Folks we need another scorer! PERIOD!

[NBASupes]

I am hearing that Bos/Phi could be done soon with the Simmons for Brown deal. That's a no brainer. BOS needs a primary ballhander who can balance the floor with Horford which they both did in PHI. Tatum needs to be the ace dog which he will be without question. Brown is needed in Phi. 

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I am hearing that Bos/Phi could be done soon with the Simmons for Brown deal. That's a no brainer. BOS needs a primary ballhander who can balance the floor with Horford which they both did in PHI. Tatum needs to be the ace dog which he will be without question. Brown is needed in Phi. 

Ugh this is bad for us. Philly gets better and tougher with Brown. Now, the Celtics give themselves another look with Ben and Tatum. Sixers get better Boston gets.. different. 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Ugh this is bad for us. Philly gets better and tougher with Brown. Now, the Celtics give themselves another look with Ben and Tatum. Sixers get better Boston gets.. different. 

Boston can't play with those two being their best player. Neither willing to step back. Simmons is just a more natural fit.

[macdaddy]

I don't understand the frustration with Lou playing vs Wright.  They both have sucked big time.  

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I don't understand the frustration with Lou playing vs Wright.  They both have sucked big time.  

One defends one doesn't.  That could end the conversation because it is a really big factor.  

Looking at the stats that are more offensive tilted (like PER barely acknowledges defense):

Last year Lou had a 14.0 PER, 1.2 Win Shares and a .519% TS%.  Delon had a 16.3 PER, 4.3 Win Shares and a .562% TS% (similar numbers to his prior season).  

This year both have been fairly similar shooting the ball but the WS/48 is hugely different with Lou at 0.007 WS/48 and Wright at 0.054 WS/48.  That likely reflects the fact that Lou is putting up 3.6 assists and 4.4 rebounds per 36 while Delon is putting up 6.5 assists and 7.9 rebounds per 36 doing a much better job moving the ball around.  

With Delon at 29 and coming off several excellent seasons that suggest he should be in his prime and Lou at 35 coming off several years that suggest he is closer to retirement than his prime, it becomes somewhat headscratching that Lou is getting as much run as he is.  The simple reality is that Lou doesn't offer anything if he isn't scoring efficiently and he was not efficient last year in LA or Atlanta in the regular season and shows no sign of rebounding.  Wright gives you more defense, more playmaking and more rebounding.  Seems like a bit of a no-brainer other than the fact that Lou is a loved vet.

[mrhonline]

14 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

All y'all think about is offense when its our defense that sucks big time.

A-friggin-men. This board never ceases to amaze me in this regard.

The offense has been sputtering but the defense is PUTRID.

[kg01]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Boston can't play with those two being their best player. Neither willing to step back. Simmons is just a more natural fit.

This seems so obvious that it's ridiculous BOS waited this long to break things up.  Good thing for us is BOS is apparently picking the wrong horse.  Bad thing for us is Brown could take PHI up several levels.  Our only hope is that JoeLLLL continues to throw teammates under the bus and GLLLLen keeps not being an actual leader and they implode again - not a far-fetched outcome.

8 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

A-friggin-men. This board never ceases to amaze me in this regard.

The offense has been sputtering but the defense is PUTRID.

True but whaddoyou want us to do, post fifty-level threads about who's defensive stance is best (worst?)?

Where's the fun in that?

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

A-friggin-men. This board never ceases to amaze me in this regard.

The offense has been sputtering but the defense is PUTRID.

I think the big fix is get Cap and OO healthy for the D.  There is more that can be done but that is the big one.  Without those two, we really aren't going to be very good on D as a whole.

On offense, we have all the tools.  Better execution should have us near the top of the league on that end.

[Bonkers]

15 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

All y'all think about is offense when its our defense that sucks big time.

U know our "LEADER" is one of the worst defenders of ALL TIME

 

So of course folks on here try their best to ignore talking about Defense lmaooo

Edited November 10, 2021 by Bonkers

[Final_quest]

27 minutes ago, mrhonline said:

A-friggin-men. This board never ceases to amaze me in this regard.

The offense has been sputtering but the defense is PUTRID.

Coming into the season, I stated that Capela and Trae are the two guys that need to be healthy for us to win.  Right now you have to hope that Capela is struggling due to health.  Without a defensive presence in the middle it looks like we are a play in level team.  If Capela can't recover, it's back to the drawing board for the architecture of how our team is built.  

I would love to hear thoughts from others on if they think starting Reddish and Hunter is the answer both short and long term to our defense.  

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

I would love to hear thoughts from others on if they think starting Reddish and Hunter is the answer both short and long term to our defense.  

Based on the guys currently on our roster, I think Cam and Hunter represent our two wings who should be the best short and long-term options to put our best D on the floor.  Hunter seems a no-brainer to be a long-term starter.  Cam is more the question mark but my hope is that he will earn the starting role for the long-term.  My suggestion to pair them as starters now has more to do with my short-term view of how to optimize our starting and bench lineups.  If Cam can't improve his shooting (41.5% FG% year to date) then that might mean him coming off the bench long-term.

Would also note that two strong defensive wings will go a long-way but neither of these guys looks so dominant on that end that they can make the team elite defensively without more happening with the rest of the lineup.  But I kind of salivate over the idea of a more mature group of Cam and Hunter on the wings and JC/OO/Cap at the 4/5.  

[Iman]

I agree our record is a tad scary.  We do need a second scorer, but we have tons of those already on the team.  Someone needs to start stepping up for a few weeks, I think it will be Hunter.  I wonder how Bogi would respond to being the first man off the bench?

[Wretch]

28 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Coming into the season, I stated that Capela and Trae are the two guys that need to be healthy for us to win.  Right now you have to hope that Capela is struggling due to health.  Without a defensive presence in the middle it looks like we are a play in level team.  If Capela can't recover, it's back to the drawing board for the architecture of how our team is built.  

I would love to hear thoughts from others on if they think starting Reddish and Hunter is the answer both short and long term to our defense.  

I have been having the same conversation in my circle about Trae and Capela.  Trae for obvious reasons...but even with things clicking at 100%...playoff basketball is going to be difficult without a healthy Capela.  He gives us TOO much defensively and on the boards.  If Trae is the engine that makes the car go, Capela represents the tires that keep us on the road.  I am one of these people who is guilty of harping on our offense, but truth be told I'm not a "star struck" kind of fan.  My favorite kind of players have always been guys that rebound and defend like Capela, Rodman, Oakley, and Mutombo. 

On starting Redish and Hunter...I think we all see the implications there.  If we can't effectively defend the interior (or at least defend it to last year's level with Capela), then I like to see more Cam on the wings for his defense.  Bogi is a lot more controlled and mature offensively, but they are both streaky.  So, I can live with more minutes for Cam and him being under control cruising to 10-15ppg. 

Back to the OP's point..."don't cite the deep magic to me...I was there when it was written!" lol I've been a part of this board for going on 2 decades.  We don't need to have this conversation.  In all this time, we've all seen the limits of a balanced team driven by one standout.

Nique and friends...
Smitty and friends..
JJ and friends...

The Superfriends of 2015...lol and pick whichever player you thought was the linchpin of that team.  Point is, we have enough test samples to predict the results of "Trae young and his amazing friends."  As I said earlier...we'll be "fine."  Though, there is a glaring historical gap between contenders and middling "fine" teams.  YES there are a number of boxes that all contenders must check, but that gap between them and the rest of the field is defined by a singular qualitative and quantifiable commonality.  It's that "other" guy. 

[Final_quest]

Coming into the year I thought Hunter could be the future starter, and didn’t expect to go lukewarm on him.  Low offensive efficiency mixed with above average but not shut down D.  Still on the fence with him.  

Cam was better than I thought, but he still seems like a wanna be rec league all star.  His defense is good but he is turnover prone and doesn’t create offense for others.  Inefficient and is only a net positive player when he is hot, which isn’t often enough.  

Honestly none of our wings have emerged.  It’s encouraging to see Huerter play his best game last night, but we’ve only seen flashes from all of the wings.  Bogi has actually been most consistent, but has played more like an average NBA starter, nothing exciting.  

[JayBirdHawk]

7 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Honestly none of our wings have emerged.

I said in the offseason, for us to take the next step one of our wings have to emerge as THE ONE...12 games in they're all treading water.

The only thing consistent has been their INCONSISTENCY. 

[ATLHawks3]

One thing that I want to say is that Kevin seems to play the best with Trae on the court of all our wings. I'd consider starting him if we're looking to shake things up a bit.

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, Wretch said:

In all this time, we've all seen the limits of a balanced team driven by one standout.

Nique and friends...
Smitty and friends..
JJ and friends...

 

Found this interesting. 

Nique Era

First, I think it is a no-brainer that Nique was the one standout on his team.  Nique and friends works.

Joe's Time in Atlanta

JJ and friends is not at all clear to me.  Horford was outstanding and it was when he joined the team that we took the leap into a consistent playoff squad.  If you look numerically, here is the leader by year during the Joe era in Win Shares:

2006 - Joe by 0.3 WS

2007 - Childress by 0.4 WS (over Joe)

2008 - Childress by 0.6 WS (over Joe)

2009 - Joe by 0.7 WS (over Bibby and Al)

2010 - Al by 1.6 WS (over Smoove; Joe was 2.5 WS behind)

2011 - Al by 3.7 WS (over Smoove; Joe was 5.9 WS behind and that wasn't driven by injury)

2012 - Josh by 0.4 WS (over Joe; Al led the team in WS/48 by a large margin but was hurt most of the season)

So Joe led the team only two years in his entire time in Atlanta and only by very small margins those two seasons.  I think Joe was the best player on the team overall but it isn't by a large margin and I can be talked into an argument for Horford.  Horford's best numbers definitely put Joe's to shame.

Smitty Time

Smitty is definitely one of the bunch for me.  He was with the team for 5 years.  Made 1 All-Star team in that time.  Deke was multiple DPOY.  Mookie was his co-equal partner in crime and usually bested him in metrics like WS, PER, VORP, etc.  I don't see the gap at all.  Smitty's primary role was scorer and the best teams in that time were really balanced in that regard.  For example, the 56 win 1997 team had Smitty at 20 ppg, Laettner at 18 ppg, and Mookie at 17.5 ppg.  The only year he led by a significant margin was the last hurrah in 1998 and that was a step back from the prior season.  (Notably, Mookie also led the team in scoring during Smitty's time).  So I see this as really a group effort with Mookie, Smitty and Deke as the co-leads.

[Hawkmoor]

I've been saying for years that the Hawks should sign DeMar DeRozen and it wasn't met favorably on the board. The Hawks could have signed him numerous times. He has some mileage now, but Chicago has proven that if he doesn't have to carry the load, he is a big piece. He is that piece ( and comes waaaay cheaper than a Zach Levine would have who I also like) that the Hawks need.  The Bulls have jumped ahead of the Hawks with that move.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[Final_quest]

6 hours ago, Wretch said:

Point is, we have enough test samples to predict the results of "Trae young and his amazing friends."  As I said earlier...we'll be "fine."  Though, there is a glaring historical gap between contenders and middling "fine" teams.  YES there are a number of boxes that all contenders must check, but that gap between them and the rest of the field is defined by a singular qualitative and quantifiable commonality.  It's that "other" guy. 

Completely agree with your post.  Hawks will be fine is code for make the playoffs.  We most likely lose in the 2nd round, possibly make the ECF, and a snowballs chance at the finals. 

Most of the champions have at least two guys who could make a list like the NBA top 75 all time greats.  Talking about Josh Childress completely misses the point of your post.  

[Wretch]

On 11/10/2021 at 12:46 PM, AHF said:

Found this interesting. 

Nique Era

First, I think it is a no-brainer that Nique was the one standout on his team.  Nique and friends works.

Joe's Time in Atlanta

JJ and friends is not at all clear to me.  Horford was outstanding and it was when he joined the team that we took the leap into a consistent playoff squad.  If you look numerically, here is the leader by year during the Joe era in Win Shares:

2006 - Joe by 0.3 WS

2007 - Childress by 0.4 WS (over Joe)

2008 - Childress by 0.6 WS (over Joe)

2009 - Joe by 0.7 WS (over Bibby and Al)

2010 - Al by 1.6 WS (over Smoove; Joe was 2.5 WS behind)

2011 - Al by 3.7 WS (over Smoove; Joe was 5.9 WS behind and that wasn't driven by injury)

2012 - Josh by 0.4 WS (over Joe; Al led the team in WS/48 by a large margin but was hurt most of the season)

So Joe led the team only two years in his entire time in Atlanta and only by very small margins those two seasons.  I think Joe was the best player on the team overall but it isn't by a large margin and I can be talked into an argument for Horford.  Horford's best numbers definitely put Joe's to shame.

Smitty Time

Smitty is definitely one of the bunch for me.  He was with the team for 5 years.  Made 1 All-Star team in that time.  Deke was multiple DPOY.  Mookie was his co-equal partner in crime and usually bested him in metrics like WS, PER, VORP, etc.  I don't see the gap at all.  Smitty's primary role was scorer and the best teams in that time were really balanced in that regard.  For example, the 56 win 1997 team had Smitty at 20 ppg, Laettner at 18 ppg, and Mookie at 17.5 ppg.  The only year he led by a significant margin was the last hurrah in 1998 and that was a step back from the prior season.  (Notably, Mookie also led the team in scoring during Smitty's time).  So I see this as really a group effort with Mookie, Smitty and Deke as the co-leads.

LOL...and in all this time you've known me, you know that my penchant for rhetoric clouds the message.  I mean, in the same sentence that I say "balanced team", I literally say that one player stands out.  Which is it?  lol 

I also won't jump on the metrics merry-go-round.  For reference, I'm a cybersecurity engineer (former sysadmin) and this is and has always been quite literally my job...Iol I build SIEM content and I parse, correlate, extract data all day long.  So to be clear, I understand the numbers.  I just don't bother with them.  Win shares is a better one, but ultimately it's purely quantitative data.  These numbers will show you that there is a gap between Nique, Smitty, and JJ.  In the same way, my numbers will show a user failing to enter his password vs. an automated script using a service account failing authentication. 

What the latter numbers won't show you just by looking at them, is the difference between a malicious script failing and a misconfigured script failing.  There are certain qualities that you'd have to examine outside of the numbers to make the distinction.  To be clear, and to backtrack, Nique and Trae are outliers in Hawks history (the history that I've watched), in NBA history if we're being honest. So, I don't mean at all to imply that all of our other drivers were in that category and definitively more productive/valuable that the team.  Though, they held a similar role/identity. They are who we leaned on (yes *le sigh* offensively) during key moments of the game. 

Looking at certain statistics, those key moments are blended into the rest which is why I don't like advanced metrics (that and I do it all day long)...

Now go ahead and find a crunch-time statistic for me AHF...lol Let me save you the trouble and give you the words you're looking for, "Your logic is sound and you are absolutely correct."  I will say though.  If we continue to run "Trae and friends" we won't get out of the ECF's barring a major injury to a contender in our way...no matter how well we play.  I'll place an avatar bet on it!

*edit - It also occurred to me that there was an additional quality to the 90's teams in that they were balanced by design.  Lenny Wilkens didn't like "stars" or star-driven offenses.  He purposefully ran a balanced ship with a super-tight rotation and was instrumental in seeing Nique out the door (their differences publicly noted in a few articles).