Ben Simmons A Hawk? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[AHF]

20 hours ago, hazer said:

Hold up, I thought the GS Curryers were geniuses for passing on JJ twice  

Nobody called current GS management geniuses.  In fact, we didn't even discuss whether JJ should have gone higher.  You said that Hawks fans are biased against Jalen because of the sacred cows on our roster and suggested favoritism towards those sacred cows would be the only thing holding him back from being better than those sacred cows.  I merely pointed out that you and I are both Hawks fans but NBA GMs and Scouts are not and the fact that JJ was taken where he was suggests that these non-Hawks-biased observers (whose jobs depend on whether they see things correctly) did not view him in the same draft range as guys like #4 DeAndre Hunter, #6 OO, etc. who would not have been available at pick #20 so perhaps it is not purely bias that others see JJ as something less than the bankable star that you are suggesting he is.

My view and that of many others of those hopelessly naive Hawks homers is simply that we need to see Jalen against NBA competition before making that call.  Not much of significance has changed between draft day and today (at least in my mind summer league isn't significant).  I hope you are 100% correct that Jalen is destined to be a star.  I certainly think he has that potential and I'm not even arguing you are wrong so much as saying that those who take a more tempered view on what he will be as a rookie are hopelessly lost and biased against him.  I don't expect him to be a star from day 1 because my expectation with any rookie is that they will take some time to adjust and need some development and I'm happy to be patient with him and watch  him grow.

I think we'll both be high fiving over him at some point this season like we collectively were over OO last year even though OO was getting less than 8 mpg as late as March last season.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I hope you are 100% correct that Jalen is destined to be a star.  I certainly think he has that potential and I'm not even arguing you are wrong so much as saying that those who take a more tempered view on what he will be as a rookie are hopelessly lost and biased against him.  I don't expect him to be a star from day 1 because my expectation with any rookie is that they will take some time to adjust and need some development and I'm happy to be patient with him and watch  him grow.

I like him, he’s solid. I don’t think he’s going to be a star per say but he’s going to be like a spark plug off the bench for us at a certain point. To me, I think he has a chance to be a really great 6th man in the league or great bench contributer for years. 
 

I never put a ceiling on a player but that’s just my projection for him, specially in a deep team like ours. I mean if he’s as good as some think then he’s gonna challenge people for minutes. 
 

I see him as a Josh Howard type a bit. The Mavs Howard of like 10 plus years back. More offense though. I’m excited regardless we got a crazy steal dude can ball.

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’m excited regardless we got a crazy steal dude can ball.

I feel like that about both him and Cooper.  Didn't expect Jalen to be there and would not have been upset with Cooper at #20.

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

I feel like that about both him and Cooper.  Didn't expect Jalen to be there and would not have been upset with Cooper at #20.

Oh no doubt. Coop looks like a prototype mid 90’s dude that would be on all the hip bball mags I used to buy. 
 

Speaking of which, remember the good ole days when you had to buy magazines for central division standing predictions before the season started? Like Street n Smith’s was my go to. Still have a few in the garage. I used to digest every word and read that thing 10 times before the season started. Lindy’s too! Or something like that.

[kg01]

16 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Oh no doubt. Coop looks like a prototype mid 90’s dude that would be on all the hip bball mags I used to buy. 
 

Speaking of which, remember the good ole days when you had to buy magazines for central division standing predictions before the season started? Like Street n Smith’s was my go to. Still have a few in the garage. I used to digest every word and read that thing 10 times before the season started. Lindy’s too! Or something like that.

I used ta be all about Slam magazine and the Kicks edition every year.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I used ta be all about Slam magazine and the Kicks edition every year.

And a diamond stud on your left ear bling bling folks goin blind in the sac!  Did your buddy also do everyone’s hair in the crew?  
 

Slam was dope and had folks like KG and Iverson and Stephon, Street n Smiths had MJ on one cover that I read like 50 times, I hated the Bulls and we had just come off a 41-41 season or something. Right around the time we flipped Doc to the Clipps and Spud to Sac. Wonder if they still have that mag, I’d order it. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

 

Speaking of which, remember the good ole days when you had to buy magazines for central division standing predictions before the season started? Like Street n Smith’s was my go to. Still have a few in the garage. I used to digest every word and read that thing 10 times before the season started. Lindy’s too! Or something like that.

I thought I was the only one. 

 

[Diesel]

As I look around this thread, I see we have a lot of homers tying their boats to ships that have never played against NBA competition. 

 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I thought I was the only one. 

 

Nah I’m old too.  I miss the smell of those magazines, just takes me back. 

[hazer]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

Nobody called current GS management geniuses.  In fact, we didn't even discuss whether JJ should have gone higher.  You said that Hawks fans are biased against Jalen because of the sacred cows on our roster and suggested favoritism towards those sacred cows would be the only thing holding him back from being better than those sacred cows.  I merely pointed out that you and I are both Hawks fans but NBA GMs and Scouts are not and the fact that JJ was taken where he was suggests that these non-Hawks-biased observers (whose jobs depend on whether they see things correctly) did not view him in the same draft range as guys like #4 DeAndre Hunter, #6 OO, etc. who would not have been available at pick #20 so perhaps it is not purely bias that others see JJ as something less than the bankable star that you are suggesting he is.

My view and that of many others of those hopelessly naive Hawks homers is simply that we need to see Jalen against NBA competition before making that call.  Not much of significance has changed between draft day and today (at least in my mind summer league isn't significant).  I hope you are 100% correct that Jalen is destined to be a star.  I certainly think he has that potential and I'm not even arguing you are wrong so much as saying that those who take a more tempered view on what he will be as a rookie are hopelessly lost and biased against him.  I don't expect him to be a star from day 1 because my expectation with any rookie is that they will take some time to adjust and need some development and I'm happy to be patient with him and watch  him grow.

I think we'll both be high fiving over him at some point this season like we collectively were over OO last year even though OO was getting less than 8 mpg as late as March last season.

You have the wrong guy, I never said that. But someone did say that JJ wasn’t all that because all these GMs passed on him, GS twice  

[AHF]

11 hours ago, hazer said:

You have the wrong guy, I never said that. But someone did say that JJ wasn’t all that because all these GMs passed on him, GS twice  

Who?  Legit question.  I said that perception of him wasn't as high as the poster's personal view and the fact that the poster was calling out other Hawks fans for homerism for not sharing the same view.  I think JJ could be all that and a bag of chips but that is all just hopes and dreams right now until we see him against legit competition so I try to balance my optimism for his hypothetical upside against the historical odds for any player picked in the 10-20 area of the draft.  Definitely hope he is one of the later picks that blooms ala JC, Giannis, Stockton, Kemp, etc.

[hazer]

20 hours ago, AHF said:

Nobody called current GS management geniuses.  In fact, we didn't even discuss whether JJ should have gone higher.  You said that Hawks fans are biased against Jalen because of the sacred cows on our roster and suggested favoritism towards those sacred cows would be the only thing holding him back from being better than those sacred cows.  I merely pointed out that you and I are both Hawks fans but NBA GMs and Scouts are not and the fact that JJ was taken where he was suggests that these non-Hawks-biased observers (whose jobs depend on whether they see things correctly) did not view him in the same draft range as guys like #4 DeAndre Hunter, #6 OO, etc. who would not have been available at pick #20 so perhaps it is not purely bias that others see JJ as something less than the bankable star that you are suggesting he is.

My view and that of many others of those hopelessly naive Hawks homers is simply that we need to see Jalen against NBA competition before making that call.  Not much of significance has changed between draft day and today (at least in my mind summer league isn't significant).  I hope you are 100% correct that Jalen is destined to be a star.  I certainly think he has that potential and I'm not even arguing you are wrong so much as saying that those who take a more tempered view on what he will be as a rookie are hopelessly lost and biased against him.  I don't expect him to be a star from day 1 because my expectation with any rookie is that they will take some time to adjust and need some development and I'm happy to be patient with him and watch  him grow.

I think we'll both be high fiving over him at some point this season like we collectively were over OO last year even though OO was getting less than 8 mpg as late as March last season.

 

12 hours ago, hazer said:

You have the wrong guy, I never said that. But someone did say that JJ wasn’t all that because all these GMs passed on him, GS twice  

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, hazer said:

 

You just said someone said that JJ wasn't all that because these GMs passed on him.  Who said that?  

13 hours ago, hazer said:

You have the wrong guy, I never said that. But someone did say that JJ wasn’t all that because all these GMs passed on him, GS twice  

 

[thecampster]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

As I look around this thread, I see we have a lot of homers tying their boats to ships that have never played against NBA competition. 

 

When I do my personal evaluations of players (I did a very in depth "why I want Trae" in that draft), I always try to point to why parts of their games translate to the NBA.  In Trae's case, a lot of the conversation was about his scoring. But I saw someone who was using his scoring to create opportunities for teammates. Even when scoring, Trae's eyes were always up (unlike Dennis Schröder). I was ready to be onboard with Trae from day 1. Specifically Trae's pick n roll behavior showed his eyes/awareness up very early in the process. That translates.

 

Everything Jalen does on offense translates to the NBA and is on an NBA level right now. From a physicality standpoint, Jalen still doesn't have a finished form, but his frame/body is way ahead of where the typical 19 year old is.  Its very similar to where Lebron, Giannis was at his age. This points to him being bigger, stronger, sturdier at 22 than most players. He doesn't have to do that same work Huerter/Cam did. He can focus on mechanics, plays adapting to the NBA play style where as other rookies are still trying to grow into being men.

Where he struggles is on defense. It is really, really obvious he hasn't played much man defense in his life. The first game of summer league was very rough. He was out of position a ton on D but he adjusted quickly as the Summer League progressed. He has the tools to play solid D and plays 1v1 D well. Its when screens, motion, cuts happen that he needs to adjust. His summer league progression shows he has it in him, he's just going to take some work.  Hunter as a defensive mentor could really help him.

To say Jalen hasn't played against NBA competition would normally be true but in his case is false.  Jalen has been running pick ups with NBA players for going on 2 years now. Its why he looked so natural playing with Simmons in that one video. He knows a lot of those guys already from offseason pick ups. Jalen has played a lot of pickup against NBA talent. His learning curve is going to be much easier than most rookies. If the depth chart in front of him wasn't so strong, he'd be starting by mid season on maybe 1/3 of current NBA teams. He is and is going to be that good.

 

Now Cooper is a different story. Much of what he does mirrors Trae but even though Trae is small, he's very efficient movement wise. Cooper does what Trae does but much less efficiently. He expends a lot of energy and focuses on 2-3 offensive players only during his drives. Trae when he joined the NBA was a whole team guy having spent lots of time with NBA players growing up. The offensive game was easier for him. Cooper is really good, Trae like but awareness wise is maybe 2 years behind where Trae was when Trae came into the league. Cooper can be Trae's backup by mid-season but there is no reason to rush it and he's going to have to earn it. Irregardless, both are very capable to play minutes this year if called upon (Jalen, much more so than Cooper).  

 

If you go back and look at my draft analysis over the years, I'm no homer. I crap on rookies often and usually recommend patience, cautiousness. Its going to be really hard to be patient with Jalen. His body control is light years ahead of the average rookie. He's had great people around him as he's moved toward this moment. This is one you can get on board with Diesel. Teams are going to kick themselves 5 years from now. IMHO, he should have gone top 5 and if he hadn't suffered injuries, been held out...he would have probably gone #1 overall. Yes, he's that good.

Edited September 24, 2021 by thecampster

[AHF]

For those who watched Duke this season, what was the story behind why the team wasn't very good with Jalen?  He put up solid numbers for a freshman with 11.2 points per game (3rd on the team) on .575% TS% (3rd on the team) with decent rebounding, steals and block numbers.  He was 4th on the team in WS/48 and PER and 3rd in BPM.  But team was 5-8 with him overall (two of those wins vs Coppin State and Bellarmine) and 8-3 without him.  He seems easily to have been one of the most talented players on the team (if not the most talented) but the team's record was much better without him and Coach K ended up benching him (suggesting he concluded the team was better with less JJ).  

I'm hoping he ends up being one of those guys who is significantly better in the pros than he was in college.  Definitely has that potential.

[RedDawg#8]

Wait and see is always the safest approach. I don't knock it.

There are a ton of intangibles that could prevent Jalen from reaching his ceiling. Injuries, off the court stuff, confidence, etc.  

But when you look at him, it's not hard to see this young man has the goods. I don't care if it's too early or too late, I trust what my eyes are seeing. 

I make safe predictions all the time. I'm good with going out on a limb on this one.

[thecampster]

31 minutes ago, AHF said:

For those who watched Duke this season, what was the story behind why the team wasn't very good with Jalen?  He put up solid numbers for a freshman with 11.2 points per game (3rd on the team) on .575% TS% (3rd on the team) with decent rebounding, steals and block numbers.  He was 4th on the team in WS/48 and PER and 3rd in BPM.  But team was 5-8 with him overall (two of those wins vs Coppin State and Bellarmine) and 8-3 without him.  He seems easily to have been one of the most talented players on the team (if not the most talented) but the team's record was much better without him and Coach K ended up benching him (suggesting he concluded the team was better with less JJ).  

I'm hoping he ends up being one of those guys who is significantly better in the pros than he was in college.  Definitely has that potential.

This is really easy to answer. Throw the 11.2 point per game out the window. Most of the games he played, he was hurt and played limited minutes. Below is the list of games he played in.  I change to green text the games we know he was healthy in.

You can see in his first game he played 35 minutes, was 8 for 8 from the field for 19 points, 19 rebounds and 5 assists.

He played 3 more games, all nursing the foot injury and was limited to an average of 20 minutes per game. Even injured he averaged 9 pts and 5 rebounds in 20 minutes. He then was out for 5 weeks as they tried to recover from the foot injury. He played 4 minutes near the end of the half against VT attempting only 1 FG. Feeling he'd recovered he played 33 minutes against Pitt and was 8/15 for 24 points/16 rebounds but the foot injury returned. He tried to play through it for the next 3+ weeks but didn't play 30 minutes again. 

His season averages are very affected by only playing 13 games, 3 of which he played between 4 and 15 minutes (average 9).  The real takeaway here is he played hurt in all but 3 games this season. The two "healthy" games he averaged 22/17.  It would be fair to say that Duke playing poorly when he was on the floor had a lot to do with the fact that he wasn't 100% and the injury was to a foot. We saw how a bum knee affected Bogi in the playoffs. When healthy, he showed dominance against Coppin State and Pitt. IMHO there is little to nothing you can take away from his season at Duke. Foot injuries are terrible.

Date	School	Opponent	Type		GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PTS
11/28/2020	Duke	Coppin State	REG	W	1	35	8	8	1	1	19	5	0	4	7	19
12/1/2020	Duke	Michigan State	REG	L	1	22	4	11	0.364	0.5	4	1	1	2	1	11
12/4/2020	Duke	Bellarmine	REG	W	1	15	4	6	0.667		3	0	1	0	4	9
12/8/2020	Duke	Illinois	REG	L	1	23	3	10	0.3	0	7	1	2	2	1	7
1/12/2021	Duke	Virginia Tech	REG	L	0	4	1	1	1		0	1	0	0	0	2
1/19/2021	Duke	Pitt	REG	L	0	33	8	15	0.533	0.7	16	7	2	4	0	24
1/23/2021	Duke	Louisville	REG	L	1	21	4	8	0.5	0.5	4	0	0	0	6	9
1/26/2021	Duke	Georgia Tech	REG	W	1	24	7	11	0.636	0.667	6	2	3	2	3	18
1/30/2021	Duke	Clemson	REG	W	1	28	3	7	0.429	0.75	8	5	2	0	1	9
2/1/2021	Duke	Miami (FL)	REG	L	1	26	6	12	0.5	1	7	2	1	0	4	13
2/6/2021	Duke	UNC	REG	L	0	24	6	12	0.5		5	5	1	1	2	14
2/9/2021	Duke	Notre Dame	REG	L	0	15	3	6	0.5		0	0	1	1	3	8
2/13/2021	Duke	NC State	REG	W	0	8	0	2	0	0.6	0	0	1	0	1	3
13 Games					8	278	57	109	0.523	0.632	79	29	15	16	33	146

[AHF]

41 minutes ago, thecampster said:

This is really easy to answer. Throw the 11.2 point per game out the window. Most of the games he played, he was hurt and played limited minutes. Below is the list of games he played in.  I change to green text the games we know he was healthy in.

You can see in his first game he played 35 minutes, was 8 for 8 from the field for 19 points, 19 rebounds and 5 assists.

He played 3 more games, all nursing the foot injury and was limited to an average of 20 minutes per game. Even injured he averaged 9 pts and 5 rebounds in 20 minutes. He then was out for 5 weeks as they tried to recover from the foot injury. He played 4 minutes near the end of the half against VT attempting only 1 FG. Feeling he'd recovered he played 33 minutes against Pitt and was 8/15 for 24 points/16 rebounds but the foot injury returned. He tried to play through it for the next 3+ weeks but didn't play 30 minutes again. 

His season averages are very affected by only playing 13 games, 3 of which he played between 4 and 15 minutes (average 9).  The real takeaway here is he played hurt in all but 3 games this season. The two "healthy" games he averaged 22/17.  It would be fair to say that Duke playing poorly when he was on the floor had a lot to do with the fact that he wasn't 100% and the injury was to a foot. We saw how a bum knee affected Bogi in the playoffs. When healthy, he showed dominance against Coppin State and Pitt. IMHO there is little to nothing you can take away from his season at Duke. Foot injuries are terrible.

Date	School	Opponent	Type		GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	FT%	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PTS
11/28/2020	Duke	Coppin State	REG	W	1	35	8	8	1	1	19	5	0	4	7	19
12/1/2020	Duke	Michigan State	REG	L	1	22	4	11	0.364	0.5	4	1	1	2	1	11
12/4/2020	Duke	Bellarmine	REG	W	1	15	4	6	0.667		3	0	1	0	4	9
12/8/2020	Duke	Illinois	REG	L	1	23	3	10	0.3	0	7	1	2	2	1	7
1/12/2021	Duke	Virginia Tech	REG	L	0	4	1	1	1		0	1	0	0	0	2
1/19/2021	Duke	Pitt	REG	L	0	33	8	15	0.533	0.7	16	7	2	4	0	24
1/23/2021	Duke	Louisville	REG	L	1	21	4	8	0.5	0.5	4	0	0	0	6	9
1/26/2021	Duke	Georgia Tech	REG	W	1	24	7	11	0.636	0.667	6	2	3	2	3	18
1/30/2021	Duke	Clemson	REG	W	1	28	3	7	0.429	0.75	8	5	2	0	1	9
2/1/2021	Duke	Miami (FL)	REG	L	1	26	6	12	0.5	1	7	2	1	0	4	13
2/6/2021	Duke	UNC	REG	L	0	24	6	12	0.5		5	5	1	1	2	14
2/9/2021	Duke	Notre Dame	REG	L	0	15	3	6	0.5		0	0	1	1	3	8
2/13/2021	Duke	NC State	REG	W	0	8	0	2	0	0.6	0	0	1	0	1	3
13 Games					8	278	57	109	0.523	0.632	79	29	15	16	33	146

Thanks very much!  Losing that Pitt game when Jalen was healthy and played so well (and Pitt wasn't world beaters) is rough but anything can happen in a single game.  Sounds a lot like Cam's freshman year except that Cam ground it out with subpar stats for the full season while Jalen was in and out. 

I thought was was healthy in more than 2 games.  (I don't count Virginia Tech's 4 minute appearance).

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[RandomFan]

Not that I'm pushing for it to happen, but I wouldn't be opposed to taking on Ben in a trade. Primarily because due to his performance in the playoffs combined with his trade demands, we would be buying low on his stock; whoever trades for him is almost assuredly going to be getting more value back than they are sending out. 

I would feel comfortable trading away Cam, one of Bogi or Gallo (not both because Philly probably wouldn't want both), up to two 1st round picks, and possibly even throw in Delon Wright if necessary to match salaries. 

Starting lineup of Trae, Hunter, Simmons, JC, Capela. Send Ben to the bench early to stagger Trae and his minutes so one is always on the floor. Also set the rotations where after the starting minutes he is on the court more with Dieng or JC at center instead of Capela. 

Ben wouldn't necessarily have to close the game either; at least not until his confidence in at least his free throws returns/improves.  

Edited September 24, 2021 by RandomFan