The NBA’s Anti-Vaxxers Are Trying to Push Around the League—And It’s Working

[mrhonline]

Everyone in the U.S. is a self-proclaimed expert these days, but the whole point of specialization is that we don't have to know all things about all fields of knowledge.

Would it have been too much to ask for people to have asked their local physician for advice and then... listened? Is our trust in the local members of our community so low?

[thecampster]

7 hours ago, sillent said:

How about everyone just go vegan. Alkaline your body and you don't have to worry about viruses or diseases.

Or is telling people what to put in there bodies their choice?

If not go vegan no more meat and dairy. Do that and then tell me who's worried about a vaccination.

If we can't tell you what to put in your body don't tell the next person. Simple as that. 

If the vaccine worked like it should nobody would worry about who's vaccinated and who's not. It would just be "smart" people and dead people. Either somethings not working or somethings not right.

I see the unvaccinated homeless still alive and well. What kinda "free" country do we live in when there's no choice on what we put in our bodies?

Again if the vaccine works than good for the vaccinated but it obviously doesn't if everyone has to get it for it to work. Sounds like bs.

 

 

So a typical vaccine works by putting weakened cells into your body so your body can easily fight them off and learn an immunity (simple version here).

The Pfizer, Moderna versions are 2 parts. 1st part is just part of the mRNA, not fulling working cells of the vaccine. Gives your body the blueprint without the full cells.  Also some immunity strengthening devices.  Its not the same as say, the mumps vaccine.  It would take significantly longer to develop one of those and it still wouldn't work properly because of the rate this thing mutates.

Dead vs not dead people isn't the question. That's too simple. The longer a strain is in the wild (people), it mutates based on the person's unique makeup. The virus is always trying to win.  Limiting the amount of time the virus is in your body, limits its ability to mutate. Shorter illness leads to less mutation and a better chance at ending strains, creating herd immunity. Prolonged cases lead to more variants, a potentially strong variant 10 times more deadly.  That's why you get immunized.  Its the social contract of trying to help others. 

10 hours ago, RandomFan said:

1 in 500 Americans have died from Covid. That is a ridiculous number. Get the vaccine. 

And those are the worst case scenarios, death. There are other side effects for many people even after recovering. Get.The.Vaccine.

For the sake of sidebar arguments, lets keep this conversation to facts and not spin.  The COVID death toll is much lower to the COVID "related" death toll. That one word is important.  COVID by itself hasn't killed near as many as COVID + other conditions (like cancer, immuno compromised, etc). In a country of 300 million...600,000 dead is 1 in 500 but we can't say specifically how many of those were COVID and how many were COVID + other conditions.  Its triggering for some when those stats are thrown out there.  Its enough we should all give a crap, but we should always deal in facts when trying to win over hold outs.  Feeling they're being lied to is why most hold outs exists. Always deal in facts to win over the doubters. You won't win them all but you will turn off more than you win if there's any possible holes in your stats.

[marco102]

Here we go....

 

[Spud2nique]

9 hours ago, sillent said:

How about everyone just go vegan.

[bleachkit]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:56 AM, thecampster said:

So its a tricky business telling people what to do medically. I'm not saying I'm on one side of the argument or not but here are a few things to consider.

1) Consider how the majority of NBA players are black.

2) Consider all of the medical procedures forced upon black people in this country and in the world over the last 100 years (forced sterilization comes to mind).

3) Consider that this is their place of work and how you would feel having your employer deeply involved in your medical decisions.

4) Consider that for many of these players, this is the only job they plan to have in their lifetime. They are investing upwards of 50% of their NBA salaries and hoping that is what carries them through the rest of life. Many of them have not trained to hold a regular Joe job. A medical complication from any procedure could cost them all future earnings.

 

I know there are other things to consider (like malpractice restitution, end of career insurance, etc) but it really is hard for us puny mortals to understand what's going on in the minds of a professional athlete. 

I got the vaccine as soon as it was available. I encouraged all in my family to get the vaccine. But I am a huge proponent of personal freedom. I don't have all the answers on how they safely return to work and the rights of those also in the workplace (this does vex me), but its not as simple as "its your damned job, go get the shot". I am really, really hesitant to give the government (which is basically my neighbors) the right to make any personal choices for me. That doesn't have a great history of working out for minorities in this country (see, the Trail of Tears).  When North Carolina forcibly sterilized 50,000 people in the early 1900's, they said it was for the best for everyone then too. They were just looking out for those poor enfeebled minds who couldn't possible care for a child. I get the apprehension. I think you win this over with patient prodding, not mandates. 

Kyrie Irving is a really interesting case here in this. He seems really easily swayed by conspiracy talk (the flat Earth thing was his famous one, but there are others). The great thing about this country is you can be bat crap crazy and still hold a job.

Using race to justify vaccine hesitancy is a really weak argument. Things that happened 80 or 90 years ago are not relevant. Moderna or Pfizer have nothing to do with the Tuskegee experiment. Making everything out to be sone kind of racist conspiracy is not helpful, in fact it's harmful, and reasonable minded people should stop doing that. Military used to do experiments on soldiers. Hospitals used to keep your own medical records from you, and they could conduct drug trials without patients consent. That's just how it was and it's unfortunate. But should I, as a Jewish person, be skeptical of a drug made in Germany because the Holocaust took place there? No, I shouldn't, or at least not for that reason. Times change and using historical tragedies from a bygone era as your frame of reference is irrational. 

[marco102]

9 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Using race to justify vaccine hesitancy is a really weak argument. Things that happened 80 or 90 years ago are not relevant. Moderna or Pfizer have nothing to do with the Tuskegee experiment. Making everything out to be sone kind of racist conspiracy is not helpful, in fact it's harmful, and reasonable minded people should stop doing that. Military used to do experiments on soldiers. Hospitals used to keep your own medical records from you, and they could conduct drug trials without patients consent. That's just how it was and it's unfortunate. But should I, as a Jewish person, be skeptical of a drug made in Germany because the Holocaust took place there? No, I shouldn't, or at least not for that reason. Times change and using historical tragedies from a bygone era as your frame of reference is irrational. 

@thecampster wasn't using race to justify hesitancy. He was explaining why some communities are hesitant against a government mandated vaccine.  80 or 90 years ago is a long time, but that hesitancy may be passed down from those grand parents to the the parents to their children.  No one is saying big bad whitey is to blame for vaccine hesitancy. There are communities that don't trust the government because of past actions. 

 

[swanlee]

18 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Covid-19 is not comparable with the flu.  Over 1% of cases become fatal.  Its around 0.1% for the flu so Covid-19 is roughly 10x as deadly.  1% is a massive number and its closer to 10% for the most at-risks populations.  Not only is it 10x as deadly but it spreads significantly faster and is way nore infectious than even bad flu season strains.  This is evidenced by jam packed ERs around the country.

 

I normally don't engage in these types of discussions because I really just cone here to talk Hawks, but I know multiple people who have not taken it seriously and infected their family members who then died.  Now they're living with guilt and dealing daily.  I also know people who refused the vaccine and then later died, leaving their children fatherless.  Its incredibly sad and devastating.  There are a lot of people who do not care about this pandemic or vaccine until it personally affects then, so I strongly encourage anyone who is in that head space to consider getting vaccinated.  It's tough to care about something that is a such a low chance of happening but the consequences can be devastating.

You'd figure after almost 2 years of this we would know by now, it's not a hoax and is pretty deadly. 5 million people dying of a single cause in about 18 months is a HUGE deal. Just because it is a low percentage of the population does not minimize it's impact. That is a ton of people dying from a new thing in a very short period of time.

More people need to use their Brain and learn from others mistakes and also the info we have, their is NO reason to have to learn the hard way.

[AHF]

Man...I just wish people had cared this little about their fellow Americans so that we could have diseases like Polio still around and kicking in the name of personal choice.  Seeing crippled children would almost be as satisfied as watching the children crying at the funerals of their anti-vaxx parents.  Just gives you a good feeling in side to make sure diseases like that remain percolating and mutating in the general population to cripple and kill more people in the future.  For as the Bible says, "do as  you feel like without regard for your fellow man because you are what matters so **** those guys."  /sarcasm

I'd treat this like George Washington did when he required mandatory innoculations.  

Quote

"Necessity not only authorizes but seems to require the measure."

We've lost over 700,000 Americans and have been regularly losing over 2,000 per day.  As long as we have a significant unvaccinated population, the disease will continue to spread and mutate and may well develop into a new form against which vaccinations are not effective and we are back to square 1.  At some point, enough needs to be enough.

As the Supreme Court said when it upheld a legal mandate for vaccinations in the context of the smallpox epidemic:

Quote

“There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good,” read the majority opinion. “On any other basis, organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy.

Protect your selves.  Protect your loved ones.  Protect your fellow Hawks fans, Americans, Christians...whatever community that you care even the slightest bit about.  

As Pope Francis said earlier this year:

Quote

“[M]orally everyone must take the vaccine. It is the moral choice because it is about your life but also the lives of others.”

 

[bleachkit]

27 minutes ago, marco102 said:

@thecampster wasn't using race to justify hesitancy. He was explaining why some communities are hesitant against a government mandated vaccine.  80 or 90 years ago is a long time, but that hesitancy may be passed down from those grand parents to the the parents to their children.  No one is saying big bad whitey is to blame for vaccine hesitancy. There are communities that don't trust the government because of past actions. 

 

Many people are using race to justify hesitancy. I can't tell you how many progressives have brought up the Tuskegee experiment, as if it's remotely relevant to modern medicine. I guess they are trying appear sympathetic, but it's not helpful, and it's costing lives unfortunately.

[bleachkit]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

So a typical vaccine works by putting weakened cells into your body so your body can easily fight them off and learn an immunity (simple version here).

The Pfizer, Moderna versions are 2 parts. 1st part is just part of the mRNA, not fulling working cells of the vaccine. Gives your body the blueprint without the full cells.  Also some immunity strengthening devices.  Its not the same as say, the mumps vaccine.  It would take significantly longer to develop one of those and it still wouldn't work properly because of the rate this thing mutates.

Dead vs not dead people isn't the question. That's too simple. The longer a strain is in the wild (people), it mutates based on the person's unique makeup. The virus is always trying to win.  Limiting the amount of time the virus is in your body, limits its ability to mutate. Shorter illness leads to less mutation and a better chance at ending strains, creating herd immunity. Prolonged cases lead to more variants, a potentially strong variant 10 times more deadly.  That's why you get immunized.  Its the social contract of trying to help others. 

For the sake of sidebar arguments, lets keep this conversation to facts and not spin.  The COVID death toll is much lower to the COVID "related" death toll. That one word is important.  COVID by itself hasn't killed near as many as COVID + other conditions (like cancer, immuno compromised, etc). In a country of 300 million...600,000 dead is 1 in 500 but we can't say specifically how many of those were COVID and how many were COVID + other conditions.  Its triggering for some when those stats are thrown out there.  Its enough we should all give a crap, but we should always deal in facts when trying to win over hold outs.  Feeling they're being lied to is why most hold outs exists. Always deal in facts to win over the doubters. You won't win them all but you will turn off more than you win if there's any possible holes in your stats.

It's true that death statistics are not cut and dry. If someone has stage 5 lung cancer and is positive for Covid at the time of death, is that a cancer death or a Covid death? Well traditionally that would have been labeled a cancer death, but nevertheless that would currently be tallied a Covid death. Seeing how Covid deaths are so strongly correlated with advanced age, it's a fair assumption most are associated with significant comorbidities. So these are fair points regarding Covid death statistics, it's not too minimize it, it's just to provide honest context. But even bringing this up will get you labeled a Covid denialist or some other strawman. 

[JCDBaptist]

20 hours ago, thecampster said:

Yah, see I'm vaccinated, I advocating being vaccinated but I'm not 100% sure I'm okay with giving a president (any president) the power to mandate things to businesses. If you feel that strongly about it, pass a law. The president's mandate isn't constitutional (IMHO) but that's a conversation for another forum.

I know some people don't listen to logic or reason know matter how much you coax them. If COVID was say 20% deadly if caught or something I'd be okay with legally mandating it, giving employers the power to mandate. But we are talking something that (in its current state) isn't much different than the flu.  I just don't like giving away that power over my own body to the government. But being a logical being, jumped in line to do it.

I'm not okay with restricting speech against it either, because there is a push to silence objectors in any society and the basis of our society is to give people the right to make their own decisions. Alcohol kills, but we still make it legal. Does it kill everyone, no but its deadly to many. Its the same basic thing.

For me its not even a matter of money.  Getting COVID can really hurt your season (see Bogi's first half) and your body (I know people with scarred lungs). Its a real easy logical decision but it takes some people a lot longer to see logic and reason.

Damn that's brilliant!  I'm stealing it.

In 1905, there was a mandate for the smallpox vaccine that was upheld by SCOTUS for the common good of the people. There is precedence. 

[marco102]

25 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Many people are using race to justify hesitancy. I can't tell you how many progressives have brought up the Tuskegee experiment, as if it's remotely relevant to modern medicine. I guess they are trying appear sympathetic, but it's not helpful, and it's costing lives unfortunately.

You may be misconstruing these people explaining WHY people are hesitant. It's not making excuses but explaining why someone feels a certain way about the vaccine is not costing lives.  Now if they are telling people not to get it because of those experiments in an entirely different story and I would agree with you.

[Spud2nique]

I got the shot and I’ve become buffer.  You wanna get ripped? Get the shot! 

[marco102]

31 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

It's true that death statistics are not cut and dry. If someone has stage 5 lung cancer and is positive for Covid at the time of death, is that a cancer death or a Covid death? Well traditionally that would have been labeled a cancer death, but nevertheless that would currently be tallied a Covid death. Seeing how Covid deaths are so strongly correlated with advanced age, it's a fair assumption most are associated with significant comorbidities. So these are fair points regarding Covid death statistics, it's not too minimize it, it's just to provide honest context. But even bringing this up will get you labeled a Covid denialist or some other strawman. 

I guess the other strawman to make is would that individual had lived longer if they didn't catch COVID.? So the complications from COVID did in fact lead to their death because there immune system wasn't strong enough to fight it off.  

I don't know what a COVID death is because COVID in itself causes so many other diseases in your body.  For example, you catch COVID and get pneumonia and you die from pneumonia.  The COVID is the reason you got the pneumonia in the first place so in my mind, that's a COVID death.  Same with the swelling in your body that may cause a stroke or heart attack. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by marco102

[thecampster]

Just now, marco102 said:

You may be misconstruing these people explaining WHY people are hesitant. It's not making excuses but explaining why someone feels a certain way about the vaccine is not costing lives.  Now if they are telling people not to get it because of those experiments in an entirely different story and I would agree with you.

Yah, I have a lot of that going on against me right now. 

 

Again folks. I am pro vaccine. I am vaccinated, I have successfully encouraged others to be vaccinated.

 

But in order to succeed with the holdouts, its going to take understanding, reason and patience.  Shaming is not going to work and is the wrong method. Take a second and understand why people have objections. Even if they seem crazy, its that person's decision and feelings. If you want to succeed in changing their mind, you have got to find some way to empathize. Its sales101.

[thecampster]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I guess the other strawman to make is would that individual had lived longer if they didn't catch COVID.  So the complications from COVID did in fact lead to their death because there immune system wasn't strong enough to fight it off.  

I don't know what a COVID death is because COVID in itself causes so many other diseases in your body.  For example, you catch COVID and get pneumonia and you die from pneumonia.  The COVID is the reason you got the pneumonia in the first place so in my mind, that's a COVID death.  Same with the swelling in your body that may cause a stroke or heart attack. 

Not going to argue that. Its sound, but just because you or I might say that it is...getting a COVID denier on board you can't use your stats to influence them. You still have to use "their" stats.  A better stat for them is verified (tested) infections.  That one is undeniable.

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by thecampster

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, JCDBaptist said:

In 1905, there was a mandate for the smallpox vaccine that was upheld by SCOTUS for the common good of the people. There is precedence. 

You are correct.  It is hard to come up with an appropriate analogy.  Some use the right not to wear a seatbelt as an analogy but this fails because it doesn't consider the impact on others (and of course fails to recognize that the government can compel use of a seatbelt).  It might be more comparable to driving without properly functioning breaks in that it could end up killing you, your loved ones or strangers that you encounter but this also fails to account for the reality that diseases spread and mutate so long as they are able to find new hosts so it isn't something that is contained to the effects of a single "driver" either.  One person spreads the disease to someone in an old folks home and suddenly there are dozens of lives at risk as well as the potential to continue spilling over to new communities just from that original touch point.  It would be more honest if people acknowledged the widespread impact of the choice to not get vaccinated goes well beyond any single person unlike something like smoking where the negative consequences primarily rest with the person who makes the decision.

[thecampster]

36 minutes ago, JCDBaptist said:

In 1905, there was a mandate for the smallpox vaccine that was upheld by SCOTUS for the common good of the people. There is precedence. 

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/smallpox-causes-treatment

"Smallpox Causes

The variola virus causes it. There are two forms of the virus. The more dangerous form, variola major, led to smallpox disease that killed about 30% of people who were infected. Variola minor caused a less deadly type that killed about 1% of those who got it."

I would have been onboard then too. But comparing COVID to Smallpox isn't really apples to apples.

I'm not far off with COVID but the true direct death rate is still fairly low considering ( I KNOW I KNOW 1 in 500). But allowing a president to mandate something by executive order is a very slippery slope. You have to be careful no matter how well intentioned. 

Also realize that all mandates come with repercussions. Saying do this or you don't work means a less effective work force, poorer quality, slower production. The US (and most of the world) operates on "Just in Time" manufacturing and processing. Any disruption of that production causes fist fights at Walmart over toilet paper. Big boy problems require big boy solutions.  Every decision has consequences and mandates have a bad history of acceptance in this country leading to all sorts of problems.  Laws with judicial review have been shown time and again to be the best avenue for national buy in.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

You are correct.  It is hard to come up with an appropriate analogy.  Some use the right not to wear a seatbelt as an analogy but this fails because it doesn't consider the impact on others (and of course fails to recognize that the government can compel use of a seatbelt).  It might be more comparable to driving without properly functioning breaks in that it could end up killing you, your loved ones or strangers that you encounter but this also fails to account for the reality that diseases spread and mutate so long as they are able to find new hosts so it isn't something that is contained to the effects of a single "driver" either.  One person spreads the disease to someone in an old folks home and suddenly there are dozens of lives at risk as well as the potential to continue spilling over to new communities just from that original touch point.  It would be more honest if people acknowledged the widespread impact of the choice to not get vaccinated goes well beyond any single person unlike something like smoking where the negative consequences primarily rest with the person who makes the decision.

Well except for the kids trapped in the car with Mommy and her Lucky Strikes. But I get the comparison.  We might want to start treading lightly in this thread, get your admin whip out and ready. We're teetering here on politics.  Should probably reign this back a smidge. 

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I guess the other strawman to make is would that individual had lived longer if they didn't catch COVID.? So the complications from COVID did in fact lead to their death because there immune system wasn't strong enough to fight it off.  

I don't know what a COVID death is because COVID in itself causes so many other diseases in your body.  For example, you catch COVID and get pneumonia and you die from pneumonia.  The COVID is the reason you got the pneumonia in the first place so in my mind, that's a COVID death.  Same with the swelling in your body that may cause a stroke or heart attack. 

I know they are not counted but I would also count people who die because they can't get access to ICU, etc. because they are overcrowded due to the unvaccinated sucking up resources.  It must be unbelievably traumatic to hear that no hospital can take your spouse who is suffering a heart attack because they are full of unvaccinated Covid patients.  

Not a hypothetical as we are seeing that in action.

Quote

Ray DeMonia was suffering from heart complications and was immediately rushed to the local hospital in Meridian, Alabama. The hospital had no beds available because of the uptick in the coronavirus.

The hospital staff started calling around to find an opening but could not find a bed for the ailing man.

DeMonia, still in heart failure had to wait, as the medical professionals called 43 hospitals across three different states.

But amid the surging Delta variant crisis, all of the other hospitals were also filled to the brim with poor souls sick due to complications from COVID-19.

The 73-year-old man finally died while being transported 200 miles away to the only hospital with an open bed ready to provide medical attention.