Backup PG

[sillent]

Travis Schlenk has done a genius job with putting this team together. As long as nothing ridiculous happens with JC's situation we should be able to retain him. That leaves us with starters (by next seasons end)

PG Trae Young

SG Cam Reddish 

SF DeAndre Hunter

PF John Collins 

C Onyeka Okongwu 

 

Travis said in this years draft he would be looking to solidify the backup PG position. At pick 20 and for a backup role my personal favorite choice is Miles "Duece" McBride. I would not be opposed to Sharife Cooper or Tre Mann either which makes it perfect timing to choose a backup for Trae because there are so many good options.

Miles McBride plays on both sides of the floor, can distribute and/or get his own shot and most importantly might be comfortable being our backup without disturbances or wanting to change his role. We'd then have a bench consisting of

PG Miles "Duece" McBride

SG Bogdan Bogdanovic

SF Kevin Huerter 

PF Danilo Gallinari 

C Clint Capela 

Remember atleast 3 of these players were our starters mostly last year. With a bench this deep we should definitely be able to get even further especially since the chemistry and skills should continue to grow. Both guards would compliment their lineups and vice versa with their style of play and we may still have a deep reserve bench as well

PG Lou Will/ Brandon Goodwin (possibly)

SG Skylar Mays

SF Solomon Hill (possibly/definitely earned it from regular season/locker room presence)

PF Nathan Knight

C Bruno Fernando 

[* two way possibly our 2nd round draft]

I wouldn't be opposed to getting Ariel Hukporti if available and make him one of our 2way players.

 

Either way it's hard to see us losing finding a backup PG in this draft even at pick #20 & I have to once again commend Travis for his timing and the way he has built this team.

Who do you all think would be the best backup guard in the draft for this team?

[Diesel]

I'd be happy coming out of the draft with:

 

Tre Mann and Luka Garza. 

 

[capstone21]

A rookie is not the answer to our vet backup point guard woes

[sillent]

4 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

A rookie is not the answer to our vet backup point guard woes

Which is why I think we keep Goodwin and/or Lou Will as well as Skylar Mays. 

Also we tend to get young players that are pretty good at contributing right away and there are some serviceable rookie PG's in this draft to have one locked up for the future. In my opinion Sharife Cooper, Tre Mann and Miles McBride are great options and McBride is one we may be able to keep long term for the future and add a different dynamic than what Trae brings.

Dunn is definitely not the answer and I expect us to trade him for a second round pick after he resigns.

Also we have capable ball handlers in Bogi, Huerter and Cam until the rookie is ready to man that roll.

[Sothron]

Lou Will wants to come back to the Hawks on a multi year deal.

 

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/7/7/22567021/report-lou-williams-looking-for-multi-year-deal-interest-in-returning-atlanta-hawks-nba-free-agency?utm_campaign=peachtreehoops&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

 

[NBASupes]

Sharife Cooper is my guy but Atlanta is going to choose who the like the most long term that wants to be here and I don't know who that is.

[NBASupes]

19 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Lou Will wants to come back to the Hawks on a multi year deal.

 

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/7/7/22567021/report-lou-williams-looking-for-multi-year-deal-interest-in-returning-atlanta-hawks-nba-free-agency?utm_campaign=peachtreehoops&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

 

Ugh! He had way too many bad games compared to the good ones

He's basically Flip Murray 

Edited July 7, 2021 by NBASupes

[hawkman]

59 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Lou Will wants to come back to the Hawks on a multi year deal.

 

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2021/7/7/22567021/report-lou-williams-looking-for-multi-year-deal-interest-in-returning-atlanta-hawks-nba-free-agency?utm_campaign=peachtreehoops&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 

 

I like Lou, but not as a primary backup PG or on a multi year deal unless it's cheap. Unfortunately, we got Lou back a few years too late. He can still play but he's not the consistent scoring threat he used to be. 

[bleachkit]

3 hours ago, sillent said:

Travis Schlenk has done a genius job with putting this team together. As long as nothing ridiculous happens with JC's situation we should be able to retain him. That leaves us with starters (by next seasons end)

PG Trae Young

SG Cam Reddish 

SF DeAndre Hunter

PF John Collins 

C Onyeka Okongwu 

 

Travis said in this years draft he would be looking to solidify the backup PG position. At pick 20 and for a backup role my personal favorite choice is Miles "Duece" McBride. I would not be opposed to Sharife Cooper or Tre Mann either which makes it perfect timing to choose a backup for Trae because there are so many good options.

Miles McBride plays on both sides of the floor, can distribute and/or get his own shot and most importantly might be comfortable being our backup without disturbances or wanting to change his role. We'd then have a bench consisting of

PG Miles "Duece" McBride

SG Bogdan Bogdanovic

SF Kevin Huerter 

PF Danilo Gallinari 

C Clint Capela 

Remember atleast 3 of these players were our starters mostly last year. With a bench this deep we should definitely be able to get even further especially since the chemistry and skills should continue to grow. Both guards would compliment their lineups and vice versa with their style of play and we may still have a deep reserve bench as well

PG Lou Will/ Brandon Goodwin (possibly)

SG Skylar Mays

SF Solomon Hill (possibly/definitely earned it from regular season/locker room presence)

PF Nathan Knight

C Bruno Fernando 

[* two way possibly our 2nd round draft]

I wouldn't be opposed to getting Ariel Hukporti if available and make him one of our 2way players.

 

Either way it's hard to see us losing finding a backup PG in this draft even at pick #20 & I have to once again commend Travis for his timing and the way he has built this team.

Who do you all think would be the best backup guard in the draft for this team?

I dont see Bogi going to the bench. Cam will have to really be consistent to take his spot.

[Marvin24Williams]

We definitely need one. I want to keep Lou Williams but I don’t like him in the backup pg role. He’s more of an instant offense look for his own offense guy. Need to play him with a PG who will do the job of setting other guys up. Not quite sure whose available, but Goodwin should be kept as insurance. He has his limitations, but he has shown he can fill in nicely at times if needed 

[sillent]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

I dont see Bogi going to the bench. Cam will have to really be consistent to take his spot.

Cam and DeAndre were both drafted specifically for Trae's deficiencies on the defensive end. They also both have star potential. As good as Bogi's shooting might be his defensive upside won't ever be as good as there's and when you have 2 defensive liabilities (as we saw many times with Milwaukee) it can hinder your team when you're scouted in the postseason.

With a PG like Miles McBride Bogi and Huerter coming off the bench all of their defense is highly improved especially verses players they would be matched up against off of the bench. I'm looking long term.

[bird_dirt]

I prefer a good vet as bu pg. Drafting a no. 3 pg to replace BG would be ok though. 

I'm scared to death of what might happen if Trae ever misses an extended amount of time. 

I'd love to try to get Dinwiddie here somehow. I think he could get minutes backing up and playing alongside Trae. And I would feel confident if he has to take over the team if the unfortunate does happen.

It might take a sign and trade of Bogie to get that done though. 

[cam1218]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Ugh! He had way too many bad games compared to the good ones

He's basically Flip Murray 

I feel you, but it is really Flip with leadership. I don’t like the two year deal for him. I’m hoping we get guys some rest next year throughout the season and he’s shown he can help get us some wins here and there - so there is value there.

[sillent]

48 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

I prefer a good vet as bu pg. Drafting a no. 3 pg to replace BG would be ok though. 

I'm scared to death of what might happen if Trae ever misses an extended amount of time. 

I'd love to try to get Dinwiddie here somehow. I think he could get minutes backing up and playing alongside Trae. And I would feel confident if he has to take over the team if the unfortunate does happen.

It might take a sign and trade of Bogie to get that done though. 

I like Spencer myself. I just don't think we'll have as much room in free agency as we've had in the past because now we have to spend money keeping who we have. It's cheaper to keep drafting good than pay any worthwhile free agents right now in our position.

[Alex]

Didn’t Lou contemplate retirement after he was traded here?  He had a big game 4 in the ECF, but a multi year deal for him is a hard pass.

[bleachkit]

7 minutes ago, Alex said:

Didn’t Lou contemplate retirement after he was traded here?  He had a big game 4 in the ECF, but a multi year deal for him is a hard pass.

One year deal vet minimum. No guarantee of minutes either. 

[marco102]

I'd bring back Lou and draft Tre Man. That way the young guy can have that mentor and as he gets more experience can take over. 

https://www.thestepien.com/2021/05/12/compensation-kings-redefining-athleticism-with-mann-and-springer/

Quote

Tre Mann, Shaking and Baking

Some prospects are simply greater than the sum of their parts, and Tre Mann fits the bill. He sports a slender frame, lacks noteworthy straight line speed and hasn’t recorded a dunk all year. Despite all those traditional limitations, Mann has a unique arsenal of microskills and traits that all work in conjunction with each other. The end product is a shifty and electrifying lead guard that can provide ample value as a shot creator in the half court. I want to start off by diving into how he creates advantages on the ball, because I think that’s the most accurate way to portray his plethora of tools. It’s no secret that Mann has an elite handle, but the way he moves his primary defenders goes way beyond strictly that. In the words of the great Isaac Newton, every action has a reaction. Applying that theory to the lens of Tre Mann would sound something like this: every dribble move has a precursor that amplifies the effectiveness of the actual move that follows. Whether it’s a short acceleration to sell a downhill drive before snatching back, or a slight shoulder dip one way that gets his defender leaning before crossing them back into a ball screen, Mann has it all. Possessing an elite handle is much more complex than ball control and the ability to pull off combos. In its simplest form, it’s about deceiving the defender of one thing before hitting them with something completely different, and few prospects can deceive POA defenders better than Mann.

 

He is very potent as a ball screen handler and a major reason for that is that he properly sets them up. In both of these clips you’ll see the precursor move that I mentioned above, where he gets the defender leaning one way prior to going off the screen, making their recovery back to him nearly impossible. The first clip shows Mann in the open floor, where his combination of pace, quick twitch movements and ball control make him an absolute nightmare, but he’s no slouch against a set defense. The latter clip shows him against Keon Johnson, who is undoubtedly one of the best POA defenders in the class and a lateral quickness extraordinaire. Getting your defender to the level of the screen and going shoulder-to-shoulder might seem like an elementary concept, but when done correctly, it yields indisputable results. Mann doesn’t exactly do it the way they teach you in the early stages of hoop, but he adds his own flair. While he is certainly very competent operating in the PnR, he doesn’t *need* a ball screen to knife into the defense and draw help. I’ve already noted that Mann lacks typical straight line burst, but he is a maestro when it comes to changing speeds and synching subtle, yet meaningful, footwork details with his combos.

In semi transition, Mann absolutely dusts his defender with what on the surface might seem like a simple crossover. When you dig a little deeper, he leads up with a handful of small movements that get his defender to bite. First, he slows up to bait his man out onto the perimeter. Then, he leads with a wide-receiver stutter step to get him on his toes, before violently synching his cross with a hard left-footed jab. Everything about this possession screams “hesi straight line drive to the left” before the final plant, and that’s all part of Mann’s genius. It might not be the type of manipulation that some are used to, but it should absolutely be admired in the same fashion. Remember the title, Compensation Kings? Mann lacks the blistering speed that some guys are lucky enough to possess, but he compensates and consistently creates advantages with his handle, pace and one-of-one movement skills. 

Along with his handle, Mann’s calling card is his shooting, with an emphasis on self created looks. According to barttorvik, Mann drained 40.2% of his threes while just 31.9% of them were assisted. For reference, that unassisted rate is historically off the charts and practically unheard of. In my database last year, which included 100 “draftable” prospects, Jordan Ford had the lowest assisted rate at 44.4%. Mann checks in 12 percentage points lower! Trae Young was the prospect I could find that had a lower assisted rate (26.3%) than Mann, but he wasn’t as efficient. The first rule of evaluating shooting is that not all percentages are created equally. On the surface, shooting 40% on his volume (4.7 attempts per game) is very impressive and would likely point towards an optimistic shooting outlook. Then, when you consider the load and average degree of difficulty on each of these attempts, it starts to become feasible that Mann might just be an elite shooter and shot maker. The Florida native has parking lot range, and aside from that being a valuable microskill, it also helps open up the rest of his game.

Nothing crazy, it’s just your typical logo pull up 45 seconds into a March Madness game! Mann is truly fearless as a shooter, and can get hot in an instant. It’s been well documented that first step and speed aren’t his specialty, which makes it that much more valuable that defenders are forced to pick him up so early once he crosses half court. Instead of being forced to rely on his handle and crafty tricks in tight spaces, Mann can lure defenders into space, where he kills them with his stop-start engine and NBA Street-esque combos. You might’ve taken a quick note of his shooting mechanics from the clip above, and they absolutely give him a unique edge. Mann has always been a quick trigger guard since his AAU days, but his newfound height seriously elevates the functionality of his mechanics. He has never been one to need much time and space to load up, and now standing at 6’5”, he sports a uniquely high release point and quick trigger follow through that play off one another like peanut butter and jelly. This gives Mann access to windows that other gunners couldn’t typically take advantage of, and puts even more pressure on the defense to keep track of him at all times.

In the clip above we saw him punish under coverage with ease. In this one, VT is going to hit him with a flat hedge. It stunts his momentum at the point of the screen, but notice the slight error in exchange between the big and the guard while recovering, and that window is all Mann needs to make them pay. Between the no-hitch and smooth transition from set point to release, Mann offers a ton of shooting versatility. Due to the heavy load of on ball usage he was tasked with, we didn’t really see what he could do if used as a movement shooter off the ball. Granted, most of his value will likely come from the on-ball creation that he currently brings to the table, but I still think movement shooting might be another feasible way for him to provide value down the line. I’ve somewhat been beating around the bush up to this point, so let’s dive into his space creation. We already hit on his otherworldly handle and pace, along with the impressive shooting results and versatility, just imagine when they work directly together.

As I’m sure you could imagine, the results are downright criminal. This move seems to be a trademark of his, as it combines his change of pace, precise footwork and ball control to create an abundance of space like it’s nothing. Again, we see the shoulder raise, slight explosion and then a hard plant that’s perfectly synched with his snatchback. For defenders, Mann is truly putting them in position Z. If you don’t react to the drive, he’ll slither into the lane. If you react to the drive, he’ll counter with an instant stepback. Mann’s ability to set up and execute combos while also simultaneously reading and taking what the defense gives him is noteworthy. His bag is incredibly deep, and that allows him to act without premeditation. The percentages are there. The volume is there. The versatility is there. What more could you ask for?

Thus far I’ve praised Mann for his athletic compensation, but finishing is probably the area where it hinders him the most. This isn’t to say he’s a bad finisher, because he’s not, but his physical limitations certainly force him into more inefficient looks and cause tougher finishing avenues around the rim. In the half court, he converted 53.5% of his shots at the rim, which ranks in the 45th percentile nationally. Not great, but still manageable. Finishing at the basket and putting pressure on the rim will never be where Mann provides value, but it’s still necessary for guards to be able to get there in order to maintain an efficient offensive profile. Most notably, his lack of vertical explosion is at the forefront of his issues around the rim. As I mentioned before, he is yet to record a college dunk, and that also trickles down into layup attempts that should be more routine than they are.

After getting a step on Culver, this should be a traditional reverse finish for someone with Mann’s size and length. I like his plan to use the rim as a shield on the trailing big, but any ounce of vertical pop that he does have betrayed him on this attempt. Since he isn’t able to explode up at all, it leaves him with an extremely tough angle. He tries to extend and expand on that thin angle, but it’s to no avail. Mann has buttery touch and impressive creativity at the rim, and I’ll expand on both of those later, but sometimes it’s not enough to overcome the lack of explosion. These issues especially rear their head in traffic, where his slender frame doesn’t exactly make things easier in terms of getting up in traffic. However, this piece is all about picking up slack in other areas, and Mann does just that.

Both of these clips epitomize how he wins deep inside the arc, floaters and deceptive finishes. Mann’s spatial awareness is a real plus skill and it’s evident on his floaters — as well as his pull-ups. He wastes no time attacking the drop big, and while most guards are told to use their speed to get all the way to the rim, he forces the big to flip their hips and decides that’s all he needs. Sure, in the long run, Mann will have to mix in rim attempts and free throws instead of settling for push shots on every trip, but it’s absolutely a good tool to have in your backpocket. The latter clip is one of my favorites. If you follow me on twitter, you know there’s nothing like more than a goofy leg extension finish, and this one is silky smooth. Rather than forcing his way into a rim-protector with prime position, Mann takes off earlier than expected and extends directly over the rim. For what it’s worth, this shot is not easy by any means. Also, the energy transformation and footwork are very fluid here, as he flows seamlessly from drive to finish. Due to his physical deficiencies Mann can’t win in traditional ways, but that doesn’t mean he can’t win at all, and it’s important to separate the two.

One noteworthy development that I noticed with Mann was his willingness to initiate contact. It was flash based, but still intriguing nonetheless. When given time and space to leap, this could be a viable avenue for him to finish, especially as he continues to add weight. I personally think it’s more difficult to improve the wiring to proactively throw your body into bigger defenders than it is to actually add weight, so that’s certainly a feather in Mann’s cap. His added height makes it easier to absorb the contact and he can hang the ball in space out before finishing, similar to a lacrosse player before winding up for a shot. I’m comfortable saying the rim will never be Mann’s speciality, but I’m also comfortable saying it won’t be detrimental to his game. 

 

Last but certainly not least, it’s time to dive into his playmaking. I think this probably the most complicated part of his evaluation, there are so many nuances and philosophical ideals that must be applied. There could be two scouts with identical “reports” on Mann’s passing, but could value it completely differently based on their philosophy. At this moment in time, he excels with functionality but can sometimes struggle intellectually. Weighing the two is rather difficult, especially since we don’t know what Mann’s processing curve could like down the line.

Starting off on a positive note, these two passes show how his playmaking capabilities can punish a defense. While the first play is a very simple read — since there was no tag — Mann shifting his body and wrapping around a tight bounce pass shouldn’t be swept under the rug. He won’t get credited with an assist on the latter clip, but the one handed whip pass that he snapped across the baseline sent the defense into a rotational tizzy, which ended with a layup. Mann hasn’t yet developed the ability to manipulate multiple layers of the defense into creating windows, but he can capitalize on everyone that is given to him, which is still valuable. Since the first time I watched Mann, it felt like he approached the game as a scoring guard. This year gave him no choice but to take on a heavy usage, as both a scorer and playmaker. I don’t want to give him excuses, but for someone who had a negative A:TO as a freshman, I’d argue the returns were pretty good. However, he certainly wasn’t perfect, and there is definitely room for improvement.

His reluctance to look beyond his first read can sometimes cost him. Here are two instances where Mann doesn’t read the second layer of help, and forces his initial read, resulting in a turnover. On both occasions, there are clear tags and the defense visibly rotates, leaving a teammate open for a skip pass. Unfortunately, Mann does his best rookie QB impression and doesn’t go through his reads. The play against Vandy is the ultimate head-scratcher for me. It’s a rather simple tag and Pippen clearly commits, leaving a wide open shooter on the backside. I’ve often talked about positive turnovers, but these aren’t Giddey turnovers, these are processing errors. I would be naive to not acknowledge that Mann can improve this in the league, and I’m most definitely not ruling him out as a potential plus-playmaker. Instead, I’m pointing out the areas of improvement that if he can touch up on — combined with his functionality — would make him an offensive juggernaut. There are some flashes of manipulation, and while they’re done in 2v1’s instead of 5v4’s, it’s still a step in the right direction. I mentioned that Mann doesn’t necessarily create passing windows, but he is capable of holding them open. This means that he isn’t moving the defense with his eyes or ball fakes to manually create windows that weren’t previously there, but when given an opportunity, he knows how to capitalize and prevent defenders from playing two at once.

These two passes are my favorite examples of that. In the open floor, Mann uses the handle to reject and get downhill, he is then faced with a traditional 2v1 with a cutting teammate and opposing rim protector. When presented with this opportunity, he fakes the pass, then fakes the shot, before finally dropping it off for a (should’ve been) dunk. In the half court against Oral Roberts, this no look might seem like it’s flashy and unnecessary, but that couldn’t be further from the truth. On that possession, Kareem Thompson (2) has low man help responsibilities at the rim, and should be helping off the weak side shooter to do so. Mann sees Duriji creeping towards the rim, and to open up the lane, he stares down that weak side shake shooter, which forces Thompson to abort help and leaves the rim uncontested. There’s a chance that the dunk still happens if Mann delivers a typical bounce pass, but I’m not taking a result-oriented approach here. There’s a famous saying “it’s the thought that counts” and that should be applied here. One huge aspect of scouting is evaluating flashes and projecting how consistent they can be in the future. Any concrete evidence of Mann thoroughly thinking rotations through shouldn’t go overlooked, and this is one of them. His career as a playmaker in the NBA is one I’ll be following closely, and using as a valuable data point for the years to come. 

Mann is an interesting case of a high usage guard who almost certainly derives most of his value operating on the ball, yet with his shooting projection and added height, there is probably an avenue where he plays alongside other craters successfully. Regardless of what his actual role looks like, he creates and makes shots at a high level — which is the most valuable skill in basketball. There are drawbacks, as there are with every prospect, but Mann possesses a unique plethora of skills and tools that are very enticing to me. Projection aside, he has already proven that he can not only survive, but thrive, as an on-ball gunner with flashes of being much more. At 6’5” in this class, that’s someone I’m itching to take earlier than most. 

This kid is a pick and roll maestro similar to Trae.  His passing is a bit underrated and he competes on the defensive end albeit still not very good yet.  I know the above is a lot to read, but just watch the videos if you don't have time for the analysis. 

@NBASupes I like Cooper from a playmaking standpoint, but his shot mechanics are completely broken and I don't think he'll be able to contribute right away. The team will have to completely rework his shot. I could be wrong about him contributing right away. His passing is on another level, but if you can't shoot that generally doesn't work well in this NBA.  If he can get his shot mechanics fixed and he becomes a decent shooter, I'll be on board with him.

I just think Mann is a better fit with Trae because he can play along side him and he'll be able to contribute a little sooner than Cooper. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by marco102

[TheBigETrain]

I'm fine with drafting a rookie PG to replace Goodwin and bringing Lou back.

If Lou wants a multi-year deal, then the 2nd year must be a team option.

I also think a fully fit Kris Dunn will get some minutes at backup PG next season. And of course Bogi can handle some spot minutes at PG while Trae is resting.

[Spud2nique]

18 hours ago, Diesel said:

I'd be happy coming out of the draft with:

 

Tre Mann and Luka Garza. 

 

I’d be happy with 0 first round picks this year. I want vets.

10 hours ago, marco102 said:

I'd bring back Lou

Wait isn’t he retiring?

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’d be happy with 0 first round picks this year. I want vets.

Wait isn’t he retiring?

No. It's been reporting that he wants a mutliyear deal. That's why I said bring him back and draft a youngin for the long term back up position.