this will either be Trae's wake up call or the beginning of his demise

[kg01]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

It is also a skill set that needs to be developed outside of the playoffs.  You can't bust that out in Game 4 after not having had Trae work consistently on developing his off-ball skills all year and expect anything good to happen.

The only time Trae has played that role in the past has been when he is too hurt to play the role of the primary ballhandler and playmaker.

Didn't the former coach, who everyone said was the only one to blame for our struggles, want Trae to develop an off-ball game?

(I honestly don't know if he did, just messin' with folks.)

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Off ball play is a lot harder than you think. It's a legit NBA skill set.

That is why I saw my alternative strategies have a similar chance for success.  Trae is known to be a very weak off-ball player.  He has no skill or feel for playing off the ball.  Asking him to do it in a Game 4 only makes sense if he is hurt (in which case he should be playing fewer minutes as well).  You might as well ask him to guard Embiid in the post as ask him to win the game by playing off the ball.  He just doesn't have that skill today.  You don't put people in positions where they lack the skills to contribute in key games like this.  Brain-dead strategy unless he was hurt and simply couldn't play on the ball.

Again, relying on Trae to play successfully off the ball is like relying on Kevin Huerter to get to the line 12 times in a game.  It isn't happening without an entire season's worth of development and anyone who would make that their game plan shouldn't be responsible for drawing up game plans.  That is dead on arrival.

When you combine Trae's skill for playing off the ball with the rest of the team's ability to lead the offense, that is an absolute recipe for disaster.  (Which I suppose is a fair description of how bad that game was.)

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

That is why I saw my alternative strategies have a similar chance for success.  Trae is known to be a very weak off-ball player.  He has no skill or feel for playing off the ball.  Asking him to do it in a Game 4 only makes sense if he is hurt (in which case he should be playing fewer minutes as well).  You might as well ask him to guard Embiid in the post as ask him to win the game by playing off the ball.  He just doesn't have that skill today.  You don't put people in positions where they lack the skills to contribute in key games like this.  Brain-dead strategy unless he was hurt and simply couldn't play on the ball.

Again, relying on Trae to play successfully off the ball is like relying on Kevin Huerter to get to the line 12 times in a game.  It isn't happening without an entire season's worth of development and anyone who would make that their game plan shouldn't be responsible for drawing up game plans.  That is dead on arrival.

Trae was tired. They had to give him a break. MIA kept attacking him on PnRs and in mismatches. Add the doubles, he can't get in a groove and it becomes extremely tough

[Diesel]

34 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Trae might as well have been playing with one arm tied behind his back and his shoelaces tied together.  The story of the series is that the Hawks don't have ANYONE that can take pressure off of Trae.  Yes, he was largely ineffective this series in basically every game except for the last 1.5 quarters of Game 3. 

BUT WHY?  Because Miami is a vastly superior team that decided to focus all of its superior coached talent on the only player that has the ability to beat them......Trae Young.  So you say Trae is singularly at fault in this series or that the blame starts with him.  I say what could he do differently? The better team decided to take him away.  What is he supposed to do to combat that GIVEN THAT there's no one else on the team that can be relied upon to create and run the offense.  Delon, for all his good qualities, isn't a starting PG.  Hunter has no handle.  Bogi is a sharp shooter that can run things in spurts, but not for a whole game. Huerter is the same. 

And @shakes is 100% correct in saying Trae HAS to develop some semblance of an off-ball game.  But is it realistic to expect him to do that within the context of a Playoff Series when he hasn't been doing it all year?  I don't think so.  

This series boiled down to the fact that Miami had the personnel to take Trae away to the extent that NO OTHER TEAM in the NBA has been able to do. And the Hawks, sadly, had no answer for it.  In my opinion, it's a team construction issue.  Yes, Trae needs to adapt going forward, but to lay the series blame at his feet is not reading the situation accurately, imo.    

 

Added to that..

Trae started off missing his top weapon.   Clint Capela.   Our offense this season has been PNR heavy.   Starts with PNR and runs into our sets.   Well, we didn't have Clint to start.   OO is not Clint.  1/2JC is not Clint.  Gallo is not Clint.  So we lose 1/3 of our known offense.   

We decided to use the over attention that Miami gives to have Trae facilitate.   Trae does that.. his gravity pulls 2 and a possible (shading) and 2 people are wide open... corner three.  But damn.. The misses. The misses.   If we had Kyle Korver instead of Kev... We'd be getting ready to play the next round. 

For the series... we have hit 49 of 150 three pointers... and freaking Kevin noKnox have hit 6 of 10.

So of our rotational players... we are 42/135 on three pointers.. that's 31.1% from three.

Not even 1 out of every three shots. 

More importantly.. about 10 makes per game and we put up about 33.4 attempts per game. 

Somewhere, we have convinced ourselves that we are a three point shooting team.

Milwaukee = 38%

Chicago = 28%

Boston = 34%

Brooklyn = 45%

Philly = 45%

Toronto = 34%

Miami = 37%.

we have to embrace who we are. We are not one of the better three point shooting teams. 

 

 

[Diesel]

When we do get that secondary scorer, I believe Trae's role will be corner three.   He's excellent at that shot, he just never makes it to that position. 

 

[shakes]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Off ball play is a lot harder than you think. It's a legit NBA skill set.

I disagree with this.  yes, it's a skill, but it's one of the easier skills to master.  It's really 90% just effort.   Keep moving all the time.  Run the baseline, run your player through screens.   dive in and out of lane traffic.  Use your superior BBIQ to anticipate where the play is going and use that to create an organic screen.  

Is it simple?  No.  but is it difficult compared to 100 other things players have to do on the court?  No.  And Trae's size is actually an advantage when it comes to slipping through traffic.

 

It really is all about effort and commitment.  Run the baseline.  Run through screens, get behind 3pt line and present a target.  If nothing there then wait for opponent to over pursue and then do it all over again.    run your defender ragged.

 

Let me make another analogy to my old man hockey playing career.   Not to brag, but I was an elite offensive player in old man hockey who played even less defense than Trae.  Every once in a while a guy on the other team would attempt to face guard me in the offensive zone.  I would tell him I hope you packed your luggage cause I'm about to take you on a tour of the offensive zone.  Then I would proceed to constantly move my feet and get to different open spots for the entire duration we had the puck.  i would take a guy for a ride around the net 4 or 5x in a single possession just to see how committed he was to his craft.

The point being for as much effort as it takes to run and make cuts all game long, it is much more effort for the guy chasing you.

 

When Trae goes off ball he just stands basically at mid court calling for the ball back.      He's too smart to be that stupid. 

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae was tired. They had to give him a break. MIA kept attacking him on PnRs and in mismatches. Add the doubles, he can't get in a groove and it becomes extremely tough

Better to let him sit and get some energy back in his legs and have the bench mob try to change the flow of the game than to keep playing Trae but ask him to impact the game off the ball, IMO.  Off-the-ball Trae has never been effective.  We would all like to see him improve that skill but it is like asking a terrible 3pt shooter to start popping them in the playoffs.  You don't do that.  You have them work on their 3 in the offseason, incorporate it into their game over the course of the season, and then use that tool in the post-season.  You can't ask them to flex a skill they haven't developed.

[shakes]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Better to let him sit and get some energy back in his legs and have the bench mob try to change the flow of the game than to keep playing Trae but ask him to impact the game off the ball, IMO.  Off-the-ball Trae has never been effective.  We would all like to see him improve that skill but it is like asking a terrible 3pt shooter to start popping them in the playoffs.  You don't do that.  You have them work on their 3 in the offseason, incorporate it into their game over the course of the season, and then use that tool in the post-season.  You can't ask them to flex a skill they haven't developed.

I disagree with the bolded analogy.   Running off the ball and trying to get open is much easier than a bad 3 point shooter all of the sudden shooting a bunch of 3s in the playoffs.  One is 90% skill and the other is 90% effort.   Effort is easy.

[kg01]

8 minutes ago, shakes said:

I disagree with the bolded analogy.   Running off the ball and trying to get open is much easier than a bad 3 point shooter all of the sudden shooting a bunch of 3s in the playoffs.  One is 90% skill and the other is 90% effort.   Effort is easy.

I think you're both right.  Effort is the first step, then he has to know where to go, when, etc.  Timing matters, just can't be a headless chicken out there.  That's where the skill, repetitions come in.

 I'm deeply offended by this remark.

[Guest]

Kyle Korver should be hired to work with Trae on off ball stuff this summer.

[macdaddy]

Hunter stepped up in this series and that's great.   I'm not knocking the guy but i think we've set the bar too low.   is 17points/ 2 rebounds / .3 assists something to truly celebrate from your starting 3.   Honestly he's been ok but combine that with 8/3/4 from the starting 2 and it's not great production on the wing.    Especially considering we have hobbled weapons in the front court and Trae is getting double and triple teamed. 

[shakes]

22 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I think you're both right.  Effort is the first step, then he has to know where to go, when, etc.  Timing matters, just can't be a headless chicken out there.  That's where the skill, repetitions come in.

 I'm deeply offended by this remark.

of course there is timing, skill and art to playing off ball, but for someone who already has a high BBIQ it really should be no more difficult than just convincing your feet to move.

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Trae might as well have been playing with one arm tied behind his back and his shoelaces tied together.  The story of the series is that the Hawks don't have ANYONE that can take pressure off of Trae.  Yes, he was largely ineffective this series in basically every game except for the last 1.5 quarters of Game 3. 

BUT WHY?  Because Miami is a vastly superior team has a vastly superior defense that decided to focus all of its superior coached talent on the only player that has the ability to beat them......Trae Young.  So you say Trae is singularly at fault in this series or that the blame starts with him.  I say what could he do differently? The better team decided to take him away.  What is he supposed to do to combat that GIVEN THAT there's no one else on the team that can be relied upon to create and run the offense.  Delon, for all his good qualities, isn't a starting PG.  Hunter has no handle.  Bogi is a sharp shooter that can run things in spurts, but not for a whole game. Huerter is the same. 

And @shakes is 100% correct in saying Trae HAS to develop some semblance of an off-ball game.  But is it realistic to expect him to do that within the context of a Playoff Series when he hasn't been doing it all year?  I don't think so.  

This series boiled down to the fact that Miami had the personnel to take Trae away to the extent that NO OTHER TEAM in the NBA has been able to do. And the Hawks, sadly, had no answer for it.  In my opinion, it's a team construction issue.  Yes, Trae needs to adapt going forward, but to lay the series blame at his feet is not reading the situation accurately, imo.    

All of of this, with the exception of my personal worthless and wretched opinion added after the strikethrough text.  I don't think Miami is that good.  They play the type of ball that looks great in regular the season, but shows its flaws in the post season.  We don't have the toughness, experience, and consistency to get through their defense - which to me is the beginning and end of this story.  They are just flat out choking Trae, scrambling on defense, and punking the team.  This is not surprising to anyone who has followed Pat Riley over the decades.  The way he sets the tone...it's a whole mood.

I don't expect that Trae is going to just start magically moving without the ball, but I'll also add that unless we upgrade the offense, I don't see it happening anytime soon.  By upgrade I don't just mean a reliable shot creator.  I also mean upgrading our offensive system to one that promotes ball/player movement.

Side note - Should we take the L on this series, I fully expect Miami to get exposed by a team that matches their intensity and can actually score the ball.

[Dynamo]

Trae’s physical conditioning and willingness to diversify his skillsets are key to making progress.

 

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

Trae’s physical conditioning and willingness to diversify his skillset are keys to making progress.

 

Agreed and of course everyone on the roster should upgrade their skill sets. Our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd options should not be to shoot and hit 3's with a few floaters and lobs thrown in against the weaker defenses.

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, Dynamo said:

Trae’s physical conditioning and willingness to diversify his skillsets are key to making progress.

 

It would help but, and much to my guy @Peoriabird chagrin, it's not all on him.

Literally every other team member is coming up short in some way as well.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

I disagree with this.  yes, it's a skill, but it's one of the easier skills to master.  It's really 90% just effort.   Keep moving all the time.  Run the baseline, run your player through screens.   dive in and out of lane traffic.  Use your superior BBIQ to anticipate where the play is going and use that to create an organic screen.  

Is it simple?  No.  but is it difficult compared to 100 other things players have to do on the court?  No.  And Trae's size is actually an advantage when it comes to slipping through traffic.

 

It really is all about effort and commitment.  Run the baseline.  Run through screens, get behind 3pt line and present a target.  If nothing there then wait for opponent to over pursue and then do it all over again.    run your defender ragged.

 

Let me make another analogy to my old man hockey playing career.   Not to brag, but I was an elite offensive player in old man hockey who played even less defense than Trae.  Every once in a while a guy on the other team would attempt to face guard me in the offensive zone.  I would tell him I hope you packed your luggage cause I'm about to take you on a tour of the offensive zone.  Then I would proceed to constantly move my feet and get to different open spots for the entire duration we had the puck.  i would take a guy for a ride around the net 4 or 5x in a single possession just to see how committed he was to his craft.

The point being for as much effort as it takes to run and make cuts all game long, it is much more effort for the guy chasing you.

 

When Trae goes off ball he just stands basically at mid court calling for the ball back.      He's too smart to be that stupid. 

This ain't the YMCA. You need far more ability and tools than just effort to be effective at this.

Edited April 25, 2022 by NBASupes

[shakes]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

This ain't the YMCA. You need far more ability and tools than just effort to be effective at this.

I believe Trae has the toolbox already, but we don't know for sure because of the zero effort part.

[REHawksFan]

39 minutes ago, Wretch said:

All of of this, with the exception of my personal worthless and wretched opinion added after the strikethrough text.  I don't think Miami is that good.  They play the type of ball that looks great in regular the season, but shows its flaws in the post season.  We don't have the toughness, experience, and consistency to get through their defense - which to me is the beginning and end of this story.  They are just flat out choking Trae, scrambling on defense, and punking the team.  This is not surprising to anyone who has followed Pat Riley over the decades.  The way he sets the tone...it's a whole mood.

I don't expect that Trae is going to just start magically moving without the ball, but I'll also add that unless we upgrade the offense, I don't see it happening anytime soon.  By upgrade I don't just mean a reliable shot creator.  I also mean upgrading our offensive system to one that promotes ball/player movement.

Side note - Should we take the L on this series, I fully expect Miami to get exposed by a team that matches their intensity and can actually score the ball.

I think Miami's defense allows them to get stops and then get out and run into some easy points. They have some pretty reliable shooters and a few guys that can get to the rim and score in the paint.  I think Philly can pose some problems for them is Embiid isn't actually hurt that bad, but the Heat defense is legit and can create some easy buckets for them vs anyone, imo.  

[Diesel]

13 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I think Miami's defense allows them to get stops and then get out and run into some easy points. They have some pretty reliable shooters and a few guys that can get to the rim and score in the paint.  I think Philly can pose some problems for them is Embiid isn't actually hurt that bad, but the Heat defense is legit and can create some easy buckets for them vs anyone, imo.  

Nah.  Im in agreement with Wretch. 

The issue is they have someone to key on and they don't have strong worries from anybody else.   

They pack it in and close down the passing lanes for Trae.    Trae can't get inside.   Our outside shooters should feast... it's no coincidence that all of 2nd qtr shots came from outside.   We didn't have anything going inside.

If Miami is lucky enough to get past us.. Philly may beat them in 5.  (depending on Embiid).   You force Philly to shoot outside.. they do that well.   You play them tight... Maxy and Harden will have a field day.   And they don't have a real answer for Embiid.  He Ain't Trae.  He can get a call.