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2021 into 2022 OFFSEASON News and Notes


RandomFan

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2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Eh, I'm not ready to absolve Har_en of blame.  Rockets did absolutely nothing without his blessing.

I think the bottom line for me is that I'm not a fan of Har_en so he won't get the benefit of the doubt from me.

I do think you have a fair recollection of the events in question though.

Im not a fan of either really. I just remember when all of this got started thinking,  Giannis is not this picture perfect guy people make him out be, at least as it relates to Harden specifically.

I'm the same with Curry. I never rooted for Lebron until that series when he was down 3-1. Curry was doing the most with his antics, throwing his mouthpiece and stuff. That's when I flipped and was like, I don't care what the media says, this guys is kind of a jerk, and Lebron would have been dragged if he did the same thing (at the time). I was really happy that the Cavs were able to come back and win that series. Warriors just rubbed me the wrong way from that point on.

I try to be objective, and I tend to play devils advocate a lot. When too many people agree is when I start asking more questions.

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12 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Im not a fan of either really. I just remember when all of this got started thinking,  Giannis is not this picture perfect guy people make him out be, at least as it relates to Harden specifically.

I'm the same with Curry. I never rooted for Lebron until that series when he was down 3-1. Curry was doing the most with his antics, throwing his mouthpiece and stuff. That's when I flipped and was like, I don't care what the media says, this guys is kind of a jerk, and Lebron would have been dragged if he did the same thing (at the time). I was really happy that the Cavs were able to come back and win that series. Warriors just rubbed me the wrong way from that point on.

I try to be objective, and I tend to play devils advocate a lot. When too many people agree is when I start asking more questions.

It's funny that we agree totally on sCurry but not on Giannis.

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This is a very very detailed article about what Lowry's addition is going to do for the Heat. Those thinking that he isn't going to move the needle much for then might want to reconsider. Health permitting, I think the Heat have joined the Hawks, Bucks, and Nets as legitimate contenders for the #1 seed this year. 

https://theanalyst.com/na/2021/08/can-kyle-lowrys-arrival-help-the-heat-re-emerge-as-a-contender/

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4 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

This is a very very detailed article about what Lowry's addition is going to do for the Heat. Those thinking that he isn't going to move the needle much for then might want to reconsider. Health permitting, I think the Heat have joined the Hawks, Bucks, and Nets as legitimate contenders for the #1 seed this year. 

https://theanalyst.com/na/2021/08/can-kyle-lowrys-arrival-help-the-heat-re-emerge-as-a-contender/

Do you hate me, RandoFan?  Do you want me to hate you?

You postin' all this Heat propaganda from some rando analyst.  I'll say it again, Lowry's being vastly overrated and I can't understand why.

The Heat will be a solid team.  Not markedly better than they were.  If they have any injuries, they may not make the playoffs.

Book it.

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4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Do you hate me, RandoFan?  Do you want me to hate you?

You postin' all this Heat propaganda from some rando analyst.  I'll say it again, Lowry's being vastly overrated and I can't understand why.

The Heat will be a solid team.  Not markedly better than they were.  If they have any injuries, they may not make the playoffs.

Book it.

Well, that's just like, your opinion, man. 😂

Chill out and go watch The Big Lebowski. You'll thank us later. 

Edited by RandomFan
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55 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

This is a very very detailed article about what Lowry's addition is going to do for the Heat. Those thinking that he isn't going to move the needle much for then might want to reconsider. Health permitting, I think the Heat have joined the Hawks, Bucks, and Nets as legitimate contenders for the #1 seed this year. 

https://theanalyst.com/na/2021/08/can-kyle-lowrys-arrival-help-the-heat-re-emerge-as-a-contender/

I agree with @kg01 on this.  Lowry isn't that much of an upgrade over Dragic.  The Heat's problem last year wasn't their defense. I believe they were one of the top defenses last year.  It was their offense.  What have the Heat done to vastly improve their offense?  Does Lowry move the needle that much for them there?  There is no way they should be in the same sentence as Bucks and Nets.  

Also, didn't you fear the Knicks last year? I couldn't remember if it was you or Reddawg#8. I honestly get you two mixed up..lol

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32 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I agree with @kg01 on this.  Lowry isn't that much of an upgrade over Dragic.  The Heat's problem last year wasn't their defense. I believe they were one of the top defenses last year.  It was their offense.  What have the Heat done to vastly improve their offense?  Does Lowry move the needle that much for them there?  There is no way they should be in the same sentence as Bucks and Nets.  

From what I'm gathering, none of the dissenters are going to actually read the article; since that very question was discussed - in excruciating detail. 

32 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Also, didn't you fear the Knicks last year? I couldn't remember if it was you or Reddawg#8. I honestly get you two mixed up..lol

HEEEEEEAAAAAAAAYYYYYY!!!

Why I oughta!

the-three.gif

I don't really remember how I felt or what I said about the Knicks, so I can't say for sure if that was me or not. I don't feel like I was especially concerned about them, meaning I'd lean towards that wasn't me. But I honestly don't care enough to search and find out. Especially since it has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of this discussion. 

Edited by RandomFan
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14 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

From what I'm gathering, none of the dissenters are going to actually read the article; since that very question was discussed - in excruciating detail. 

HEEEEEEAAAAAAAAYYYYYY!!!

Why I oughta!

the-three.gif

I don't really remember how I felt or what I said about the Knicks, so I can't say for sure if that was me or not. I don't feel like I was especially concerned about them, meaning I'd lean towards that wasn't me. But I honestly don't care enough to search and find out. Especially since it has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of this discussion. 

It does in the sense that you may tend to overrate the competition. Also, there is no need for me to go read the article when I know what Lowry will bring to the Heat and what the Heats biggest issues were last year. 

Knowing that, they are in the same tier as Chicago in my opinion. I don't see them as serious threats of coming out of the East.

Now if Bam and the other young guys catch lightning in a bottle again, then Miami may have a shot at the 4th seed and a second round exit. 

I fear Charlotte more than the heat.

Not saying your opinion is wrong or anything. I just hate how the media is hyping up these geriatric teams.

 

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5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Also, there is no need for me to go read the article when I know what Lowry will bring to the Heat and what the Heats biggest issues were last year. 

obama-wtf.gif

Nobody is gonna force you to read it, but as I said before if that is the opinion you currently hold about Lowry you might want to give it a read since it's clear you aren't seeing the same things the author is seeing. And who knows if he's right or wrong, maybe you know more than that author does after all. But if someone wants to have some intellectual honesty in critiquing a position, all sides and all information should be considered. 

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21 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

obama-wtf.gif

Nobody is gonna force you to read it, but as I said before if that is the opinion you currently hold about Lowry you might want to give it a read since it's clear you aren't seeing the same things the author is seeing. And who knows if he's right or wrong, maybe you know more than that author does after all. But if someone wants to have some intellectual honesty in critiquing a position, all sides and all information should be considered. 

You are correct and this isn't intellectual. Nothing in that article is. It s sports and people are making guesses, albeit some more educated than others. Reading that article won't change my mind. 

If we were having a debate about solving real world problems, for sure I'd be trying to get the best information. 

We can revisit this discussion when Miami is in the play in at the end of next season.

EDIT: I'm also a Heat hater so not acting like I'm being objective.

 

Edited by marco102
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@RandomFan I gave the article a read. What specifically in there makes you think the Heat are on the same tier as the Bucks and Nets?  There was no new information in there for me about Lowry.  

I noticed they talked about Lowry's pull shooting since 2018.  Did they talk about the decline in it last year?  Did they talk about his overall decline last year? 

The article did not.  It talks about how the Heat supposedly will run these actions and Lowry will be much much improved.  I don't see it because Lowry's 35 and he started to show he was 35 last year.  

Edit:  Full disclosure and hater glasses off.  Lowry did improve his three point shooting last season not sure if that's due to more spot ups or off the dribble shooting.  However, the point still stands that Lowry was not as impactful last season as the previous seasons.

 

Edited by marco102
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1 hour ago, marco102 said:

@RandomFan I gave the article a read. What specifically in there makes you think the Heat are on the same tier as the Bucks and Nets?  There was no new information in there for me about Lowry.  

I noticed they talked about Lowry's pull shooting since 2018.  Did they talk about the decline in it last year?  Did they talk about his overall decline last year? 

The article did not.  It talks about how the Heat supposedly will run these actions and Lowry will be much much improved.  I don't see it because Lowry's 35 and he started to show he was 35 last year.  

Edit:  Full disclosure and hater glasses off.  Lowry did improve his three point shooting last season not sure if that's due to more spot ups or off the dribble shooting.  However, the point still stands that Lowry was not as impactful last season as the previous seasons.

 

Seems to me the article talked about the Heat being able to run those actions with Lowry as opposed to not being able to do them with their previous roster last year, not that Lowry will improve. They were talking about better fit, thicker playbook because of that fit, not individual player improvement. You are usually one of the more level-headed posters around here, but I think you might just have your hater glasses on too tight here bro.

🤷‍♂️

Like you suggested though, we'll see soon enough. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Seems to me the article talked about the Heat being able to run those actions with Lowry as opposed to not being able to do them with their previous roster last year, not that Lowry will improve. They were talking about better fit, thicker playbook because of that fit, not individual player improvement. You are usually one of the more level-headed posters around here, but I think you might just have your hater glasses on too tight here bro.

🤷‍♂️

Like you suggested though, we'll see soon enough. 

 

 

I'm still being very reasonable. I just don't see the Lowry addition putting Miami in a tier with the Bucks and Nets. I'm trying to understand what about that addition makes you believe that. 

Yes, they may be able to run more stuff, but will they run it successfully? I don't see it. Lowry just doesn't move the needle for me. No one's  talking about Jimmy's decline last season either. 

I see Miami being in the 6th seed conversation with Boston, Indiana, New York, and Chicago.  Nothing about Miami screams they are better than those teams to me.  They sure as heck don't have the star power of the Nets or depth of the Bucks and Hawks.  

I'm not saying Lowry won't make them better. He just won't move the needle to Championship contender in my opinion.  

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I think you and I just have a very different opinion of how close to contender status Miami already was before Lowry. Granted, I seem to be higher on Bam than most on this site seem to be, while acknowledging this site is the anomaly because most other NBA circles give Bam his due. Of those teams you listed fighting for the 6th seed he is the best player on any of those teams. Put that with a still star level Jimmy Butler, the best coaching staff in the East, the underrated addition of PJ Tucker (which weakens MKE), the other pieces they have, and now Lowry (even an aging one) and I think it's wishful thinking to believe they aren't going to be jockeying for a top spot alongside us, the Bucks, and the Nets. The real wildcard is Oladipo. We're assuming he gives them next to nothing due to his injuries, but what if he surprises everyone and actually gives them something? 

Another thing, if this was a video game with injuries turned off then nobody is competing with the Nets. Not the Bucks, not us, not the Lakers, nobody. But this is real life, and I think most of us have doubts that the Nets can make it to and thru the playoffs fully healthy. I also notice you keep saying "a tier with the Nets and Bucks" and leaving the Hawks out; notwithstanding my assertion about the Nets being better on paper than everyone, you seem to be suggesting the Nets and Bucks are in the top tier -- are you saying you don't think the Hawks are on their level?

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12 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

I think you and I just have a very different opinion of how close to contender status Miami already was before Lowry.

I don't see it.  They finished 40-32 last year, 9 games back of the top seed and they had significantly fewer injuries than the Hawks and Nets. Now they are getting older as a team so you'd figure the injuries will catch up to them even more in the coming years.  Even if they don't, hard to see them getting significantly better relative to Nets and Hawks whom each had significantly more injuries this year than the Heat and yet still finished with better records.  

My skepticism is less about Lowry and more about an aging Jimmy Butler.   I just don't think he's as good as he's been in the past.  If Bam is the best player on the Heat, they aren't winning the East, imo.  

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54 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

I think you and I just have a very different opinion of how close to contender status Miami already was before Lowry. Granted, I seem to be higher on Bam than most on this site seem to be, while acknowledging this site is the anomaly because most other NBA circles give Bam his due. Of those teams you listed fighting for the 6th seed he is the best player on any of those teams. Put that with a still star level Jimmy Butler, the best coaching staff in the East, the underrated addition of PJ Tucker (which weakens MKE), the other pieces they have, and now Lowry (even an aging one) and I think it's wishful thinking to believe they aren't going to be jockeying for a top spot alongside us, the Bucks, and the Nets. The real wildcard is Oladipo. We're assuming he gives them next to nothing due to his injuries, but what if he surprises everyone and actually gives them something? 

Another thing, if this was a video game with injuries turned off then nobody is competing with the Nets. Not the Bucks, not us, not the Lakers, nobody. But this is real life, and I think most of us have doubts that the Nets can make it to and thru the playoffs fully healthy. I also notice you keep saying "a tier with the Nets and Bucks" and leaving the Hawks out; notwithstanding my assertion about the Nets being better on paper than everyone, you seem to be suggesting the Nets and Bucks are in the top tier -- are you saying you don't think the Hawks are on their level?

We don't have a misunderstanding. I can tell you how close Miami was to contender status.  They were the sixth seed 1 game behind the Hawks with the exact same roster that was swept out the playoffs. The only major acquisition was the addition of Lowry.  Oladipo very well could be a wildcard, but I'll fear him when I see him healthy and contributing consistently.  

I like Bam and he's a very good player, but he's no where near a number one option on a championship team.  Matter of fact, do Miami have a number one option?  Here are the Miami stars against the bucks. 

Bam

Postseason
 
DATE OPP RESULT MIN FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Sat 5/29 vsMILMIL 35 10-17 58.8 0-0 0.0 0-0 0.0 14 4 1 1 3 4 20
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 4
Thu 5/27 vsMILMIL 32 7-14 50.0 0-0 0.0 3-3 100.0 8 4 1 1 2 2 17
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 3
Mon 5/24 @MILMIL 29 5-11 45.5 0-0 0.0 6-9 66.7 3 4 0 0 1 4 16
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 2
Sat 5/22 @MILMIL 41 4-15 26.7 0-0 0.0 1-1 100.0 12 5 0 3 5 1 9
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 1
CONFERENCE QUARTERFINALS 34.3 6.5-14.3 45.3 0.0-0.0 0.0 2.5-3.3 66.7 9.3 4.3 0.5 1.3 2.8 2.8 15.5

 

Jimmy 

Postseason
 
DATE OPP RESULT MIN FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Sat 5/29 vsMILMIL 38 4-15 26.7 0-2 0.0 4-4 100.0 10 10 0 0 0 0 12
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 4
Thu 5/27 vsMILMIL 38 7-17 41.2 2-4 50.0 3-4 75.0 8 6 0 1 3 2 19
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 3
Mon 5/24 @MILMIL 32 4-10 40.0 0-0 0.0 2-4 50.0 2 4 0 2 1 1 10
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 2
Sat 5/22 @MILMIL 46 4-22 18.2 2-9 22.2 7-10 70.0 10 8 1 2 2 6 17
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 1
CONFERENCE QUARTERFINALS 38.5 4.8-16.0 31.5 1.0-3.8 18.1 4.0-5.5 73.8 7.5 7.0 0.3 1.3 1.5 2.3 14.5

Small sample size and all those are terrible numbers.  Hell Cam Reddish played better against the Bucks than these two. Julius Randle put up better numbers on better efficiency than Jimmy and was clowned for his first post season appearance. I believe he also put up better numbers than Bam. 

Objectively I see it like this in tiers. 

1. Nets

2 Bucks, Hawks, Sixers

3. Miami, Boston, New York, Indiana, Charlotte, and Chicago

The Bucks are Champs and so when discussing them I put them in the same tier as the Nets. 

The Nets have the most talented team and if healthy, I don't see any team stopping them, including the Hawks.  Will the Hawks put up a good fight?  Yup.

 I put the Hawks in the same tier with the 76ers and probably would have Milwaukee there if they didn't just beat us and win a championship. 

I think the Hawks are legit championship contenders and I only see a fully healthy Nets being able to beat them if the Hawks are playing their best.  I'm not going to disrespect the Bucks and their Championship run, though.  So yes, the Bucks, Nets and then Hawks.  

You can be high on Miami. That's fine.  I just don't understand why you think it's egregious  for me to think they are not contenders.  They weren't contenders last season and weren't even relevant the seasons before their bubble run.

Looking at their roster and Lowry, I just don't see  a NBA championship roster.  Lowry isn't on the same level as a Chris Paul, so I don't see him having the type of impact Paul did at his age on the Suns.  PJ Tucker isn't going to help them offensively which is where the Heat struggle last year.  

The way I see Miami contending is their young players making leaps. If Bam turns into a top two way player, Robinson  and Herro go nuclear from three,  they may move up into the tier with the Hawks and 76ers. 

Edited by marco102
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9 hours ago, marco102 said:

We don't have a misunderstanding. I can tell you how close Miami was to contender status.  They were the sixth seed 1 game behind the Hawks with the exact same roster that was swept out the playoffs. The only major acquisition was the addition of Lowry.  Oladipo very well could be a wildcard, but I'll fear him when I see him healthy and contributing consistently.  

I like Bam and he's a very good player, but he's no where near a number one option on a championship team.  Matter of fact, do Miami have a number one option?  Here are the Miami stars against the bucks. 

Bam

Postseason
 
DATE OPP RESULT MIN FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Sat 5/29 vsMILMIL 35 10-17 58.8 0-0 0.0 0-0 0.0 14 4 1 1 3 4 20
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 4
Thu 5/27 vsMILMIL 32 7-14 50.0 0-0 0.0 3-3 100.0 8 4 1 1 2 2 17
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 3
Mon 5/24 @MILMIL 29 5-11 45.5 0-0 0.0 6-9 66.7 3 4 0 0 1 4 16
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 2
Sat 5/22 @MILMIL 41 4-15 26.7 0-0 0.0 1-1 100.0 12 5 0 3 5 1 9
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 1
CONFERENCE QUARTERFINALS 34.3 6.5-14.3 45.3 0.0-0.0 0.0 2.5-3.3 66.7 9.3 4.3 0.5 1.3 2.8 2.8 15.5

 

Jimmy 

Postseason
 
DATE OPP RESULT MIN FG FG% 3PT 3P% FT FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
Sat 5/29 vsMILMIL 38 4-15 26.7 0-2 0.0 4-4 100.0 10 10 0 0 0 0 12
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 4
Thu 5/27 vsMILMIL 38 7-17 41.2 2-4 50.0 3-4 75.0 8 6 0 1 3 2 19
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 3
Mon 5/24 @MILMIL 32 4-10 40.0 0-0 0.0 2-4 50.0 2 4 0 2 1 1 10
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 2
Sat 5/22 @MILMIL 46 4-22 18.2 2-9 22.2 7-10 70.0 10 8 1 2 2 6 17
EAST 1ST ROUND - GAME 1
CONFERENCE QUARTERFINALS 38.5 4.8-16.0 31.5 1.0-3.8 18.1 4.0-5.5 73.8 7.5 7.0 0.3 1.3 1.5 2.3 14.5

Small sample size and all those are terrible numbers.  Hell Cam Reddish played better against the Bucks than these two. Julius Randle put up better numbers on better efficiency than Jimmy and was clowned for his first post season appearance. I believe he also put up better numbers than Bam. 

Objectively I see it like this in tiers. 

1. Nets

2 Bucks, Hawks, Sixers

3. Miami, Boston, New York, Indiana, Charlotte, and Chicago

The Bucks are Champs and so when discussing them I put them in the same tier as the Nets. 

The Nets have the most talented team and if healthy, I don't see any team stopping them, including the Hawks.  Will the Hawks put up a good fight?  Yup.

 I put the Hawks in the same tier with the 76ers and probably would have Milwaukee there if they didn't just beat us and win a championship. 

I think the Hawks are legit championship contenders and I only see a fully healthy Nets being able to beat them if the Hawks are playing their best.  I'm not going to disrespect the Bucks and their Championship run, though.  So yes, the Bucks, Nets and then Hawks.  

You can be high on Miami. That's fine.  I just don't understand why you think it's egregious  for me to think they are not contenders.  They weren't contenders last season and weren't even relevant the seasons before their bubble run.

Looking at their roster and Lowry, I just don't see  a NBA championship roster.  Lowry isn't on the same level as a Chris Paul, so I don't see him having the type of impact Paul did at his age on the Suns.  PJ Tucker isn't going to help them offensively which is where the Heat struggle last year.  

The way I see Miami contending is their young players making leaps. If Bam turns into a top two way player, Robinson  and Herro go nuclear from three,  they may move up into the tier with the Hawks and 76ers. 

I put it as: 

Tier 1:  Bucks, Nets

Tier 2: Hawks, Sixers

Tier 3: Heat

Tier 4:  Celtics, NY

Tier 5:  Bulls, Bobcats, Pacers

 

I think the Heat are a lock for the playoffs and a decent seed assuming they don’t get wrecked by unexpected injuries.

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