Ben Simmons A Hawk? I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[RedDawg#8]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

Hey Fellas...

I get it... I see where you can blame the whole series on Simmons and he lost them the game 7 because he only had 5, 13, and 8 with 50% from the field and 50% from the FT on 2 FTs...

I get it... 

He's the worst player ever and he has always been bad???  He sucks... should have never been rookie of the year with 16, 8, and 8...

His poor FT shooting makes him a Liability. 

I get it... He sucks.

Or does he??

When was the last time you had a consistent triple double threat who played suffocating defense?

Westbrook aint it.  Magic wasn't it. Lebron isn't it. 

We in Hawkland take too many liberties looking at the speck of sawdust in Philly's eye and not recognizing the planks in ours....

If we had a 6'10 lockdown defender who could be trusted to put up triple double like numbers... we would be ecstatic.  If Cam came out next year and put up triple double like numbers and played lockdown defense... to the point that he was a steals per game leader.... and a Blocks per game leader... we would be over the moon and we would be praising Travis. 

 

The only real question about Simmons is his confidence.  If Simmons can find himself on the right team with the right coach... and he regained his confidence... he could be the MVP of this league.  Everybody realizes that except Hawks fans.  One bad series doesn't make him a bad player. 

 You guys who try to rewrite history and say he has always sucked and he's an albatross is amazing to me.   His accolades make even Trae's look like a child's. 

 

A lot of those aren't my argument. Ben Simmons is insanely gifted and has a ton of talent. But this guy get's it, plainly and simple. He is out of position, therefore cannot maximize his full potential.

 

 

[RedDawg#8]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

You make some good points... However,   Aside from Embiid... what other Philly players benefited from the media bias that you claim?

Well, let's think... After Allen Iverson left Philly, Andre Iguodala had his chance to be the lead dog...

Let's look at his accolades:

1x All Star  = With GS

3x NBA Champ    = With GS

2x All-Defensive   = With GS

2004-05 All-Rookie   = With Philly

2014-15 Finals MVP  = With GS 

Iguodala has all these accolades with GS but his best statistical years were with Philly.  He got NO LOVE.

That team also had Andre Miller, Kyle Korver, and Lou Williams...  How many of them received any love for anything they did in Philly?

Before Iverson got to Philly, there was a talented young player there name Jerry Stackhouse.  His rookie season... 19, 4, & 4.

Yet, Jerry Stackhouse never went to an allstar as a 76ers...  Never got any awards as a 76ers.  He got No love.

 

Like I said, you make a good point... but it fails to hold true... We can argue Mitchell over Simmons.. No doubt. 

Here's the stat view for that year:

Simmons averaged 15.8 points, 8.2 assists and 8.1 rebounds 

Meanwhile, Mitchell put up 20.5 points, 3.7 rebounds and 3.7 assists per game 

If you were voting...   Who do you vote for?

 Are we just voting for Mitchell because he's from a small market team?  I mean 20.5 ppg is great.  But I didn't even put up defensive numbers from Simmons as a rookie.   The offensive numbers look like Dark Phoenix vs. Storm.  Sure, it's a good back and fourth for a minute... but when the writers saw just the statistics and the defensive stats too... .90 out of 101 of them voted for Simmons.   Did the Utah press vote for Mitchell?

The reason why GMs drool over Simmons is that he's young and has the ability to be the next Magic.   Even in their head to head the next year, Philly won by 17 and Simmons dropped  13, 14, and 12 on the Jazz.   No Embiid in Utah.... 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201812270UTA.html

 

 

 

I 'll try to be quick.

Jerry Stackhouse balled out when he got to the league and was voted 1st team All rookie. But his teams were 18-64, 22-60, and in the middle of a 31-51 season before he was traded to Detroit after 22 games.

He failed to make the All-Star Game because of that and the following players at his position who did:

*Ahem*

Michael Jordan- each year

Reggie Miller-each year

Penny Hardaway - each year

Grant Hill- each year

Joe Dumars - once over him

Tim Hardaway-twice over him

Also known as, some of the greatest players to ever live. 

It's no coincidence that the 2 seasons Stackhouse made the ASG, Jordan happened to have been retired.

 

As far as Iggy goes, he was 1st team All-Rookie in a competitive class over Josh Smith and Josh Childress, and he made 1 all star team in 2011-12 and that was with Philly. And do you know what his stat line was that season? 12pts, 5 rebs, 5 assts. Do you think a single Hawks player could have gotten selected to be an All Star putting up those numbers?

 

Back to Ben. In addition to regional bias, there was also narrative bias. He was the 1st overall pick in his draft class, and was being compared as the next Lebron James. Some still call him Lebron without a jumpshot. Fact is, Donovan did more as a true rookie to be the 13th overall pick and outplay his entire draft class, than a redshirt number 1 overall Ben Simmons did who had everyone pulling for him to live up to his draft hype after a year off. 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Well i missed a bunch of posts but like I said Simmons is really good.   I never said the guy was bad.  I just don't want him to be the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player on the team.   It's that simple.   

But look at that statement.  If if if.   Heck that sounds like what we said about Smoove who was also a great passer and defender but couldn't throw it in the ocean.   

Yeah all his accolades?  He's been in the league longer in a premium market on a team that's been decent longer.  But who cares about accolades.  That doesn't make him able to shoot.   

I'll ask again.   If we had him on our roster would you start him over Trae, BB, Hunter, JC, or CC?   I wouldn't.   And i'm not paying a guy $30 mill to come off the bench.  

But I'll make it simpler.   I don't really like him.   

It sounds a whole heck of a lot like Smoove and every other player we have had:

1.  IF Trae could play Better defense.

2.  If Trae could hit a better percentage from Three

3.  If Hunter can stay injury free. 

4.  If Cam could make better decisions. 

5.  If JC could play defense like Siakim. 

6.  IF Clint could hit Bunnies. 

7.  IF Gallo could move his feet. 

Every player comes with if.  The key is which players get closer to great.   Simmons is closer to great than most. 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Well i missed a bunch of posts but like I said Simmons is really good.   I never said the guy was bad.  I just don't want him to be the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player on the team.   It's that simple.   

But look at that statement.  If if if.   Heck that sounds like what we said about Smoove who was also a great passer and defender but couldn't throw it in the ocean.   

Yeah all his accolades?  He's been in the league longer in a premium market on a team that's been decent longer.  But who cares about accolades.  That doesn't make him able to shoot.   

I'll ask again.   If we had him on our roster would you start him over Trae, BB, Hunter, JC, or CC?   I wouldn't.   And i'm not paying a guy $30 mill to come off the bench.  

But I'll make it simpler.   I don't really like him.   

I would easily start him over Hunter. 

What has Hunter done to earn the respect that you give him??  Been Drafted in the Lottery by the Hawks??

 

Per Game Table

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	De'Andre Hunter	2020-21	23	23	19	29.5	5.2	10.8	.484	1.3	4.1	.326	3.9	6.7	.582	.546	3.2	3.7	.859	0.7	4.0	4.8	1.9	0.8	0.5	1.3	2.6	15.0
2	Ben Simmons	2019-20	23	57	57	35.4	6.6	11.4	.580	0.0	0.1	.286	6.5	11.2	.583	.581	3.2	5.2	.621	2.0	5.8	7.8	8.0	2.1	0.6	3.5	3.3	16.4

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 9/13/2021.

What in here suggests that Hunter should start over Simmons?

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

A lot of those aren't my argument. Ben Simmons is insanely gifted and has a ton of talent. But this guy get's it, plainly and simple. He is out of position, therefore cannot maximize his full potential.

 

 

I agree with you.    I don't think he should be trotted out as a PG.   To me... He's a Scottie Pippen, Toni Kukoc  SF.   You can elect to run some offense through him but he's going to be that defensive stopper with every team you play.   Move him to his right position and he puts up trip doub numbers with ease. 

 

[Diesel]

58 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I 'll try to be quick.

Jerry Stackhouse balled out when he got to the league and was voted 1st team All rookie. But his teams were 18-64, 22-60, and in the middle of a 31-51 season before he was traded to Detroit after 22 games.

He failed to make the All-Star Game because of that and the following players at his position who did:

*Ahem*

Michael Jordan- each year

Reggie Miller-each year

Penny Hardaway - each year

Grant Hill- each year

Joe Dumars - once over him

Tim Hardaway-twice over him

Also known as, some of the greatest players to ever live. 

It's no coincidence that the 2 seasons Stackhouse made the ASG, Jordan happened to have been retired.

 

As far as Iggy goes, he was 1st team All-Rookie in a competitive class over Josh Smith and Josh Childress, and he made 1 all star team in 2011-12 and that was with Philly. And do you know what his stat line was that season? 12pts, 5 rebs, 5 assts. Do you think a single Hawks player could have gotten selected to be an All Star putting up those numbers?

 

Back to Ben. In addition to regional bias, there was also narrative bias. He was the 1st overall pick in his draft class, and was being compared as the next Lebron James. Some still call him Lebron without a jumpshot. Fact is, Donovan did more as a true rookie to be the 13th overall pick and outplay his entire draft class, than a redshirt number 1 overall Ben Simmons did who had everyone pulling for him to live up to his draft hype after a year off. 

Even with Iguodala's low base numbers... he did so much that he was deserving.  Best Perimeter defender in the game at the time.  Face of Philly Basketball.  They were winning.   The point then and the point now... No player in Philly has had league appeal to be voted into the allstar game.  So now... you're talking about 30 coaches who do the picking after the fan vote.  So you say that there's bias with the coaches?  30 coaches picked Iguodala over Josh Smith.    30 coaches picked Simmons.

 

Now ... Notice the voting from last year.....

Fans			Players			Media
Season	Player	Votes	Rank		Votes	Rank		Votes	Rank		Score
2019-20	Trae Young	2,829,969	1		65	3		47	2		1.8
2019-20	Kemba Walker	2,309,416	3		115	1		92	1		2.0
2019-20	Kyrie Irving	2,426,946	2		42	6		2	6		4.0
2019-20	Kyle Lowry	1,199,518	6		44	5		16	4		5.2
2019-20	Derrick Rose	1,891,732	4		40	7		2	6		5.2
2019-20	Ben Simmons	824,128	8		59	4		30	3		5.8
2019-20	Zach LaVine	1,218,280	5		40	7		2	6		5.8
2019-20	Bradley Beal	805,276	9		70	2		6	5		6.2
2019-20	Spencer Dinwiddie	459,419	12		30	9		2	6		9.8
2019-20	Evan Fournier	115,174	20		2	29		1	10		19.8
2019-20	Jaylen Brown	912,166	7		18	13		0	11		39.0
2019-20	Fred VanVleet	797,196	10		19	12		0	11		40.2
2019-20	Devonte' Graham	215,893	13		29	10		0	11		41.2
2019-20	Eric Bledsoe	169,665	17		27	11		0	11		43.5
2019-20	Goran Dragić	476,350	11		5	23		0	11		43.5
2019-20	Malcolm Brogdon	162,014	18		17	14		0	11		44.8
2019-20	Kendrick Nunn	179,648	16		8	19		0	11		45.0
2019-20	Tyler Herro	203,895	15		5	23		0	11		45.5
2019-20	Josh Richardson	72,691	22		13	15		0	11		47

 

There was no fan vote that elevated Ben Simmons into the allstar game.   That's what Derrick Rose got.   Simmons was 8th among fans... But Players voted... 4th...   Media voted....3rd.   It's not a regional vote when players and media and coaches think you deserve to be there. 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

13 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I 'll try to be quick.

 

 

[macdaddy]

14 hours ago, Diesel said:

It sounds a whole heck of a lot like Smoove and every other player we have had:

1.  IF Trae could play Better defense.

2.  If Trae could hit a better percentage from Three

3.  If Hunter can stay injury free. 

4.  If Cam could make better decisions. 

5.  If JC could play defense like Siakim. 

6.  IF Clint could hit Bunnies. 

7.  IF Gallo could move his feet. 

Every player comes with if.  The key is which players get closer to great.   Simmons is closer to great than most. 

This is just mostly stuff you say.

[Spud2nique]

Battery sales in Philly are up  

[macdaddy]

Kidding aside, Diesel's point that Simmons is better than we give him credit for around here in general is probably true.   But i still don't want him.   For 2 reasons - way too expensive and i don't like guys who can't shoot unless they are big centers.   But i understand some feel differently.     He'd be great for the Warriors.   I don't think he's our style. 

[marco102]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Kidding aside, Diesel's point that Simmons is better than we give him credit for around here in general is probably true.   But i still don't want him.   For 2 reasons - way too expensive and i don't like guys who can't shoot unless they are big centers.   But i understand some feel differently.     He'd be great for the Warriors.   I don't think he's our style. 

The only way he works on the Hawks is a super sub or trade Capela and let him play center.  I don't know if Ben's rebounding is good enough for that, but to me that's about the only way I'd see a good fit on the Hawks. 

I'd rather wait to see what Jalen Johnson turns into.  

I think Ben is a very good player that's being used improperly. He's power forward and should be played as such. 

[Gray Mule]

Since the Kings drafted Haliburton, I have followed them somewhat.  I'm hoping he goes there.  Smaller city.  Less pressure.  They are just one of many teams looking.  So far, the price is not right.  When it is, someone will have a really good defensive player.  Question will then be, "Was he worth the price?"

[HawkItus]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Kidding aside, Diesel's point that Simmons is better than we give him credit for around here in general is probably true.   But i still don't want him.   For 2 reasons - way too expensive and i don't like guys who can't shoot unless they are big centers.   But i understand some feel differently.     He'd be great for the Warriors.   I don't think he's our style. 

Money..plain and simple.  Ben is a draw two that takes up draw four type space on the cap.  He could very well hinder you from obtaining a draw four in the future.  

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, marco102 said:

The only way he works on the Hawks is a super sub or trade Capela and let him play center.  I don't know if Ben's rebounding is good enough for that, but to me that's about the only way I'd see a good fit on the Hawks. 

I'd rather wait to see what Jalen Johnson turns into.  

I think Ben is a very good player that's being used improperly. He's power forward and should be played as such. 

If the plan is to elevate OO anyway..  Ben goes in at 3.   The only thought that him playing next to Capela is a problem is for those who don't respect JC's outside presence. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, HawkItus said:

Money..plain and simple.  Ben is a draw two that takes up draw four type space on the cap.  He could very well hinder you from obtaining a draw four in the future.  

The money argument to me.. is the worst argument. 

Ben has more value than guys who are looking for close to max deals from us.   Kvon is not worth Near max.  Neither is Cam or Hunter... and those guys will be expecting something greater than we have given to Bogi.    The issue is that Neither Kvon, Cam, or Hunter is better than Simmons.   Niether will any of them probably ever be. 

[marco102]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

The money argument to me.. is the worst argument. 

Ben has more value than guys who are looking for close to max deals from us.   Kvon is not worth Near max.  Neither is Cam or Hunter... and those guys will be expecting something greater than we have given to Bogi.    The issue is that Neither Kvon, Cam, or Hunter is better than Simmons.   Niether will any of them probably ever be. 

Bens starting salary this season is $35 million. None of those players will approach that unless they show drastic improvement. If they do, you won't need Ben anyway. 

Ben can't play the three because he refuses to shoot and is not a good outside shooter thus far. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by marco102

[sturt]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

...guys who are looking [present tense] for close to max deals from us.   Kvon is not worth Near max.  Neither is Cam or Hunter... and those guys will be expecting something greater than we have given to Bogi.

I simply disagree that near max is what any of those three will end up negotiating short of, indeed, any of them actually having such an incredible 2021-22 that it justifies it.

It could happen. But as we sit here today, there's no presumption one can legitimately make. As we sit here today, even for one of them to so distinguish himself to that degree would be an exciting development. My own guess would be that Schlenk would be willing to sign any of the three for $15-$20m aav if they continue at something like their previous trajectory, but that it will take something more head-turning to get any of them into the $20-$25m aav range.

 

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

The money argument to me.. is the worst argument. 

Ben has more value...........

Like I said as recently as Saturday....

 

 

[kg01]

Deep down in the recesses of my cold, ded heart ... I think we're gonna acquire Simmons.

And it'll propel us to a title.

....... greetings from 2022. 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I think we're gonna acquire Simmons

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Since the Kings drafted Haliburton, I have followed them somewhat.  I'm hoping he goes there.  Smaller city.  Less pressure.  They are just one of many teams looking.  So far, the price is not right.  When it is, someone will have a really good defensive player.  Question will then be, "Was he worth the price?"

That is my initial guess as well. I got:

1. Kings

2. Blazers

3. Raptors