[Haynes] Trae pressuring management to play more off-ball

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, High5 said:

Playing off the ball isn’t just allowing others to dribble while he stands near mid court though. He needs to move to make it more effective.

The offense that we run could dictate that too.  But our offense doesn't promote player movement like that. These guys are highly dependent on Trae to get open looks from 3.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, mrhonline said:

I'm more intrigued by the power play than the content. If Trae wants to win immediately, all bets are off.

I personally like the fact that it may be him that's putting pressure on the organization to be better.  We've never had that type of star player here. Our other stars were either quiet as church mice, or they didn't have that type of leverage.

Trae is active on social media and sees everything that people are saying about him and the team. So in order for he and the Hawks to stay relevant, the talent around him must stay of high quality.

Clutch Sports have taught him well.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I personally like the fact that it may be him that's putting pressure on the organization to be better.  We've never had that type of star player here. Our other stars were either quiet as church mice, or they didn't have that type of leverage.

Yes this! Even Nique never publicly said it despite being a superstar. This is good I agree. Trae carried us to a quicker timetable. We can win now with him.

[niremetal]

8 hours ago, High5 said:

Playing off the ball isn’t just allowing others to dribble while he stands near mid court though. He needs to move to make it more effective.

Underrated post. I have not seen a single good counter to this: if Trae wanted to have catch-and-shoot opportunities off the ball, why does he stand at the front of the logo twiddling his thumbs whenever a teammate has the ball? When was the last time we saw him do a give-and-go (a basic play that plenty of guys do without a specific play call)? When he passes it to a wing, why does he then plant himself 35 feet from the basket? Why doesn't he demonstrate any sense of spacing or even awareness of where he should move so his teammates will have better angles to kick it out to him?

The JC play that @Peoriabird posted is actually a great example of that. Trae was LITERALLY OFF SCREEN when JC released the pass, despite the fact that anyone with eyes could have seen the trap (and JC's need for help) coming from a mile away, and there was plenty of real estate closer to the three-point line that would have given JC an easier pass.

Trash his teammates' playmaking skills all you want.* But if he's actually interested in catch-and-shoot opportunities, he has absolutely not shown any indication of that in the way he plays. This is the NBA. You take the opportunities you're given, and he hasn't done that. So sorry, Chris Haynes--there's a disconnect between what Rayford says and the way his son actually plays. And I think the latter is a better sign of what Trae would actually do in an off-ball role.

* I'll point out that Bogi has always had a good assist rate (particularly for someone who has always played the 2-guard) and low turnover rate and absolutely has the ability to drive-and-dish well, as he's demonstrated quite often, particularly last season--when Trae would still stand at the logo picking his nose whenever Bogi had the ball.

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The offense that we run could dictate that too.  But our offense doesn't promote player movement like that. These guys are highly dependent on Trae to get open looks from 3.

This is a fair point--and one that also suggests that the problem is not personnel, but system. I agree that the system (or rather, the lack thereof) is a major problem. But trades won't fix the system. And even (lack-of-)system issues don't explain why Trae has showed no interest in or awareness of literally high-school-level principles of off-ball movement in games.

Edited January 19, 2022 by niremetal

[JTB]

2 hours ago, niremetal said:

Underrated post. I have not seen a single good counter to this: if Trae wanted to have catch-and-shoot opportunities off the ball, why does he stand at the front of the logo twiddling his thumbs whenever a teammate has the ball? When was the last time we saw him do a give-and-go (a basic play that plenty of guys do without a specific play call)? When he passes it to a wing, why does he then plant himself 35 feet from the basket? Why doesn't he demonstrate any sense of spacing or even awareness of where he should move so his teammates will have better angles to kick it out to him?

The JC play that @Peoriabird posted is actually a great example of that. Trae was LITERALLY OFF SCREEN when JC released the pass, despite the fact that anyone with eyes could have seen the trap (and JC's need for help) coming from a mile away, and there was plenty of real estate closer to the three-point line that would have given JC an easier pass.

Trash his teammates' playmaking skills all you want.* But if he's actually interested in catch-and-shoot opportunities, he has absolutely not shown any indication of that in the way he plays. This is the NBA. You take the opportunities you're given, and he hasn't done that. So sorry, Chris Haynes--there's a disconnect between what Rayford says and the way his son actually plays. And I think the latter is a better sign of what Trae would actually do in an off-ball role.

* I'll point out that Bogi has always had a good assist rate (particularly for someone who has always played the 2-guard) and low turnover rate and absolutely has the ability to drive-and-dish well, as he's demonstrated quite often, particularly last season--when Trae would still stand at the logo picking his nose whenever Bogi had the ball.

This is a fair point--and one that also suggests that the problem is not personnel, but system. I agree that the system (or rather, the lack thereof) is a major problem. But trades won't fix the system. And even (lack-of-)system issues don't explain why Trae has showed no interest in or awareness of literally high-school-level principles of off-ball movement in games.

Im not going to defend Trae about standing out near the logo but him standing far back was a design from LP if I recall it right.

while it’s obvious that McMillan has made some adjustments on both ends (offense and defense)….it appears this part of the offense was not changed.

I will have to find the articles, interviews, or whatever about Trae standing in the “4pt area” (as they called it) for kick out purposes. It was apart of the scheme if I recall it right.

I truly believe it’s what he was taught for this offensive scheme. Telling Trae to get closer to the 3pt line or whatever it’s not something hard for Trae to do and while he has a low defensive BBIQ that is not the case offensively even when tries to thread the needle on his passes.

 

[JTB]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The offense that we run could dictate that too.  But our offense doesn't promote player movement like that. These guys are highly dependent on Trae to get open looks from 3.

Why is this so hard for our fans to accept!…it’s not insulting to the other players on the team it’s just facts and perhaps a new scheme can fix some of the flaws but not all of course.

some of these flaws from the other players strictly comes down to their skills and abilities. Bogi , Huerter, Hunter, and when we had Reddish can all create for themselves somewhat but they cannot do it consistently throughout a whole game and sometimes they’re unable to do it multiple games at a time.

[kg01]

I'm not here to trash Trae at all but I do think there are things he can do to help his teammates 'playmake'.

Moving to open space is an easy one.  That said, we don't know if the coaching staff is telling him to stand in certain places or w/e so it's hard to be overly critical.

We can tell what we see but we don't know what they've been told.

[mrhonline]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Can I put in my push for Giddey right here??

I saw (what I'm assuming is) your trade idea on RealGM. The first response of "Oh, that's tough" cracked me up.

No chance he's moved, though. He's a promising talent.

7 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I personally like the fact that it may be him that's putting pressure on the organization to be better.

For now, it's kinda fun, huh? 

[mrhonline]

10 hours ago, Sothron said:

You can see mypost in the other thread.

I'm glad people are enjoying that thread, but (respectfully) I can't follow it. Too stream-of-consciousness for my taste.

[JayBirdHawk]

Not the first time Trae is requesting 'help'.  This is from 2019............

Quote

Frustration has been mounting within the Hawks organization at times and league sources say it resulted in an emotional locker room scene involving star point guard Trae Young following a recent loss…After a 130-118 home loss to Brooklyn on Wednesday, one high-ranking team official was seen telling Young that the team would be getting him some help on the roster soon, according to multiple sources. The trade deadline is about two months away.

Traded for Clint Capela at the deadline.  Then in the offseason used all their capspace to sign veteran free agents: Gallo, Bogi, Rondo and traded for Snell.

[JTB]

46 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm not here to trash Trae at all but I do think there are things he can do to help his teammates 'playmake'.

Moving to open space is an easy one.  That said, we don't know if the coaching staff is telling him to stand in certain places or w/e so it's hard to be overly critical.

We can tell what we see but we don't know what they've been told.

I’m looking for the article…it may have been from Chris Kirshner but I recall the design of the scheme was for Trae to stand near what they called “4pt line” in other words super far back from the actual 3pt line….Dame and Portland utilize this strategy too.
 

I think some criticism should certainly be on Trae because YES he can do more off ball HOWEVER as far as the scheme goes I don’t believe he should be overly criticized based on the sets we run.

 

The scheme is not really in Traes control…it was built around him because that’s how LP did it but now it’s in McMillans control and I think it’s obvious it is especially considering the adjustments of focusing on the mid range….as most know McMillans has never been an offensive type of coach so ball and player movement doesn’t seem to be a strong point for Nate. I hear Nate preaching more about moving the ball from side to side not necessarily player movement.
 

Perhaps adding a second go to playmaker will make McMillans offense (or really LPs offense cause that’s what they are still doing with McMillan tweaks)….showcase this offense scheme to a whole new level. Per the stats we are 2nd best offense in the nba as a team but WE all know that stat is skewed by Traes offensive greatness.

[shakes]

13 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

He turns the ball over 4 times as much as any other teammate.  Maybe it should be the other way around.

This is such a stupid ignorant comment.    Hawks average the fewest turnovers of any team in the league.  Trae has the ball in his hands significantly more than any other player on the team.     

 

Those two sentences are connected.  Figure it out.

[Atlantaholic]

13 hours ago, h4wkfan said:

His dad isn’t wrong. Trae shoots nearly  5.5% higher on catch and shoot 3s than pull-ups (41.5 vs 36.1).
 

And for the last week to few weeks, it’s been pretty obvious trae has tried to defer to teammates. And up until last night, nobody really stepped up.  We need a legit second option to take things off trae. Be it Hunter or a new guy. 

Hopefully Hunter and Huerter can alternate being that guy. 

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, shakes said:

This is such a stupid ignorant comment.    Hawks average the fewest turnovers of any team in the league.  Trae has the ball in his hands significantly more than any other player on the team.     

Those two sentences are connected.  Figure it out.

Agree with the bolded, but have a semi-related rant.

The 'turnovers' thing galls me every time I hear it as a criticism of Trae.  Like, do people not understand the players with the most assists are typically also the players with the most turnovers?

I challenge my guy @Peoriabird to look up who averaged the most turnovers in the entire league the two years Nash won his MVPs.  It goes with the territory, for the most part.

Now, obviously, you don't want a guy slingin' it all over the place.  But your lead guard is usually going to average the most turnovers just because.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Agree with the bolded, but have a semi-related rant.

The 'turnovers' thing galls me every time I hear it as a criticism of Trae.  Like, do people not understand the players with the most assists are typically also the players with the most turnovers?

I challenge my guy @Peoriabird to look up who averaged the most turnovers in the entire league the two years Nash won his MVPs.  It goes with the territory, for the most part.

Now, obviously, you don't want a guy slingin' it all over the place.  But your lead guard is usually going to average the most turnovers just because.

It was kinda tongue in cheek in response to the claim that Trae doesn't trust his teammates with the ball in their hand even though he is the most careless with it.

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It was kinda tongue in cheek in response to the claim that Trae doesn't trust his teammates with the ball in their hand even though he is the most careless with it.

Oof.  You got me out here like ...

In my defense, when was the last time you made a non-serious post?

[aali34]

@NBASupes Couldn't fit what I tried to post in a quote response so I'll just continue here.

His setup looks good here.

Also here.

I wanna atleast try it out before shutting the door on it. He doesn't look comfortable with it, but he wasn't comfortable taking midrange jumpers either before this year.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

@NBASupes Couldn't fit what I tried to post in a quote response so I'll just continue here.

His setup looks good here.

Also here.

I wanna atleast try it out before shutting the door on it. He doesn't look comfortable with it, but he wasn't comfortable taking midrange jumpers either before this year.

These are all falling away. That's not his normal setup. 

[Mikey]

15 hours ago, Sothron said:

You can see mypost in the other thread. I told you guys Trae is talking to Travis. He wants a playmaker and shot creator to play with him. That will mean Trae can come off the ball for catch and shoot. And yes, he does want to do that. Not all the time but mix it up. Give defenses another wrinkle. It would absolutely make the team better both on offense AND defense. Trae not having to run the show and shoot the ball all the time would mean he has more energy on defense.

A lot of what you said previously has been coming out by the media this week...

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, Mikey said:

A lot of what you said previously has been coming out by the media this week...

I don't want to brag but it is nice to see things being validated by accepted media outlets. I have to point out that both @NBASupes and @thecampster have also been validated multiple times as well.