If Golden State is giving up Wiseman, the Hawks should be Listening.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

You believe this? 

Definitely.

 

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Aside from your dislike of Wiseman... this requires explanation.   Let me give you some points to refute....

• He has a similar Ball radius. 
• Similar size.
• Similar athletic ability
• just as good a finisher as Giannis at the same time.  (probably better). 
• Poor but bettering midrange shot (like Giannis at the same stage). 

These are not just my thoughts...

 

I think I know who made this video. He’s a season ticket holder for the Warriors. Cool dude he actually won the Warriors pizza giveaways a few time which is like hitting the lottery a few times. Lol.

 

Great guy, made a cool video, but I’m gonna go ahead and not take his word for it.

BTW, a lot of guys have physical tool, how many have the dedication and heart to get to their max potential. Giannis put in almost a decade of work. Kind of wrong for you to mention his name in the same breath as Wiseman, a dude that looks like he might be injury plagued of checked out mentally. I saw a lot of Warrior games, Draymond even saw that he wasn’t the one. 
 

Again, he may average a double double sometime, probably will, but I’m gonna make a bold statement and say that he won’t be impacting winning for a team. I just get that Melo attitude feel from him. 
 

For his sake I hope I’m wrong and he puts in work.

[Spud2nique]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Definitely.

 

The media’s full of dirty tricks. 

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

I think I know who made this video. He’s a season ticket holder for the Warriors. Cool dude he actually won the Warriors pizza giveaways a few time which is like hitting the lottery a few times. Lol.

 

Great guy, made a cool video, but I’m gonna go ahead and not take his word for it.

BTW, a lot of guys have physical tool, how many have the dedication and heart to get to their max potential. Giannis put in almost a decade of work. Kind of wrong for you to mention his name in the same breath as Wiseman, a dude that looks like he might be injury plagued of checked out mentally. I saw a lot of Warrior games, Draymond even saw that he wasn’t the one. 
 

Again, he may average a double double sometime, probably will, but I’m gonna make a bold statement and say that he won’t be impacting winning for a team. I just get that Melo attitude feel from him. 
 

For his sake I hope I’m wrong and he puts in work.

I remember Kevin Garnett telling folks Thon Maker was a future potential MVP candidate.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I think I know who made this video. He’s a season ticket holder for the Warriors. Cool dude he actually won the Warriors pizza giveaways a few time which is like hitting the lottery a few times. Lol.

 

Great guy, made a cool video, but I’m gonna go ahead and not take his word for it.

BTW, a lot of guys have physical tool, how many have the dedication and heart to get to their max potential. Giannis put in almost a decade of work. Kind of wrong for you to mention his name in the same breath as Wiseman, a dude that looks like he might be injury plagued of checked out mentally. I saw a lot of Warrior games, Draymond even saw that he wasn’t the one. 
 

Again, he may average a double double sometime, probably will, but I’m gonna make a bold statement and say that he won’t be impacting winning for a team. I just get that Melo attitude feel from him. 
 

For his sake I hope I’m wrong and he puts in work.

Well, we will have to wait and see.   But don't fault anybody for saying that player A has the potential to be the next player B...  Everybody does it and has always done it.   nbadraft.net tells you exactly who this player looks like.   How many Kobe/Jordan comparison were there when Kobe was a young player? Dwight/Shaq?  KD/KG? Miller/Kidd? Trae/Nash?

Point is... no... no player ever turns out to be a carbon copy but the skillset tells you the possibility. 

Until it's shown otherwise, I won't doubt Wiseman's potential. 

 

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, we will have to wait and see.   But don't fault anybody for saying that player A has the potential to be the next player B...  Everybody does it and has always done it.   nbadraft.net tells you exactly who this player looks like.   How many Kobe/Jordan comparison were there when Kobe was a young player? Dwight/Shaq?  KD/KG? Miller/Kidd? Trae/Nash?

Point is... no... no player ever turns out to be a carbon copy but the skillset tells you the possibility. 

Until it's shown otherwise, I won't doubt Wiseman's potential. 

 

Good point I won’t. Again he might be an awesome individual player that plays for himself like Melo and Dwight, but I also think he might be put in their category for team success as well. Yes I do realize Dwight made the finals once. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Good point I won’t. Again he might be an awesome individual player that plays for himself like Melo and Dwight, but I also think he might be put in their category for team success as well. Yes I do realize Dwight made the finals once. 

Dwight is an NBA champion!

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Dwight is an NBA champion!

So is Luc Longley.  At least Longley started.  Dwight averaged less than 3 points and 3 rebounds in the finals.  

[AHF]

The Giannis / Wiseman comparison to me seems insane.  As a player of the same age, one looked like an elite defender who had very limited offensive skills but nice tools.  The other looks clueless defensively, that he has some (so far) limited but effective tools on offense, and nice length.  I.e., Wiseman has nowhere close to the kind of All-NBA defensive projection that Giannis does so why compare them when powerful interior offensive scorers who aren't great offensively are readily available for comparison?  

[Diesel]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

The Giannis / Wiseman comparison to me seems insane.  As a player of the same age, one looked like an elite defender who had very limited offensive skills but nice tools.  The other looks clueless defensively, that he has some (so far) limited but effective tools on offense, and nice length.  I.e., Wiseman has nowhere close to the kind of All-NBA defensive projection that Giannis does so why compare them when powerful interior offensive scorers who aren't great offensively are readily available for comparison?  

 

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

So is Luc Longley.  At least Longley started.  Dwight averaged less than 3 points and 3 rebounds in the finals.  

This. Comon Diesel don’t go there. If Dwight won a title in 2010 then it would count. The one vs Kobe and the Lakers.

[RandomFan]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

While Wiseman is not the defensive player that Onyeka is yet...  He has the tools to be better. 

Bottom line...  Onyeka  = High Floor.   Wiseman = High Ceiling. 

That's your flawed opinion man. Many of us, most of us I'd wager, think OO has the higher floor AND the higher ceiling. By the way, BBIQ is a tool that OO has in spades and Wiseman doesn't even have decent defensive BBIQ; so not sure it's a sound bet to be hanging your hat on the height difference possibly overcoming that eventually.  

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is true so far.  This was never meant to be an OO vs. JW thread.  Hawks homers made it that to try to discredit Wiseman.  

Hold up, this is blatantly incorrect. OO got brought up BY YOU because you were trying to trade a pick + OO for Wiseman straight up. It started with you trying to trade a better player plus a pick for a lesser player, and several of us pointing it out how silly it was. If you overvaluing Wiseman over our own better player makes us homers, then sure, knock yourself out.    

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

But in looking at the two, Wiseman will be better in the future if the continue the same path.  Everybody sees that except Hawks fans.  We get giddy because OO can guard Giannis better than Clint did.   OK... But Wiseman will have the same abilities as Giannis in a few short years. 

 

The bolded, you don't seem to understand how inaccurate that statement is; that you are in the vast minority with that opinion, not the majority. While it's true that we won't know for several years the real outcome between the two, the majority of all basketball people, not just Hawks fans, currently seem overwhelmingly to be on the side of OO in the debate after seeing both during their rookie season. 

Either way, let's just earmark this thread and revisit it in a few or five years, and move on for now. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, RandomFan said:

That's your flawed opinion man. Many of us, most of us I'd wager, think OO has the higher floor AND the higher ceiling. By the way, BBIQ is a tool that OO has in spades and Wiseman doesn't even have decent defensive BBIQ; so not sure it's a sound bet to be hanging your hat on the height difference possibly overcoming that eventually.  

Hold up, this is blatantly incorrect. OO got brought up BY YOU because you were trying to trade a pick + OO for Wiseman straight up. It started with you trying to trade a better player plus a pick for a lesser player, and several of us pointing it out how silly it was. If you overvaluing Wiseman over our own better player makes us homers, then sure, knock yourself out.    

The bolded, you don't seem to understand how inaccurate that statement is; that you are in the vast minority with that opinion, not the majority. While it's true that we won't know for several years the real outcome between the two, the majority of all basketball people, not just Hawks fans, currently seem overwhelmingly to be on the side of OO in the debate after seeing both during their rookie season. 

Either way, let's just earmark this thread and revisit it in a few or five years, and move on for now. 

1.  yeah... That's why OO was picked ahead of Wiseman in the draft!

Oh.. Wait... He wasn't.  My Bad. 

2.  Not me.   I wanted to trade Clint and Gallo  for Wiggins and Wiseman.   Before that it was Cam and Picks for Wiseman. 

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

1.  yeah... That's why OO was picked ahead of Wiseman in the draft!

Oh.. Wait... He wasn't.  My Bad. 

2.  Not me.   I wanted to trade Clint and Gallo  for Wiggins and Wiseman.   Before that it was Cam and Picks for Wiseman. 

Are you Bob Whitsitt? Seriously

[RandomFan]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

1.  yeah... That's why OO was picked ahead of Wiseman in the draft!

Oh.. Wait... He wasn't.  My Bad. 

2.  Not me.   I wanted to trade Clint and Gallo  for Wiggins and Wiseman.   Before that it was Cam and Picks for Wiseman. 

And Bagley was picked before Trae and Doncic. That turned out great for Sac, right? Do you have a point other than providing an example of teams making mistakes before they get to see how rookies play in the actual NBA games? Which is more my point. Once the games were played it's been blatantly obvious to most that OO is a better player now than Wiseman, and a better future prospect too. I'm sorry if you just don't see it yet man. 

Give it time. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, RandomFan said:

And Bagley was picked before Trae and Doncic. That turned out great for Sac, right? Do you have a point other than providing an example of teams making mistakes before they get to see how rookies play in the actual NBA games? Which is more my point. Once the games were played it's been blatantly obvious to most that OO is a better player now than Wiseman, and a better future prospect too. I'm sorry if you just don't see it yet man. 

Give it time. 

 

Are you trying to say that Golden State's GM is just as bad as Sacramento's?  That Golden State's GM knows very little about putting together a championship team?

Yeah....

[gurpilo]

Well, I think is quite obvious Wiseman ceiling is higher than OO. The level they will achieve is a history that is still not written and it could end with OO as the better player but I think is unlikely. I have no doubt and I would switch OO for Wiseman un a heartbeat. I would even add 20th pick.

[AHF]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Are you trying to say that Golden State's GM is just as bad as Sacramento's?  That Golden State's GM knows very little about putting together a championship team?

Yeah....

If Golden State's GM believed in him the way you do, he wouldn't consider trading him.

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

 

I have no idea what these videos are supposed to be showing me.  One is a basically a fan video about how much the fan loves Wiseman.  Fine but why do I care about that anymore than the opinion of any poster here?

The second is a few limited clips from a single game.  It is nice that Wiseman had an especially good game in that 39 point loss but what am I supposed to draw from a game that was not competitive from mid-way through the 3rd quarter on?  

 

Looking at the broader data to see if Wiseman compares to early Giannis, you see that Wiseman's impact on his team: 

Golden State scored 11.9 fewer points (per 100 possessions) with Wiseman on the floor than with him out of the game and

Golden State gave up 3.8 more points (per 100 possessions) with Wiseman in the game

That is a net -15.7 points per 100 possessions.

 

By comparison, 19 year old, rookie Giannis made this impact on the Bucks:

Milwaukee scored 7.1 more points (per 100 possessions) with Giannis on the floor than with him out of the game and

Milwaukee gave up 0.8 fewer points (per 100 possessions) with Giannis in the game

That is a net +7.9 points per 100 possessions.

 

The key for Giannis who was extremely raw was that he was already an impact defender whose defensive stops led to easy offensive possessions and offensively he did nothing to disrupt the rest of the team's offensive flow.  Wiseman struggled to defend (gave up .569% efg% on 17 points and 12 rebounds per 36 minutes to his opponent) and stopped the ball a lot on offense.  

If they want to move on from him already (and my guess is they don't because he does have significant potential), it is because of how far he was from being a value add asset on either side of the floor.  As he gets more experience and his BBIQ sharpens, that will do wonders for him for sure on offense and he has the tools to improve greatly on defense if he wants it.  I question whether he wants it on defense but that is the scenario with the biggest upside.

[kg01]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Are you trying to say that Golden State's GM is just as bad as Sacramento's?  That Golden State's GM knows very little about putting together a championship team?

Yeah....

Uh, GS's current GM didn't put anything together, if we're being honest.

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

If Golden State's GM believed in him the way you do, he wouldn't consider trading him.

I have no idea what these videos are supposed to be showing me.  One is a basically a fan video about how much the fan loves Wiseman.  Fine but why do I care about that anymore than the opinion of any poster here?

The second is a few limited clips from a single game.  It is nice that Wiseman had an especially good game in that 39 point loss but what am I supposed to draw from a game that was not competitive from mid-way through the 3rd quarter on?  

 

Looking at the broader data to see if Wiseman compares to early Giannis, you see that Wiseman's impact on his team: 

Golden State scored 11.9 fewer points (per 100 possessions) with Wiseman on the floor than with him out of the game and

Golden State gave up 3.8 more points (per 100 possessions) with Wiseman in the game

That is a net -15.7 points per 100 possessions.

 

By comparison, 19 year old, rookie Giannis made this impact on the Bucks:

Milwaukee scored 7.1 more points (per 100 possessions) with Giannis on the floor than with him out of the game and

Milwaukee gave up 0.8 fewer points (per 100 possessions) with Giannis in the game

That is a net +7.9 points per 100 possessions.

 

The key for Giannis who was extremely raw was that he was already an impact defender whose defensive stops led to easy offensive possessions and offensively he did nothing to disrupt the rest of the team's offensive flow.  Wiseman struggled to defend (gave up .569% efg% on 17 points and 12 rebounds per 36 minutes to his opponent) and stopped the ball a lot on offense.  

If they want to move on from him already (and my guess is they don't because he does have significant potential), it is because of how far he was from being a value add asset on either side of the floor.  As he gets more experience and his BBIQ sharpens, that will do wonders for him for sure on offense and he has the tools to improve greatly on defense if he wants it.  I question whether he wants it on defense but that is the scenario with the biggest upside.

It's quite simple to suggest that on the floor they look different because you're talking about a Euroleague sensation versus a player that only played in 3 college games.  Yes, the technical skills at the same age would be a little different.   BUT  The skillsets are very similar and over time... You can't suggest that Wiseman is going to stay the same because no player does.  What playing in college does is it sharpens your defense and your understanding of the game.  Wiseman is getting all of that now.  Is he behind the curve... a little... but that should have been expected when he was drafted.  Also, when he was drafted they knew that he had a very good skillset and great potential.  As I have said before he has a very high ceiling.