Kirschner and Hollinger...

[Diesel]

 

Just highlights of the conversation:

Quote

John Hollinger: Not really. Young was pretty shockingly bad, to the point that I wondered if there was an undisclosed injury, but I also think it spoke to the limitations of the rest of the roster.  The Heat could completely load up on stopping Trae and didn’t have to worry a lot about anyone else, especially once Bogdan Bogdanovic’s knee troubles flared up again at the end of the series. A healthy John Collins might have made a difference, but in the bigger picture, the Hawks need their players at the two, three and four to be more consistently threatening.

Also, this is more of a playoff concern than a regular-season one. In the big picture, Atlanta still had the league’s second-best offense with Young at the controls. The fact the Hawks still barely won half their games was because of the defense.

Quote

Hollinger: There are two separate questions regarding Hunter and an extension. First, what is the state of his game? And second, what is the state of his knee? 

Quote

Hollinger: I didn’t think there is one player on this roster that I would consider untouchable. The Hawks have to get better on defense and have to add at least another reliable wing creator to take some of the load off Trae. Bogdanovic was brought in to be that guy — and often has been — but his knee issues are becoming worrisome enough to wonder how long that can continue.

Really, if there was a high-level wing or combo forward on the table, who would you say “no way” to on including? Even with Capela and Okongwu, the fact the Hawks have both makes it much easier to trade one of them.

Quote

Kirschner: To your last point, this is what I said Monday in my story on predicting who stays and who goes: “Collins is the ultimate team guy and someone any franchise should want to have on its roster.” He puts up efficient numbers every season, can pick-and-pop at a high level and has turned into a good defender. But if the Hawks have a desire to get a second star in Atlanta, Collins might have to be in the deal, because he’s valuable and you usually have to part with a good player in those kinds of trades. Ideally, he could still be a part of the team moving forward, but it might be tough.

Quote

Instead of declaring somebody off limits, let me say something else: I do think the Hawks need to be a bit careful about throwing Collins out with the bathwater. He’s not a superstar, but he does a lot of things well, fills a few different niches depending on need and is entering his age-25 season.

 

[macdaddy]

They actually make good points.  2,3,4 positions were very weak against Miami.  Hunter going off actually concerns me a bit because it just feels like a Cam moment.

JC is a winner in my opinion.   If he's gone then we've got a real passive roster so someone really aggressive better be coming our way.  

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

They actually make good points.  2,3,4 positions were very weak against Miami.  Hunter going off actually concerns me a bit because it just feels like a Cam moment.

JC is a winner in my opinion.   If he's gone then we've got a real passive roster so someone really aggressive better be coming our way.  

I think the Hunter "going off" has a lot more to do with the attention focused on stopping Trae than it did on Hunter being a big time scorer now.  In 57 other games this year, he didn't show much.   The difference between him and Cam last year is that we didn't have a reference to pull from for Cam.   Cam missed most of last season.  Plus, Cam did his work with Trae off the court.   Cam always played better with Trae off the court because Cam will end up being a high usage player.   He don't fit well in a team framework. 

 

I know guys have Hunter on their untouchable list but... I don't know if he truly deserves that honor.   He's as much let's watch and see as JJ. 

 

[gurpilo]

If you compare the production you are getting from SG and the money you have invested on it, makes no sense. Average production on offense, well below average on defense. Bogi or Huerter need to go, they are redundant and weak. If someone like Brogdon is available is a must. We need to add size and defense at SF, PF and C, we need competent defenders.

We need a good backup SF, we need to add size and defense at backup PF and C. Gallo is not a good fit to Collins, both Capela and OO lack size.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, gurpilo said:

If you compare the production you are getting from SG and the money you have invested on it, makes no sense. Average production on offense, well below average on defense. Bogi or Huerter need to go, they are redundant and weak. If someone like Brogdon is available is a must. We need to add size and defense at SF, PF and C, we need competent defenders.

We need a good backup SF, we need to add size and defense at backup PF and C. Gallo is not a good fit to Collins, both Capela and OO lack size.

Disagree strictly on Bogi. He has been a good value contract (when he plays). His defense is not "well below average" it was above average last year and a little below average this year according to RAPTOPR, and his offensive production has been fantastic on a dollar/WAR basis. You won't find a lot of wings making 16 mil (outside of rookie contracts) who put up his numbers, not sure there's anyone, to be honest.

I do agree having BOTH him and Huerter makes no sense. They are the same player except Huerter is a little worse on both ends. Huerter needs to be replaced with a defensive player. IMO it should have been Wright getting the bulk backup SG minutes. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

Disagree strictly on Bogi. He has been a good value contract (when he plays). His defense is not "well below average" it was above average last year and a little below average this year according to RAPTOPR, and his offensive production has been fantastic on a dollar/WAR basis. You won't find a lot of wings making 16 mil (outside of rookie contracts) who put up his numbers, not sure there's anyone, to be honest.

I do agree having BOTH him and Huerter makes no sense. They are the same player except Huerter is a little worse on both ends. Huerter needs to be replaced with a defensive player. IMO it should have been Wright getting the bulk backup SG minutes. 

I actually think Huerter and Hunter are more similar players.  Hunter is just a better defender.   If either of them become as good of an offensive player as Bogi then we're golden.  

[Atlantaholic]

20 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I actually think Huerter and Hunter are more similar players.  Hunter is just a better defender.   If either of them become as good of an offensive player as Bogi then we're golden.  

From a production standboint Huerter and Bogi's numbers are almost identical outside of PPG. Similar TS%, similar FG%, similar assist numbers, similar turnover and rebounding numbers. Per 36 mins:

Huerter

TS%: 57%, 4.2rpg, 3.3apg, 1.5tov 14.7 ppg

Bogi:

TS%: 56% 4.9rpg, 3.8apg, 1.4tov 18.5 ppg

So Bogi is a higher scoring Huerter with slightly better defensive metrics.

Last year their numbers were also very similar except Bogi was  A LOT more efficient to go along with the higher volume production.

At 16 million, Bogi is fantastic value. Only Gary Trent JR has a similar contract at similar production, and Bogi is better than him at basically everything outside of (sometimes) scoring.

 

PS- I will say one major thing about Bogi which may or may not be related to his injuries is how incredibly streaky he is. When he is "on" His contract is an absolute steal. You are getting Jaylen Brown/ Bradley Beal type of production for half the price. When he is off (which is around half the time) he is trash. I wouldn't be opposed to trading him for a player that is more consistent. 

 

[shakes]

26 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Disagree strictly on Bogi. He has been a good value contract (when he plays). His defense is not "well below average" it was above average last year and a little below average this year according to RAPTOPR, and his offensive production has been fantastic on a dollar/WAR basis. You won't find a lot of wings making 16 mil (outside of rookie contracts) who put up his numbers, not sure there's anyone, to be honest.

 

this is nonsense.  Telling me that Bogi's defense was above average is like Joe Biden telling me there's no gas crisis while the price goes to $5 per gallon.

 

Complete and utter nonsense.   And if that is supported by some advanced stat that only tells a reasonable person with working eyes that the stat is completely flawed and should be disregarded from here on out.

 

He's the worst defensive player in the NBA and there's nothing a stat can say that will convince me otherwise.

[Atlantaholic]

Just now, shakes said:

this is nonsense.  Telling me that Bogi's defense was above average is like Joe Biden telling me there's no gas crisis while the price goes to $5 per gallon.

 

Complete and utter nonsense.   And if that is supported by some advanced stat that only tells a reasonable person with working eyes that the stat is completely flawed and should be disregarded from here on out.

 

He's the worst defensive player in the NBA and there's nothing a stat can say that will convince me otherwise.

Ok. I guess I'll take your perception as an objective truth. What a dumbass I am for looking at every available piece of measurable evidence instead of trusting your clearly unbiased take.

The fact he allowed less opponents points per 100 possessions than both Huerter and Hunter, the fact he allowed a less FG% against than any wing outside of Wright, the fact he ranked better than either Hunter or Huerter in simple defensive +- and was a lot better than Huerter in Defensive Raptor and right behind Hunter. The fact he ranked second in steals on the team behind Wright. 

All of this means nothing because you hate that he gives up "take" fouls when the other team has numbers. Got it. 

 

References:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/opponent/?sort=OPP_FG_PCT&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Per100Possessions&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612737

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2022.html

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

[Sothron]

Hunter is not considered off limits by the Hawks any longer. I can confirm that. He is being discussed in potential deals as a positive asset. That's not to say he's definitely gone but he's at least 50/50 to come back.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Hunter is not considered off limits by the Hawks any longer. I can confirm that. He is being discussed in potential deals as a positive asset. That's not to say he's definitely gone but he's at least 50/50 to come back.

Why is the Hawk organization like this?  How do you create a culture by having trade rumors circulated about every Hawk player except the dude who performed the worst in the playoffs???

[shakes]

5 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Ok. I guess I'll take your perception as an objective truth. What a dumbass I am for looking at every available piece of measurable evidence instead of trusting your clearly unbiased take.

The fact he allowed less opponents points per 100 possessions than both Huerter and Hunter, the fact he allowed a less FG% against than any wing outside of Wright, the fact he ranked better than either Hunter or Huerter in simple defensive +- and was a lot better than Huerter in Defensive Raptor and right behind Hunter. The fact he ranked second in steals on the team behind Wright. 

All of this means nothing because you hate that he gives up "take" fouls when the other team has numbers. Got it. 

 

References:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/opponent/?sort=OPP_FG_PCT&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Per100Possessions&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612737

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2022.html

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/

everything you just posted is BS.      If what you posted is even remotely accurate then that means that I know absolutely zero about basketball.  Maybe even less than zero.   I'm willing to bet my 40 years of avidly following this sport and my 20 years of avidly playing the sport that Bogi is one of the absolute worst defenders in the NBA vs any recently invented advanced stat that says otherwise.

 

I guarantee that in person you couldn't tell me with a straight face that Bogi is an above average defensive player.  If Bogi is even a below average defensive player I'll eat all the sand and nickels in @kg01 pockets, even the oddly warm ones.

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Why is the Hawk organization like this?  How do you create a culture by having trade rumors circulated about every Hawk player except the dude who performed the worst in the playoffs???

Haha sorry Bud if your talking about Trae, he’s not going anywhere. Waste of breath.

[Atlantaholic]

7 minutes ago, shakes said:

everything you just posted is BS.      If what you posted is even remotely accurate then that means that I know absolutely zero about basketball.  Maybe even less than zero.   I'm willing to bet my 40 years of avidly following this sport and my 20 years of avidly playing the sport that Bogi is one of the absolute worst defenders in the NBA vs any recently invented advanced stat that says otherwise.

 

I guarantee that in person you couldn't tell me with a straight face that Bogi is an above average defensive player.  If Bogi is even a below average defensive player I'll eat all the sand and nickels in @kg01 pockets, even the oddly warm ones.

Or maybe you are biased? I know it's crazy to even think it, but it's possible there's something you don't like about Bogi so you focus on his bad defensive possessions dispraportionately in comparison to other players?

If he is so terrible at defense why don't the players he guards light him up? That's all measured in the NBA today.

Aslo PS. I'm not saying he was an above average defender this year. I said he was slightly below average for his position. Fact is NO ONE on the team outside of three guys (Okonguw, Wright, and Cap) were consistently good defenders last year, which is why we were dreadful defensively. Last year Bog (and Huerter) were both above average defense which helps explain why the team was ranking around 10th in defensive rating once Nate took over.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, shakes said:

everything you just posted is BS.      If what you posted is even remotely accurate then that means that I know absolutely zero about basketball.  Maybe even less than zero.   I'm willing to bet my 40 years of avidly following this sport and my 20 years of avidly playing the sport that Bogi is one of the absolute worst defenders in the NBA vs any recently invented advanced stat that says otherwise.

 

I guarantee that in person you couldn't tell me with a straight face that Bogi is an above average defensive player.  If Bogi is even a below average defensive player I'll eat all the sand and nickels in @kg01 pockets, even the oddly warm ones.

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

I'll eat all the sand and nickels in @kg01 pockets, even the oddly warm ones.

He’s got puppy treats in there too. You gonna eat those? Lil heart shaped..

[Peoriabird]

I am so tired of this front office!  No one will want to come here and when they do, they will be looking to leave as soon as they can.  You can't continue to treat your players like their relationship with the fans and teammates don't matter. I don't feel good about this team's future anymore.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Or maybe you are biased? I know it's crazy to even think it, but it's possible there's something you don't like about Bogi so you focus on his bad defensive possessions dispraportionately in comparison to other players?

If he is so terrible at defense why don't the players he guards light him up? That's all measured in the NBA today.

Bogi is a below average defender in my view. He’s not horrible and tries to stay in front of his guy. Due to being taller it helps him but his body isn’t built for that poundage on D. 

I’m a Bogi fan too. Love his shooting. Laser like, him and Gallo, when they are on there aren’t many hotter players in the league.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I am so tired of this front office!  No one will want to come here and when they do, they will be looking to leave as soon as they can.  You can't continue to treat your players like their relationship with the fans and teammates don't matter. I don't feel good about this team's future anymore.

I honestly think we have to flip your guy JC. He needs to be playing BIGGER for his position and he gets tossed around like a gnat despite the second jump ability and bounce. When his athleticism goes away.. oh boy.

We need to package him or Hunter and Capela. We need to retool a bit.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I honestly think we have to flip your guy JC. He needs to be playing BIGGER for his position and he gets tossed around like a gnat despite the second jump ability and bounce. When his athleticism goes away.. oh boy.

We need to package him or Hunter and Capela. We need to retool a bit.

For who???

[Atlantaholic]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Bogi is a below average defender in my view. He’s not horrible and tries to stay in front of his guy. Due to being taller it helps him but his body isn’t built for that poundage on D. 

I’m a Bogi fan too. Love his shooting. Laser like, him and Gallo, when they are on there aren’t many hotter players in the league.

He was very bad early on in the year this year, but he was playing with his bum knee and had no lateral movement. Once he got healthy his defense was fine, not good, but not bad. Last year during his "hot" streak that lasted 40 games he was more than solid on defense. That's a fact. I think Shakes probably is focusing on what Bogi did early on in the year and that has clouded his objectivity towards him the rest of the season. Defense was an enormous problem for the Hawks this season, and all of our wings outside of Wright (yes, including Hunter) were overall, ranging from below average to terrible.