this will either be Trae's wake up call or the beginning of his demise

[shakes]

Pains me to write this since I am clearly the biggest Trae stan on this board or anywhere really outside of his immediate family (and even then I think I'm a bigger fan than his sister).  But, this series has really exposed him.  It has exposed his refusal to become an effective off the ball player.    Some might say this is Nate's fault and while Nate clearly sucks as a coach, I put the burden on Trae to recognize faults in his own game (something he has had no problem doing in terms of on ball play) and work to improve on that.

It bothers me that a player with elite BBIQ can't recognize such a basic fault in his own game.  Is he just stubborn and lazy?  is that why he refuses to run the baseline and cut through screens to try and get open off ball?   Is it all on Nate refusing to move from the same 2 man offensive scheme we use on every posssession?  How hard is it to NOT just stand in the corner when you don't have the ball?  It's not.  All it takes is EFFORT and COMMITTMENT.   

 

It really bothers me as a broken down athlete myself.   When I was 43 I played hockey for Team USA 40 and over in the Maccabi Games in Israel.    We finished 3/4 in the prelims and then made a miracle run to win the Gold medal by beating Russia and Canada back to back.   All guys 40+ and every single one of them skated like their lives literally depended on it every single second we were on the ice.   No one was making millions or any money at all.  In fact we all paid a lot just to be there.   Everyone playing for pride and country and playing harder than every single person on this shit bag Atlanta Hawks team.  Watching this team disgusts me.

 

I grew up watching MJ and the Bulls so I'm spoiled.  I know what a contender looks like.  I know what a team that cares about winning looks like.   I also know what a bag of shit looks like.  Guess which one is the Hawks?

One thing about those MJ teams is that everyone played defense like their lives depended on it.  They did that because the best players on the team busted their butts on defense.  If you are a role player and you see MJ busting it on defense how do you not try just as hard?  You don't.   That's a problem with this team.  Our best player is our second worst defensive player (Bogi being even worse) and not only that, but he barely tries.  yes, he tries more than he did in the past, but his effort and effectiveness are still lacking.

Show some F-ing pride in your defense.  when I played basketball 1000 years ago we prided ourselves in our defense just as much as our offense.  We tried to shut our guy down every game,  not just outscore him.   Trae is quick and has good IQ, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to stay in front of more players out there.

 

So yea, I'm saying this series and being humbled is going to be make or break for Trae.  Either he comes back next year and adds off the ball play to his game and starts taking more pride on the defensive end or else get ready for more and more disappoinment.

 

 

[Peoriabird]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:00 AM, shakes said:

Pains me to write this since I am clearly the biggest Trae stan on this board or anywhere really outside of his immediate family (and even then I think I'm a bigger fan than his sister).  But, this series has really exposed him.  It has exposed his refusal to become an effective off the ball player.    Some might say this is Nate's fault and while Nate clearly sucks as a coach, I put the burden on Trae to recognize faults in his own game (something he has had no problem doing in terms of on ball play) and work to improve on that.

It bothers me that a player with elite BBIQ can't recognize such a basic fault in his own game.  Is he just stubborn and lazy?  is that why he refuses to run the baseline and cut through screens to try and get open off ball?   Is it all on Nate refusing to move from the same 2 man offensive scheme we use on every posssession?  How hard is it to NOT just stand in the corner when you don't have the ball?  It's not.  All it takes is EFFORT and COMMITTMENT.   

 

It really bothers me as a broken down athlete myself.   When I was 43 I played hockey for Team USA 40 and over in the Maccabi Games in Israel.    We finished 3/4 in the prelims and then made a miracle run to win the Gold medal by beating Russia and Canada back to back.   All guys 40+ and every single one of them skated like their lives literally depended on it every single second we were on the ice.   No one was making millions or any money at all.  In fact we all paid a lot just to be there.   Everyone playing for pride and country and playing harder than every single person on this shit bag Atlanta Hawks team.  Watching this team disgusts me.

 

I grew up watching MJ and the Bulls so I'm spoiled.  I know what a contender looks like.  I know what a team that cares about winning looks like.   I also know what a bag of shit looks like.  Guess which one is the Hawks?

One thing about those MJ teams is that everyone played defense like their lives depended on it.  They did that because the best players on the team busted their butts on defense.  If you are a role player and you see MJ busting it on defense how do you not try just as hard?  You don't.   That's a problem with this team.  Our best player is our second worst defensive player (Bogi being even worse) and not only that, but he barely tries.  yes, he tries more than he did in the past, but his effort and effectiveness are still lacking.

Show some F-ing pride in your defense.  when I played basketball 1000 years ago we prided ourselves in our defense just as much as our offense.  We tried to shut our guy down every game,  not just outscore him.   Trae is quick and has good IQ, there's no reason he shouldn't be able to stay in front of more players out there.

 

So yea, I'm saying this series and being humbled is going to be make or break for Trae.  Either he comes back next year and adds off the ball play to his game and starts taking more pride on the defensive end or else get ready for more and more disappoinment.

 

 

This is were it starts period! Posters continue to bring up Hunter's name after a loss like this and it makes me wonder. No doubt Hunter needs to improve but he is way down on the list of players I thought played poorly in this game starting with Trae Young. In fact you nailed it...he has played poorly throuhout the entire playoffs this year.

[hylndr11]

Im with u, im just not sure his body can take that. 

[kg01]

7 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

This is were it starts period! Poster continue to bring up Hunter's name after a loss like this and it makes me wonder. No doubt Hunter needs to improve but he is way down on the list up player I thought played poorly in this game starting with Trae Young. In fact you nailed it...he has played poorly throuhout the entire playoffs this year.

Just because someone brings up Hunter's name doesn't mean they consider him high on the list of issues with this team.

@shakes, this thread saddens me but I can't turn away in disbelief.  It's like that time I saw a bird of prey stalking a rabbit in my parents' front yard.

It didn't end well for bugs.  Although it was strange to see it unfold (I mean, what is this Natural Geographic or something?), I felt it all made sense in the cold, unruly grand scheme of things.

That's what this OP was to me.

Edited April 25, 2022 by kg01

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Just because someone brings up Hunter's name doesn't mean they consider him high on the list of issues with this team.

It just doesn't make an sense! In fact, it sounds like whataboutism to distract from core problem in these playoffs which has been Trae Young.

[kg01]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

It just doesn't make an sense! In fact, it sounds like whataboutism to distract from core problem is these playoffs which has been Trae Young.

It makes sense.  You're just on a one-man crusade to avenge Hunter's good name, apparently, so you go off whenever you see someone say anything about him.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

It makes sense.  You're just on a one-man crusade to avenge Hunter's good name, apparently, so you go off whenever you see someone say anything about him.

So you saying after watching that game, everybody except a select few Hawk fan would think the story line was how bad Hunter was in that game and would proceed to highlight his flaws over everything else that happened in that game?

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So you saying after watching that game, everybody except a select few Hawk fan would think the story line was how bad Hunter was in that game and would proceed to highlight his flaws over everything else that happened in that game?

I don't think anybody came away thinking the 'story line' of that game was Hunter.  You have a chip on your shoulder about him.  I'm trying to help you see that.  It's because I care, peo.

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

I don't think anybody came away thinking the 'story line' of that game was Hunter.  You have a chip on your shoulder about him.  I'm trying to help you see that.  It's because I care, peo.

So why is his name being brought up in the game thread then? I sure as heck didn't bring him up.

[kg01]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

So why is his name being brought up in the game thread then? I sure as heck didn't bring him up.

Because people have the ability to talk about things and they don't necessarily only talk about things in order of importance.

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So you saying after watching that game, everybody except a select few Hawk fan would think the story line was how bad Hunter was in that game and would proceed to highlight his flaws over everything else that happened in that game?

Trae might as well have been playing with one arm tied behind his back and his shoelaces tied together.  The story of the series is that the Hawks don't have ANYONE that can take pressure off of Trae.  Yes, he was largely ineffective this series in basically every game except for the last 1.5 quarters of Game 3. 

BUT WHY?  Because Miami is a vastly superior team that decided to focus all of its superior coached talent on the only player that has the ability to beat them......Trae Young.  So you say Trae is singularly at fault in this series or that the blame starts with him.  I say what could he do differently? The better team decided to take him away.  What is he supposed to do to combat that GIVEN THAT there's no one else on the team that can be relied upon to create and run the offense.  Delon, for all his good qualities, isn't a starting PG.  Hunter has no handle.  Bogi is a sharp shooter that can run things in spurts, but not for a whole game. Huerter is the same. 

And @shakes is 100% correct in saying Trae HAS to develop some semblance of an off-ball game.  But is it realistic to expect him to do that within the context of a Playoff Series when he hasn't been doing it all year?  I don't think so.  

This series boiled down to the fact that Miami had the personnel to take Trae away to the extent that NO OTHER TEAM in the NBA has been able to do. And the Hawks, sadly, had no answer for it.  In my opinion, it's a team construction issue.  Yes, Trae needs to adapt going forward, but to lay the series blame at his feet is not reading the situation accurately, imo.    

[NBASupes]

Being a good off ball player is a skill set. You gotta have stamina off the ball. You gotta constantly move for a purpose. You gotta have tremendous off the ball feel. High BBIQ is a req but Trae actually has that one. And you gotta have great off ball speed and move like a cross country stud. 

Trae just don't got any of that other than the BBIQ. 

This is his own verison of the Jordan rules. MJ didn't figure them out. They got old and Pippen dominated them after his got exposed too. We don't have a Pippen, we need to trade for em. 

[AtLaS]

Every star player has humbling experiences in their career.  Trae is no different.  I have no doubt Trae will take this personal and get much better from this.  The dude is an extremely hard worker.  This will likely benefit the team going forward, as we know we absolutely need a 2nd scoring option.  We were #2 in the league in offense, we haven't seen a team affect us this badly before and thus we haven't even worked on Trae playing off ball.  

To me it's not about Heurter/Bogi/Hunter/JC/Capela, those guys are role players and can all be good in the right situation.  But that's it, they are role players.  They don't have the ability to take over when an elite defensive team like Miami decides to completely take Trae out of the game.  It's not their fault, they just aren't good enough for that.  We need a 2nd scoring option, period.  All of the greats had a 2nd scoring option when they won championships.  It's honestly a miracle how far Trae took us last year without a clear #2 option.  Bogi and Hunter weren't even healthy.  There probably aren't 10 other players in the NBA that could've taken us that far with that supporting cast, much less at 22 years old.

Edited April 25, 2022 by AtLaS

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Being a good off ball player is a skill set. You gotta have stamina off the ball. You gotta constantly move for a purpose. You gotta have tremendous off the ball feel. High BBIQ is a req but Trae actually has that one. And you gotta have great off ball speed and move like a cross country stud. 

Trae just don't got any of that other than the BBIQ. 

This is his own verison of the Jordan rules. MJ didn't figure them out. They got old and Pippen dominated them after his got exposed too. We don't have a Pippen, we need to trade for em. 

Trae doesn't have to be an elite off ball player.  But he can do more than just stand on the side watching when he doesn't have the ball.  That's the point.  I don't think anyone is expecting him to develop into Steph Curry without the ball.  But again, anything with Trae developing his game is SECONDARY to going out and getting another playmaker to work beside him.  THAT"S what this team needs.  All this other noise is just that.  

[AHF]

My take is similar to re's first post above on this not worrying me with Trae for the long run but certainly exposing we need a talent upgrade around him. 

For Game 4 specifically, I would love to be a fly on the wall to know how much of it was a product of Trae having rolled him ankle and not being able to handle the ball, penetrate, etc. like normal  and how much of it was a deliberate strategic decision to by Nate to play him off the ball.  

If Nate's strategy was to play him off the ball, then I have a couple of other high impact strategies for him that should have similar chances for success:

1. Have Cap shoot a crap ton of 3's.  Teams leave him open behind the arc.  We know 3 points are better than 2.  How could this go wrong?
2. Rely on Hunter to dominate the boards and assume a point forward role.  With 8 rebounds and 1 assist total over 4 games, we would totally catch Miami by surprise.  They would be completely unprepared for this keen strategic manuever!
3. Have Bogi and Huerter live at the free throw line.  Really, I suppose this could be any of our wings but it is a common play for wings to take the ball to the hole and draw fouls as well as for good jump shooters to be able to get guys in the air to foul them.  Since Bogi and Kevin combined average less than 3 FTA per 36, we should definitely rely on them to feast at the line with easy, high % points.
4. Have JC wear a tiny ring on his injured finger.  It should have a Hawks symbol on it and he can bump it with Gallo wonder twins style to power the team up.  If he smashes the ring over his swollen finger, it will surely bring him and the team good luck and good results.
5. Park OO in the corner on offense to spread the floor.  We all know that corner 3's are very dangerous shots.  OO has double letters.  That means he should draw a double team.  If he draws a double team in the corner, that leaves the rest of the team playing 4 on 3 on offense.  Easy money.

I'm sure there are even better ideas out there but these are just a few gems that fit into the same category of "have Trae play off the ball" for predictable positive results.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Being a good off ball player is a skill set. You gotta have stamina off the ball. You gotta constantly move for a purpose. You gotta have tremendous off the ball feel. High BBIQ is a req but Trae actually has that one. And you gotta have great off ball speed and move like a cross country stud. 

Trae just don't got any of that other than the BBIQ. 

This is his own verison of the Jordan rules. MJ didn't figure them out. They got old and Pippen dominated them after his got exposed too. We don't have a Pippen, we need to trade for em. 

We had CamPippen on the roster when he was a rookie.

Too bad he preferred being CamRickyDavis instead.

C'mon, that's gotta earn me some supes hate right?

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Trae doesn't have to be an elite off ball player.  But he can do more than just stand on the side watching when he doesn't have the ball.  That's the point.  I don't think anyone is expecting him to develop into Steph Curry without the ball.  But again, anything with Trae developing his game is SECONDARY to going out and getting another playmaker to work beside him.  THAT"S what this team needs.  All this other noise is just that.  

It is also a skill set that needs to be developed outside of the playoffs.  You can't bust that out in Game 4 after not having had Trae work consistently on developing his off-ball skills all year and expect anything good to happen.

The only time Trae has played that role in the past has been when he is too hurt to play the role of the primary ballhandler and playmaker.

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

It is also a skill set that needs to be developed outside of the playoffs.  You can't bust that out in Game 4 after not having had Trae work consistently on developing his off-ball skills all year and expect anything good to happen.

The only time Trae has played that role in the past has been when he is too hurt to play the role of the primary ballhandler and playmaker.

I agree.  There was nothing Trae was going to do off ball last night that was going to change the outcome of the game.  He has to develop that part of his game.  I'm just pointing out that he doesn't have to ever be ELITE at it.  Once they have a secondary playmaker that they can rely on, all he'll really need to be is serviceable off ball.  He'll still be ELITE with the ball in his hands and teams won't be able to afford to focus all their attention on him.  

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Trae doesn't have to be an elite off ball player.  But he can do more than just stand on the side watching when he doesn't have the ball.  That's the point.  I don't think anyone is expecting him to develop into Steph Curry without the ball.  But again, anything with Trae developing his game is SECONDARY to going out and getting another playmaker to work beside him.  THAT"S what this team needs.  All this other noise is just that.  

Off ball play is a lot harder than you think. It's a legit NBA skill set.

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

It is also a skill set that needs to be developed outside of the playoffs.  You can't bust that out in Game 4 after not having had Trae work consistently on developing his off-ball skills all year and expect anything good to happen.

The only time Trae has played that role in the past has been when he is too hurt to play the role of the primary ballhandler and playmaker.

He doesn't have really anything for being an off ball player other than BBIQ. You need a lot more than that to be even a below average off ball player. Dre and Cam are a million times better at it than Trae and they aren't even average at. They are below average off ball players. You gotta have the physical skill for it.