If Golden State is giving up Wiseman, the Hawks should be Listening.

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Uh, GS's current GM didn't put anything together, if we're being honest.

B.S.

You're talking about Bob Myers?  2 time Executive of the Year Bob Myers?  Drafted Draymond Bob Myers?  Traded for Iguodala Bob Myers?  Fired Mark Jackson and Hired Steve Kerr Bob Myers? Stayed the course with Steph when others wanted to give up on him Bob Myers??  Signed Kevin Durant Bob Myers??

This is getting ridiculous!!

 

[Diesel]

Here's the litmus for you all who wanted this argument. 

Have Travis call Bob and ask him to trade OO for Wiseman straight up... and see how long it takes Bob to hang up on him. 

 

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

B.S.

You're talking about Bob Myers?  2 time Executive of the Year Bob Myers?  Drafted Draymond Bob Myers?  Traded for Iguodala Bob Myers?  Fired Mark Jackson and Hired Steve Kerr Bob Myers? Stayed the course with Steph when others wanted to give up on him Bob Myers??  Signed Kevin Durant Bob Myers??

This is getting ridiculous!!

 

You're no longer serious.  I'm out.

[AHF]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 BUT  The skillsets are very similar and over time... 

I see very little overlap.  Giannis's only skill when he entered the league was defense.  He man marked well, he had active hands and long reach, and he had great instincts.  Wiseman has none of that other than long reach.  Giannis wasn't skilled on offense and mostly just drove the ball to the hole or took an open 3.  Wiseman was assisted on almost 82% of field goals but took significantly more midrange shots than Giannis and shot them significantly better.  

So I see nothing overlapping on defense and significant differences on offense.  I see no reason to think that he won't become a more balanced, well-rounded offensive player than Giannis (don't think it is likely he will dominate in his limited lane the way Giannis does but his total impact could be similar if he hits his ceiling).  But zero reason to think his defense will approach the impact of Giannis.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I see very little overlap.  Giannis's only skill when he entered the league was defense.  He man marked well, he had active hands and long reach, and he had great instincts.  Wiseman has none of that other than long reach.  Giannis wasn't skilled on offense and mostly just drove the ball to the hole or took an open 3.  Wiseman was assisted on almost 82% of field goals but took significantly more midrange shots than Giannis and shot them significantly better.  

So I see nothing overlapping on defense and significant differences on offense.  I see no reason to think that he won't become a more balanced, well-rounded offensive player than Giannis (don't think it is likely he will dominate in his limited lane the way Giannis does but his total impact could be similar if he hits his ceiling).  But zero reason to think his defense will approach the impact of Giannis.

I would like to see him having learned where to be and floor spacing before I judge his defense like you do.  Like I said, College ball helps you with the understanding of the game.   From one perspective, he's raw on defense and has instincts of a shot blocker.  Giannis would definitely be more skilled at the same age because he had Euroleague experience and a training camp with his new team.   That's not a debate... it's a dead horse you keep beating.   What I'm saying is that long reach is important.  That timing is important.   The ability to block a shot and start a break is important.   All those things are skills that are not far from Wiseman and are things that make both Giannis and Wiseman physical freaks.  Wiseman didn't even have a training camp.  Once Wiseman plays and just learns more about where he's supposed to be on defense, then I think it will be a better comparison with Giannis (at the same age). 

[RandomFan]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

Are you trying to say that Golden State's GM is just as bad as Sacramento's?  That Golden State's GM knows very little about putting together a championship team?

Yeah....

What I AM saying and have been saying is pre-draft opinions go out the window once actual games are played, so the pre-draft opinion you are trying to prop up your argument with is not only useless but laughable that you try to use it. 

37 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Here's the litmus for you all who wanted this argument. 

Have Travis call Bob and ask him to trade OO for Wiseman straight up... and see how long it takes Bob to hang up on him. 

 

Cool. Cool. Cool. 

Now try this: have Bob call Travis and offer Wiseman for OO straight up and see how fast Darth Schlenk falls out of his chair laughing. We can both play that game of hypotheticals where neither of us really know the answer for sure. Another failed attempt to prop up your argument with an invalid premise. 

You love you some Wiseman, we get it. We really really do. You need to realize most of us out here don't feel as strongly as you do. And it's not homerism, it's a differing of opinion. 

[AHF]

26 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I would like to see him having learned where to be and floor spacing before I judge his defense like you do.  Like I said, College ball helps you with the understanding of the game.   From one perspective, he's raw on defense and has instincts of a shot blocker.  Giannis would definitely be more skilled at the same age because he had Euroleague experience and a training camp with his new team.   That's not a debate... it's a dead horse you keep beating.   What I'm saying is that long reach is important.  That timing is important.   The ability to block a shot and start a break is important.   All those things are skills that are not far from Wiseman and are things that make both Giannis and Wiseman physical freaks.  Wiseman didn't even have a training camp.  Once Wiseman plays and just learns more about where he's supposed to be on defense, then I think it will be a better comparison with Giannis (at the same age). 

You go ahead and post here when he starts guarding all 5 positions on the floor including defending shooting guards and point guards on key possessions and then we'll talk about how he has the same defensive tools as Giannis.  Beyond what I think he lacks in mobility, feel for the game is a skill.  I don't see a feel for defense from Wiseman and I don't see near the same freakish mobility in him that has allowed Giannis to guard all five positions.  

They are just worlds apart right now in terms of their impact on the floor and I am much more comfortable with the idea that Wiseman will one day reach a similar overall level of play than that he will be Giannis 2.0 with the mobility to play most of his minutes at SF, with the quickness to defend guards and with the length to defend centers.  I see him only guarding PFs and Cs for his career other than on individual plays where he gets switched.  As a third year player, Giannis saw more time playing shooting guard than center.  I'll start an apology thread if that happens with Wiseman at any time in the next two seasons.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, RandomFan said:

What I AM saying and have been saying is pre-draft opinions go out the window once actual games are played, so the pre-draft opinion you are trying to prop up your argument with is not only useless but laughable that you try to use it. 

Cool. Cool. Cool. 

Now try this: have Bob call Travis and offer Wiseman for OO straight up and see how fast Darth Schlenk falls out of his chair laughing. We can both play that game of hypotheticals where neither of us really know the answer for sure. Another failed attempt to prop up your argument with an invalid premise. 

You love you some Wiseman, we get it. We really really do. You need to realize most of us out here don't feel as strongly as you do. And it's not homerism, it's a differing of opinion. 

Let's never forget... 

You made this a Wiseman vs. OO thing.

My desire was a Wiseman and OO on the same Hawks team with Trae at PG. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

You go ahead and post here when he starts guarding all 5 positions on the floor including defending shooting guards and point guards on key possessions and then we'll talk about how he has the same defensive tools as Giannis.  Beyond what I think he lacks in mobility, feel for the game is a skill.  I don't see a feel for defense from Wiseman and I don't see near the same freakish mobility in him that has allowed Giannis to guard all five positions.  

They are just worlds apart right now in terms of their impact on the floor and I am much more comfortable with the idea that Wiseman will one day reach a similar overall level of play than that he will be Giannis 2.0 with the mobility to play most of his minutes at SF, with the quickness to defend guards and with the length to defend centers.  I see him only guarding PFs and Cs for his career other than on individual plays where he gets switched.  As a third year player, Giannis saw more time playing shooting guard than center.  I'll start an apology thread if that happens with Wiseman at any time in the next two seasons.

Isn't this the Same s--- that I've said over and over?  I said that he doesn't know the places he needs to be on defense because he played in 3.... 1,2,3... college games and NO CAMP.   But don't worry.. one way or another this thread will be revisited. 

 

[AHF]

On 7/29/2021 at 5:15 PM, Diesel said:

Isn't this the Same s--- that I've said over and over?  I said that he doesn't know the places he needs to be on defense because he played in 3.... 1,2,3... college games and NO CAMP.   But don't worry.. one way or another this thread will be revisited. 

 

I give you full license to call me out when he starts defending like Giannis.  I'll do the same if he doesn't.  I agree he was like OO and a large % of last year's class in terms of getting limited reps prior to jumping into an NBA regular season game but I don't have the same confidence in his future development as a versatile defender that you do.