Post-Moratorium Insider Rumor Thread

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

I’m not saying max salaries put a cap on a team.  They do the opposite.  Where LeBron and Wade might command salaries  large enough to fill a team’s entire cap in the absence of max limitations, the max salary restriction makes it so they can add Chris Bosh and other quality players.  It allows teams to stack the roster and the players aren’t sacrificing anything to make it happen since they still get their max or close to it either way.  Taking 15M when you can only make 17M is easy compare to passing up 40M.

When I said put a cap on team's, I was meaning put on how much a team can pay a player....  

Whereas Mule is saying that having that Maxed out player limits the amount of players a team can have... It all goes together.

So you keep using the Miami example... what were the other salaries on that Miami team?

LAYER	2010/11	2010/11(*)
Chris Bosh	$14,500,000	$18,074,424
LeBron James	$14,500,000	$18,074,424
Dwyane Wade	$14,200,000	$17,700,471
Mike Miller	$5,000,000	$6,232,560
Udonis Haslem	$3,500,000	$4,362,792
Joel Anthony	$3,300,000	$4,113,489
Eddie House	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Juwan Howard	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Zydrunas Ilgauskas	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Jamaal Magloire	$1,229,255	$1,532,281
Carlos Arroyo	$1,223,166	$1,524,691
Erick Dampier	$1,129,469	$1,407,896
James Jones	$1,069,509	$1,333,155
Mario Chalmers	$854,389	$1,065,006
Da'Sean Butler	$473,604	$590,353
Dexter Pittman	$473,604	$590,353
Patrick Beverley	$473,604	$590,353
Jerry Stackhouse	$222,712	$277,613
TOTALS	$66,205,855	$82,526,388

 

 

If you consider Eddie House on down, most of those guys had to sign for the league minimum to be a part of that team...

compare that to a fine financially structured team like the Hawks...

oe Johnson	$16,324,500	$20,348,686
Josh Smith	$11,600,000	$14,459,539
Jamal Crawford	$10,800,000	$13,462,330
Kirk Hinrich	$9,000,000	$11,218,608
Marvin Williams	$6,712,500	$8,367,212
Al Horford	$5,444,857	$6,787,079
Zaza Pachulia	$4,251,250	$5,299,234
Jeff Teague	$1,476,840	$1,840,898
Jason Collins	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Etan Thomas	$1,223,166	$1,524,691
Josh Powell	$1,069,609	$1,333,280
Hilton Armstrong	$992,680	$1,237,387
Damien Wilkins	$748,656	$933,208
Pape Sy	$473,604	$590,353
TOTALS	$71,469,843	$89,088,014

 

Same Year... Comparable Totals.  We pitched a bitch about Joe's salary... but we were not as top heavy as the Heat. So while not being a super team, we were able to add more good players under reasonable contracts than Miami.   They had good players who were ring chasing and had to take the minimum to play with them. 

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

When I said put a cap on team's, I was meaning put on how much a team can pay a player....  

Whereas Mule is saying that having that Maxed out player limits the amount of players a team can have... It all goes together.

So you keep using the Miami example... what were the other salaries on that Miami team?

LAYER	2010/11	2010/11(*)
Chris Bosh	$14,500,000	$18,074,424
LeBron James	$14,500,000	$18,074,424
Dwyane Wade	$14,200,000	$17,700,471
Mike Miller	$5,000,000	$6,232,560
Udonis Haslem	$3,500,000	$4,362,792
Joel Anthony	$3,300,000	$4,113,489
Eddie House	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Juwan Howard	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Zydrunas Ilgauskas	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Jamaal Magloire	$1,229,255	$1,532,281
Carlos Arroyo	$1,223,166	$1,524,691
Erick Dampier	$1,129,469	$1,407,896
James Jones	$1,069,509	$1,333,155
Mario Chalmers	$854,389	$1,065,006
Da'Sean Butler	$473,604	$590,353
Dexter Pittman	$473,604	$590,353
Patrick Beverley	$473,604	$590,353
Jerry Stackhouse	$222,712	$277,613
TOTALS	$66,205,855	$82,526,388

 

 

If you consider Eddie House on down, most of those guys had to sign for the league minimum to be a part of that team...

compare that to a fine financially structured team like the Hawks...

oe Johnson	$16,324,500	$20,348,686
Josh Smith	$11,600,000	$14,459,539
Jamal Crawford	$10,800,000	$13,462,330
Kirk Hinrich	$9,000,000	$11,218,608
Marvin Williams	$6,712,500	$8,367,212
Al Horford	$5,444,857	$6,787,079
Zaza Pachulia	$4,251,250	$5,299,234
Jeff Teague	$1,476,840	$1,840,898
Jason Collins	$1,352,181	$1,685,509
Etan Thomas	$1,223,166	$1,524,691
Josh Powell	$1,069,609	$1,333,280
Hilton Armstrong	$992,680	$1,237,387
Damien Wilkins	$748,656	$933,208
Pape Sy	$473,604	$590,353
TOTALS	$71,469,843	$89,088,014

 

Same Year... Comparable Totals.  We pitched a bitch about Joe's salary... but we were not as top heavy as the Heat. So while not being a super team, we were able to add more good players under reasonable contracts than Miami.   They had good players who were ring chasing and had to take the minimum to play with them. 

 

You should not be able to stand 3 all-nba players on a team through FA.  If they could get their true market value, each would be a team’s franchise player.  Instead, LeBron gets paid the same as other max players of the same age like past max deals for Andrew Wiggins.  GS has added multiple max players during their run because of these caps.  KD would have been offered more like 50M as one of the best 3 players in the game when he joined GS.  They only could add him (without him making a dramatic sacrifice) because of the maximum salary.  
 

Max salaries are there to inflate the salaries of the middle class players and to allow for the stacking of super teams.  The first is an admirable goal from a socialist kind of philosophy but the latter is a blight on the game.  
 

Miami would have paid Wade big. 

Cleveland would have paid LeBron big.

Toronto would have paid Bosh big.

But they can’t so the players all get together without giving up anything consequential.  Let the big dogs eat and it will make the league much more competitive, imo, because talent will be more evenly distributed.

[HawksNWaffles]

https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1546629375390466048?t=8pUK17LGxSPkOjyjn5of6A&s=19

For Myles Turner though? I assume some picks would be involved.

Edited July 11, 2022 by HawksNWaffles

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, HawksNWaffles said:

https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1546629375390466048?t=8pUK17LGxSPkOjyjn5of6A&s=19

For Myles Turner though? I assume some picks would be involved.

Is Ayton gonna be Drummond? Oh man, I mean Drummond was awesome statistically but didn’t have much impact on winning even in the playoffs a bit.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, HawksNWaffles said:

https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1546629375390466048?t=8pUK17LGxSPkOjyjn5of6A&s=19

For Myles Turner though? I assume some picks would be involved.

Picks? Suns will be lucky to get 1 pick - Pacers should have enough capspace to sign him to a deal outright.

[nathan2331]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

You should not be able to stand 3 all-nba players on a team through FA.  If they could get their true market value, each would be a team’s franchise player.  Instead, LeBron gets paid the same as other max players of the same age like past max deals for Andrew Wiggins.  GS has added multiple max players during their run because of these caps.  KD would have been offered more like 50M as one of the best 3 players in the game when he joined GS.  They only could add him (without him making a dramatic sacrifice) because of the maximum salary.  
 

Max salaries are there to inflate the salaries of the middle class players and to allow for the stacking of super teams.  The first is an admirable goal from a socialist kind of philosophy but the latter is a blight on the game.  
 

Miami would have paid Wade big. 

Cleveland would have paid LeBron big.

Toronto would have paid Bosh big.

But they can’t so the players all get together without giving up anything consequential.  Let the big dogs eat and it will make the league much more competitive, imo, because talent will be more evenly distributed.

I think the answer is to create a new player exception that would give players more money than the max contract they're eligble for, with a fraction of the cap hit. Details would have to be hashed out, but if every team could only give the exception to one player at a time, it would effectively prevent superstars from teaming up, unless a player is willing to sacrifice and leave a lot of money on the table.

[Diesel]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

Max salaries are there to inflate the salaries of the middle class players and to allow for the stacking of super teams.  The first is an admirable goal from a socialist kind of philosophy but the latter is a blight on the game.  
 

Miami would have paid Wade big. 

Cleveland would have paid LeBron big.

Toronto would have paid Bosh big.

But they can’t so the players all get together without giving up anything consequential.  Let the big dogs eat and it will make the league much more competitive, imo, because talent will be more evenly distributed.

This is where I disagree wit you.   You can't say that Wade and Bosh took pay cuts to make Miami a super team and then say that Max Salaries support the creation of superteams. 

The max salary stops a team from paying a player their whole cap.

However, a max salary player on the roster LIMITS the amount of highly paid players you can have. 

The only way you can get a super team is 

a.  You draft one..  (OKC and GS.)

b.  Somebody takes a paycut (less than they could have made). 

c.  A well stocked team has enough capital to trade for or sign Max players to surround their max player (before he becomes a max player). 

 

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I think the answer is to create a new player exception that would give players more money than the max contract they're eligble for, with a fraction of the cap hit. Details would have to be hashed out, but if every team could only give the exception to one player at a time, it would effectively prevent superstars from teaming up, unless a player is willing to sacrifice and leave a lot of money on the table.

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the old school Bird rules?

I mean, it made sense that a team could go over the cap (without penalty) to resign their own FAs. 

The only issue is when a player who sign a 2 year deal with a team, get his Bird rights and then take Max pay.

 

[Diesel]

In thinking about it, you can redo the old way of doing bird rules with this one caveat....

Bird rules were not transferable.   i.e. a player would have to be with the team to get his bird rights for 2 whole years before he could be signed over the cap. 

Because if a player has shown 2 years of play with the same team, that's a level of Loyalty. 

With that.. drop the hard cap.. and make it soft again...  No Aprons... Just a cap... that's flexible with Bird rules. 

 

[marco102]

I'm not sure if he is retiring, but the Hawks need to being him in as a shooting consultant or coach asap. 

@NBASupes, @Sothron have you guys heard anything about new shooting coach since Jent left?

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Wouldn't that have the same effect as the old school Bird rules?

I mean, it made sense that a team could go over the cap (without penalty) to resign their own FAs. 

The only issue is when a player who sign a 2 year deal with a team, get his Bird rights and then take Max pay.

 

With what I'm imagining, you can't give two players the same exception. So you can attract one superstar with the exception, but if you already had a superstar on your team, he could leave to become another team's designated player. So for example, the Celtics would eventually have to lose one of Tatum or Brown because both players are good enough to be someone's designated player.

[SalvorMallow]

2 hours ago, Dean Walker said:

 

I'm having some cognitive dissonance. He's obviously just making sh*t up.

 

Quote

Andy and Sean were chatting at their hotel. Heat determined to exhaust all options to acquire Durant before pursuing anything else significant. Donovan Mitchell obviously looms as an option, though he hasn't requested trade and Jazz isn't shopping him.

 

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is where I disagree wit you.   You can't say that Wade and Bosh took pay cuts to make Miami a super team and then say that Max Salaries support the creation of superteams. 

 

You only say that if you ignore what I've written.  Again, leaving ~$2M per year on the table is not comparable to leaving $20M per year on the table.  The max salary is the only way these guys can form Voltron and hit the easy button without making major sacrifices to their salaries.  None of those guys took major cuts to their pay.  Not one.  They all took a contract that was very close to the max meaning what relative pittance they gave up was easily made up in ad revenue from the boosted profile they all enjoyed being on a super team that was expected to win rings every season.

If you don't see the difference between taking $110M over 6 years when you could have had $125M and taking $110M over 6 years when you could have had $217M then I don't know what to tell you.  In a market without maximum salary restrictions, someone is paying LeBron on the order of $30-40M per year (~60-65% of the cap) and is happy to do it.  Rashard Lewis was already getting paid $19.6M in 2010-11 and if you think he was worth 50% of what LeBron was then we'll have to agree to disagree.  There is a scarcity of elite talent in the league and teams would pay through the nose for those elite talents if they could.  It is the fact that they can't that allows for super teams.

[Spud2nique]

38 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm not sure if he is retiring, but the Hawks need to being him in as a shooting consultant or coach asap. 

@NBASupes, @Sothron have you guys heard anything about new shooting coach since Jent left?

Good god yes! He prolly has suitors from here to …well somewhere far I just can’t think of a geographical location near all us since we everywhere  

Chip for President!

[AtLaS]

Why are we not going after Ayton?  They are about to let him sign an offer sheet and go for nothing or trade him for Miles Turner?  Capela/filler wouldn't be a better package?  

Ayton would create SO much additional spacing for us, and he removes our lone bad FT shooter.  That's a huge liability late in games with Capela.  Teams hack him when he gets anywhere close to the basket.  

Ayton is younger, MUCH better finisher, can shoot FTs and midrange.  Capela is a slightly better defender.  With Ayton can then run PNR with both Collins and Ayton, and we know Collins is an elite PNR roller.  We would be impossible to defend.  

This is one of those rare scenarios where you can get a potential young all-star on the cheap that fits the age of this team.

I don't get it.

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

Why are we not going after Ayton? 

Staying below the luxury tax

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

With what I'm imagining, you can't give two players the same exception. So you can attract one superstar with the exception, but if you already had a superstar on your team, he could leave to become another team's designated player. So for example, the Celtics would eventually have to lose one of Tatum or Brown because both players are good enough to be someone's designated player.

I don't like that mode of thinking because it punishes the Celtics for Good planning/Scouting.

I would rather let you gather how many players that you can with the caveat that they must be with you for two years before they can have bird rules.   I would still have salary maximum and cap maximums but the cap would be softer because of the Bird players.   If a Bird player puts you over the cap, then you can't go out and get another player unless they are willing to sign the MLE or the Vet Min. 

I didn't see much wrong with that.  With a two year wait, a FA would definitely have to think of his future vs his ring chase.   I would suggest that you would get less superteams that way because waiting two years with no guarantee that you will get a Max contract from the team is a risky proposition. 

[Sothron]

Update but you aren't going to like it:

My sources say the Hawks can't get Ayton to agree to a less than max salary. Also, Trae told them not to trade Capela for Ayton and to keep Capela. The team avoids paying Ayton and pissing off Trae...and potentially avoids the luxury tax. Remember, the tax isn't collected until the end of the season so the Hawks could send either of the two bums we got from the Kings to avoid the tax.

So its basically a huge loss IMO to the Hawks to not get Ayton but it makes Trae happy and it avoids paying Ayton and the luxury tax. 

Until the Hawks actually pay the luxury tax I will never believe Ressler will actually do it. And if you aren't paying the LT you are NOT and never will be a serious title contender.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

You only say that if you ignore what I've written.  Again, leaving ~$2M per year on the table is not comparable to leaving $20M per year on the table.  The max salary is the only way these guys can form Voltron and hit the easy button without making major sacrifices to their salaries.  None of those guys took major cuts to their pay.  Not one.  They all took a contract that was very close to the max meaning what relative pittance they gave up was easily made up in ad revenue from the boosted profile they all enjoyed being on a super team that was expected to win rings every season.

If you don't see the difference between taking $110M over 6 years when you could have had $125M and taking $110M over 6 years when you could have had $217M then I don't know what to tell you.  In a market without maximum salary restrictions, someone is paying LeBron on the order of $30-40M per year (~60-65% of the cap) and is happy to do it.  Rashard Lewis was already getting paid $19.6M in 2010-11 and if you think he was worth 50% of what LeBron was then we'll have to agree to disagree.  There is a scarcity of elite talent in the league and teams would pay through the nose for those elite talents if they could.  It is the fact that they can't that allows for super teams.

It's not monopoly money.  15 Million is still Money left on the table.  Not a pittance.  The point is that they still sacrificed in order to form Voltron.  When you look at Bron, AD, and Westbrook in LA.. There's no sacrifice.   And LAL is in a place where they cannot bring in one player of value.   If they bring in somebody that is of value, that player is going to have to sacrifice.   I don't see it happening. 

 

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Update but you aren't going to like it:

My sources say the Hawks can't get Ayton to agree to a less than max salary. Also, Trae told them not to trade Capela for Ayton and to keep Capela. The team avoids paying Ayton and pissing off Trae...and potentially avoids the luxury tax. Remember, the tax isn't collected until the end of the season so the Hawks could send either of the two bums we got from the Kings to avoid the tax.

So its basically a huge loss IMO to the Hawks to not get Ayton but it makes Trae happy and it avoids paying Ayton and the luxury tax. 

Until the Hawks actually pay the luxury tax I will never believe Ressler will actually do it. And if you aren't paying the LT you are NOT and never will be a serious title contender.

There is a world where avoiding Ayton, and the associated costs (money and players), could be better for us in the long run.  So I'm not super mad about it.

We made a significant deal already.  What we need is health and for Johnson to contribute and Griffin to give us ..... something.

And to go back in time and trade Cooper while he still had value.  Whaaaat?  Did I say that out loud?