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Filling out the roster


sturt

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4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Etienne impressed me.

Thought Etinenne likely got pulled out of the game for chucking.

Agree that I love the hustle, but he's gotta show better discernment than that. Look forward to what he'll show in College Park. Says something about how they feel about him that he was their first E10 signing, or at least I think it does.

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4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Etienne impressed me. The guy look liked he was giving 110%, can we bring him back at some point? I mean, I get that he didn’t stand out but the hustle kinda keeps the backups on their toes. 
 

Good luck to them!

He's on a E10. He will stay with us. 

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5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't think that Gay like Mo, will be happy being 3rd string PF

3rd string PF for a contender or 2nd string PF for a youth movement.

Neither sounds all that appealing.

 

A theme of this interview is "I've got something to prove." He says it a couple of times. His demeanor is that of someone who is trying to make the best of a bad situation for him personally... he's positive... he talks about how he wants to help the team... this isn't a bad apple, if that's the intended insinuation.

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't like that he has a PO for next season.

Me, either.

But the pros outweigh that con... for the reasons I stated. If you have counterpoints, I welcome the dialogue.

 

Incidentally, might get quite a bit of PT early in the season, while BogBog is getting back in the swing, and while your rookies are getting acclimated to the speed of the game. Could see him getting minutes backing up at SF as well as PF.

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8 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

I do think he fits his role off the bench better than Gay

Intriguing. Why, though?

Gay's been steady. JDay's been declining.

Gay's a physical fit at what this front office apparently considers the prototype for the 3rd PF... ie, someone who can be your legit small ball PF.

Think we've got more than enough JDays on the team as it is. He's expendable. And there's a void that needs filled.

 

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51 minutes ago, sturt said:

Intriguing. Why, though?

Gay's been steady. JDay's been declining.

Gay's a physical fit at what this front office apparently considers the prototype for the 3rd PF... ie, someone who can be your legit small ball PF.

Think we've got more than enough JDays on the team as it is. He's expendable. And there's a void that needs filled.

 

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I'll give Gay some credit that he has some phyiscality that has allowed him to be used even as a center in some lineups, but I don't think it's really been to his team's benefit. He's fine defensively, but I don't think he's efficient enough on offense to justify the usage he has at the position he occupies. Holiday is coming off a down season and has never been particularly efficient either, but he also doesn't take as many shots. If I'm choosing between the two, I'd rather have Holiday who might be a weaker offensive player, but isn't going to take shots away from better players on the court. 

I know luxury tax is an issue, but someone like Millsap for the min would basically serve the same purpose Gay would for us. Gay is probably the better player, but Millsap is experienced and familiar with the organization. Hopefully our young guys step up though and relegate whichever vet we have to a permanent seat on the bench.

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1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

I'll give Gay some credit that he has some phyiscality that has allowed him to be used even as a center in some lineups, but I don't think it's really been to his team's benefit. He's fine defensively, but I don't think he's efficient enough on offense to justify the usage he has at the position he occupies. Holiday is coming off a down season and has never been particularly efficient either, but he also doesn't take as many shots. If I'm choosing between the two, I'd rather have Holiday who might be a weaker offensive player, but isn't going to take shots away from better players on the court. 

I know luxury tax is an issue, but someone like Millsap for the min would basically serve the same purpose Gay would for us. Gay is probably the better player, but Millsap is experienced and familiar with the organization. Hopefully our young guys step up though and relegate whichever vet we have to a permanent seat on the bench.

Justin Holiday has been in decline for two seasons, not just one. And he doesn't fill a void, whereas Milsap or Gay does.

I love the guy. But basketball is a business, and business can be cruel. You could do a lot worse for a 3rd unit wing. But you can't do a lot worse for a 2nd unit wing. As long as Griffin and/or Martin supplant JDay's minutes and push him back to the 3rd unit, that's fine. But again, he's superfluous, and when you have a hole in another place in the roster, it only makes sense to try to take the superfluous and turn that into something that fills that hole to some degree. That said, reality is I don't think we'll be able to move him since if there's one position where teams tend to have ample numbers, it's in that SG/SF role.

Sap? Sap may have hit a wall last season. Hard to say since he played such limited minutes. But seems more likely than not.

 

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41 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Gay has not played SF in many years.

Gay has not played much SF since 18-19... so four years. But he has played a little. Let's just say he's played none, though. The emphasis here isn't on his ability to play SF, of course, but rather that we have a void that he would project to be able to fill at PF.

Hadn't realized it until just now, but looking at 82games data, he arguably was the Spurs best player in his last two years there.

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11 hours ago, sturt said:

Justin Holiday has been in decline for two seasons, not just one. And he doesn't fill a void, whereas Milsap or Gay does.

I love the guy. But basketball is a business, and business can be cruel. You could do a lot worse for a 3rd unit wing. But you can't do a lot worse for a 2nd unit wing. As long as Griffin and/or Martin supplant JDay's minutes and push him back to the 3rd unit, that's fine. But again, he's superfluous, and when you have a hole in another place in the roster, it only makes sense to try to take the superfluous and turn that into something that fills that hole to some degree. That said, reality is I don't think we'll be able to move him since if there's one position where teams tend to have ample numbers, it's in that SG/SF role.

Sap? Sap may have hit a wall last season. Hard to say since he played such limited minutes. But seems more likely than not.

 

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My gut says that Nate loves Justin Holiday so I'd kind of be shocked if we see him dealt.  I think he is very confident that Holiday will be where Nate wants him to be doing what he wants him to do on defense and Nate values that a ton.  I see Holiday as a featured guy off the bench with no shortage of minutes this season.

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35 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'd kind of be shocked if we see him dealt

"Shocked" is a bit strong, but like I said, it's doubtful that Schleilds (assuming they're in charge and not Nate) can find a trade partner.

I don't discount that the head coach has influence on the front office. I said all along that conventional wisdom was that Nate wanted no part of coaching the center from PHX who had given his brother some degree of headache, and would have made that known to Schleilds.

I do think that there's a difference when you're discussing a big move that has huge on-the-court and off-the-court implications versus when you're discussing this situation where you have a vet playing a position where you have multiple other options while having a void at a place in the roster otherwise... love has limits, and basketball is a business... came up with that all by myself. 🙂 So it's less about love, more about the difficulty of finding a team willing to take JDay in exchange for a legitimate resolution to that void.

Like Jay, I'm not sure Schleilds would pursue this one with Gay having the player option for next season, but I also don't rule out that they would, and I also don't rule out that Gay might just be desperate enough and wealthy enough that the money priority gives way to the priority on going out with some degree of glory (and thus, acquiescing to flipping that option to a mutual one).

 

 

34 minutes ago, AHF said:

I see Holiday as a featured guy off the bench with no shortage of minutes this season.

I can see that. But it bothers me. It should bother everyone. Sooner AJ can assert himself, the better.

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19 minutes ago, sturt said:

"Shocked" is a bit strong

I would be legit shocked.  The way I see Holiday for Nate is his security blanket.  This may entirely be me projecting and Nate doesn't value him that much but I would be truly shocked.

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4 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would be legit shocked.  The way I see Holiday for Nate is his security blanket.  This may entirely be me projecting and Nate doesn't value him that much but I would be truly shocked.

I will have to agree with you AHF as usual :hmm:....since I posted awhile ago that I think JHoli will remain a Hawk until his contract ends. 😀 

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8 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would be legit shocked.  The way I see Holiday for Nate is his security blanket. 

 

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Nate would go to the mat for Justin Holiday.

 

I would be shocked if Schleilds let that on its own determine whether to make a deal that, to them, puts the team in a better position.

 

In this case, it's not just Gay being obtained, but adding just enough room under the tax line to accommodate a vet min contract.

 

Those two assets together should easily be enough to overcome any security blanket issues. But again again... if only it were that simple... Gay has that 23-24 player option.

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3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I will have to agree with you AHF as usual

Speaking of "shocked."

Shocked, I tell you.

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

since I posted awhile ago that I think

(It's always been a two-way street anyway, so, yeah.)

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1 minute ago, sturt said:

 

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that Nate would go to the mat for Justin Holiday.

 

I would be shocked if Schleilds let that on its own determine whether to make a deal that, to them, puts the team in a better position.

 

In this case, it's not just Gay being obtained, but adding just enough room under the tax line to accommodate a vet min contract.

 

Those two assets together should easily be enough to overcome any security blanket issues. But again again... if only it were that simple... Gay has that 23-24 player option.

I could see Holiday being dealt in a gamechanger deal but not this kind of "filling out the end of the bench" type of deal.  This is one where reasonable minds can differ and we'll just have to see but if Gay didn't have the option I would still be outright shocked to see that deal get done.  I strongly suspect that Holiday was targeted because of Nate's past with him and that he won't want anyone else unless that player is a true difference maker (by which I mean someone more like DM than Gay).

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9 minutes ago, AHF said:

I could see Holiday being dealt in a gamechanger deal but not this kind of "filling out the end of the bench" type of deal.  This is one where reasonable minds can differ and we'll just have to see but if Gay didn't have the option I would still be outright shocked to see that deal get done.  I strongly suspect that Holiday was targeted because of Nate's past with him and that he won't want anyone else unless that player is a true difference maker (by which I mean someone more like DM than Gay).

Our main difference isn't in Nate's love for Holiday... though, yeah, you do go considerably farther in your imagination than I do.

Our main difference is in whether Schleilds would decline to do a deal that they perceive to put the team in a better position all because Nate's in love with a player.

Gay resolves a void. And room to add any vet FA willing to take the minimum to the team at whatever point in the season one is needed is pretty salient.

I don't think Schleilds lets Nate's love for a player preempt a deal that accomplishes those things. That's letting emotion overcome reason... ie unreasonable.

But/and again again again... I don't see this deal as imminent b/c reasonable minds would consider that player option to be the monkey wrench. It's unlikely that that could be resolved to Schleilds satisfaction, even if Utah were willing to talk a little draft compensation.

 

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20 minutes ago, sturt said:

Speaking of "shocked."

Shocked, I tell you.

(It's always been a two-way street anyway, so, yeah.)

 

On 9/28/2022 at 11:07 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm calling it - JHol will be here for the duration of his contract.

Here's why I think he will be here: He's a veteran for the 2nd unit - to start the season he will be slotted between Tyrese/AJ at SG and JJ at PF....they're gonna need some help being in the right position.

The bolded more than anything is why JHoli is here.

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We are definitely going to need and see a lot of JHoliday.  We can't count on the rooks or Bogi yet which leaves him as the only good backup at 2/3.

Gay is still in Utah because they can't find anyone to take him and a bad contract for a 36 year old who they gave a 3 year contract to but didn't even like him enough to give him playoff minutes. 

Jazz Forward Rudy Gay 'Still has Something to Prove' (msn.com)

Quote

Gay was signed as a free agent last year to a three-year, $18 million contract, and to this point, it just hasn’t worked out for both sides. He averaged 8.1 points and 4.4 rebounds per game with the Jazz. 

Gay fell out of the rotation in the playoffs and whether he starts the season on Utah’s roster is still up in the air. The Jazz are now on the hook for $12 million with Gay over the next two years and are facing a trade market that doesn’t exist for a player that just turned 36 years old.

 

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