Is there a hard reality Check Coming???

[Diesel]

Listening to a podcast today...

A "basketball expert" laid out how Dejounte Murray is Overrated. In essence he said that last year was a fluke... and that Murray cannot fill the "Kevin Huerter" role and how our offense will suffer because we no longer have Huerter. 

 

Question...

Is there a harsh reality check coming?

[Peoriabird]

30 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Listening to a podcast today...

A "basketball expert" laid out how Dejounte Murray is Overrated. In essence he said that last year was a fluke... and that Murray cannot fill the "Kevin Huerter" role and how our offense will suffer because we no longer have Huerter. 

 

Question...

Is there a harsh reality check coming?

Hmmm.  Huerter isn't even in the same universe as Murray in any category except 3 point shooting and even with that, most of Hueter's 3 pointers were catch and shoot vs Murray's pull ups

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Hmmm.  Huerter isn't even in the same universe as Murray in any category except 3 point shooting and even with that, most of Hueter's 3 pointers were catch and shoot vs Murray's pull ups

The point that was being made is that Murray's allstar rise came because he was all San Antonio had.  They talked about his Ecology is going to change.  i.e. he's going to be playing with a better class of player and he can't hog the ball.   The brit sounding guy said that before last year, Murray was run of the mill.   So playing with Trae will turn him back to run of the mill... i.e. lesser than Huerter...

 

[HawkingAwesome]

i think hawks fast break feasts

[Final_quest]

Murray was on the All Defense team in 2018.  He averaged about 5.7 rebounds as a guard while only getting 21 minutes per game.  That is what he did in his "average" NBA player seasons. 

Then the man nearly averaged a triple double last season.  He's a much different player from Huerter, but Huerter had to play with the starters partially because his bench numbers were so bad.  Murray puts up all star numbers as a starter.  Huerter needed to play with Trae to be effective.  This isn't even a comparison.  

[AHF]

The suggestion that Huerter was a stronger play than DM is silly.  As a baseline, DM is a dramatically better defender on a team where more of a defensive presence in our backcourt was key.  As a playmaker, DM is clearly much better as well.  His assist numbers will fall because he won’t be running the show full time here but that playmaking will still be very valuable and if Trae can actually play off the ball some that could be really effective.  He is lethal on catch and shoot shots.

 It is scoring where there could be some inflation by volume going on for DM.  He has never been a particularly efficient scorer.  So I think a worst case scenario for him would see him as fairly average as a scorer but recognize that is all Huerter was so even there I think that is not a bad thing because Bogi gives you everything that Huerter does (but better career to date) so having some different skills with DM and the ability to get to the line rather than spot up jumpers gives Nate more looks he can put on the floor.

In short, I think the worst case scenario (non-injury) is still a big upgrade for our team because I’d much rather have a 14 ppg, .535% ts%, 5.5 rpg, and 4.5 apg guard giving us an elite defender and gamer over Huerter.

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

A "basketball expert" laid out how Dejounte Murray is Overrated.

Was it Supes? 

[Spud2nique]

No. 
 

Also, you can’t and shouldn’t really try and compare the two. Kev doesn’t nearly have the skillset and athleticism to even get close to what Dejounte brings.

I loved Kev but no.

We will be fine, that podcaster may not last.

[JayBirdHawk]

Maybe being the man and putting up great numbers made him an allstar.  I don't think he'll have the same Allstar numbers but he played with a guy like DeRozan the year prior had still had better raw numbers than Huerter except 3 point shooting.

Here's a quick snapshot of Murray's season with DeRozan vs Huerter's last season.  Murray played in 7 less games than Huerter.

Per Game

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Kevin Huerter	2021-22	23	74	60	29.6	4.7	10.3	.454	2.2	5.6	.389	2.5	4.7	.530	.559	0.6	0.7	.808	0.4	3.0	3.4	2.7	0.7	0.4	1.2	2.5	12.1
2	Dejounte Murray	2020-21	24	67	67	31.9	6.6	14.5	.453	0.9	3.0	.317	5.6	11.6	.488	.485	1.6	2.0	.791	0.9	6.2	7.1	5.4	1.5	0.1	1.7	2.0	15.7

Totals

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Kevin Huerter	2021-22	23	74	60	2188	345	760	.454	160	411	.389	185	349	.530	.559	42	52	.808	32	222	254	203	55	26	91	185	892
2	Dejounte Murray	2020-21	24	67	67	2139	441	974	.453	63	199	.317	378	775	.488	.485	106	134	.791	58	415	473	363	101	7	117	135	1051

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Kevin Huerter	2021-22	23	74	60	2188	5.7	12.5	.454	2.6	6.8	.389	3.0	5.7	.530	0.7	0.9	.808	0.5	3.7	4.2	3.3	0.9	0.4	1.5	3.0	14.7
2	Dejounte Murray	2020-21	24	67	67	2139	7.4	16.4	.453	1.1	3.3	.317	6.4	13.0	.488	1.8	2.3	.791	1.0	7.0	8.0	6.1	1.7	0.1	2.0	2.3	17.7

 

With Murray, what we have is not a dependence on shooting the 3 from the SG position - he shoots it less from that distance which in turn is balanced by his ability to get in the paint and to the free throw line. 

What I would expect from Murry on offense (his defense is expected) is to be more efficient across the board since he is playing with better players. 

Murray brings a much-needed skillset that we didn't have on this team.

[Gray Mule]

Reality check coming.  You bet!  Harsh?  Nope.  I can't believe that this is happening.  To those of us who are dreaming that, as of now, the Hawks are perfect, be at once undeceived.  We are not.  Will we be improved over last season?  Yes.  I believe.  A lot of our success or lack thereof revolves around all our new Hawks.  We have several.  They must do well for the Atlanta Hawks to do well.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Gray Mule

[swanlee]

His stats will probably go down but he is exactly the type of player we needed to push our team over the edge and he will be a huge asset.

[ShooterSays]

Was this "expert" from NY?

[Final_quest]

My hope is that the NBA and the pundit class are the ones in for a reality check.  Trae Young's stock is too low right now.  What we're adding is being dismissed.

The story line will be as ridiculous as Dejounte Murray is teaching Trae how to be a winner and he's no longer a soft stat chaser.    

[macdaddy]

I think Murray is a big upgrade also.  The Huerter we saw last year is not a starting calibre 2 guard on an elite team.   Not unless we have an elite 3.  

I do think we don't have enough 3 point shooting anymore.  Last year we were 2nd in the league in % but middle of the pack in attempts.  If our % dips then points from 3s is going to be bad.   Hopefully it doesn't matter. 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I do think we don't have enough 3 point shooting anymore.  Last year we were 2nd in the league in % but middle of the pack in attempts.  If our % dips then points from 3s is going to be bad.   Hopefully it doesn't matter. 

I guess the questions are how are we to offset Gallo and Huerter's 3pt shooting:

1. Can JJ and/or Frank K pick up some of the Gallo slack

2. More quality attempts/looks for Hunter and Collins

3. With Murray on board, will Trae have more CnS opportunities instead of pull up 3s.

4. Holiday will need to improve is 3pt percentages 34% as opposed to Huerter's 38% on similar attempts

[Plainview1981]

10 hours ago, Diesel said:

The point that was being made is that Murray's allstar rise came because he was all San Antonio had.  They talked about his Ecology is going to change.  i.e. he's going to be playing with a better class of player and he can't hog the ball.   The brit sounding guy said that before last year, Murray was run of the mill.   So playing with Trae will turn him back to run of the mill... i.e. lesser than Huerter...

 

I think it partly depends on if he can become a better shooter. If you play with Trae and you have so alpha mentally and can shoot... You will have chances.

You take Collins... Who has complained about his role on offense. He might think that he doesn't get enough touches, but the truth is that he doesn't have a killer mentality. He doesn't want to blame himself for that, and so he complains that he doesn't get feed enough.

Murray is a good slasher.... If you have his slashing ability, his scoring mentality and you pair that with 37% shooting... You will score.

Collins nor KH have that killer personality. Murray has enough of it to be really good. This backcourt can somewhat resemble what Portland had a few years back.

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I guess the questions are how are we to offset Gallo and Huerter's 3pt shooting:

1. Can JJ and/or Frank K pick up some of the Gallo slack

2. More quality attempts/looks for Hunter and Collins

3. With Murray on board, will Trae have more CnS opportunities instead of pull up 3s.

4. Holiday will need to improve is 3pt percentages 34% as opposed to Huerter's 38% on similar attempts

My concern with Holiday is that he hasn't really played on a good team kind of ever.   He's only really played in 4 playoff games in his career and he's 33. 

With Frank I'm not sure.  I don't know his game at all but it'll be interesting to see if he ends up being the new Dieng and not really in the rotation.  

So it all comes back to Hunter, Bogi, JC being available and kicking it up a notch. 

[Spud2nique]

34 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The Huerter we saw last year is not a starting calibre 2 guard on an elite team.   Not unless we have an elite 3.

Even then, Huerter isn’t a starter. 

16 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

I think it partly depends on if he can become a better shooter. If you play with Trae and you have so alpha mentally and can shoot... You will have chances.

You take Collins... Who has complained about his role on offense. He might think that he doesn't get enough touches, but the truth is that he doesn't have a killer mentality. He doesn't want to blame himself for that, and so he complains that he doesn't get feed enough.

Murray is a good slasher.... If you have his slashing ability, his scoring mentality and you pair that with 37% shooting... You will score.

Collins nor KH have that killer personality. Murray has enough of it to be really good. This backcourt can somewhat resemble what Portland had a few years back.

Who is this? 

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I don't know his game at all

If it still resembles what he was when he was younger then I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with him. He knows what he can and can’t do and stays in those lanes.

He is good at catching cutters to going to the hoop with brilliant passing skills for a big, he can can the open jumper if left alone with doesn’t shoot as well when pressured due to a slower and more methodical release.

I liked Dieng, and I like Frank. Both team guys to me. 

[JayBirdHawk]

17 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

My concern with Holiday is that he hasn't really played on a good team kind of ever.   He's only really played in 4 playoff games in his career and he's 33. 

With Frank I'm not sure.  I don't know his game at all but it'll be interesting to see if he ends up being the new Dieng and not really in the rotation.  

So it all comes back to Hunter, Bogi, JC being available and kicking it up a notch. 

I'm hoping JJ can be the backup 4, he may not shoot the 3 like Gallo but maybe his varying skillset being more athletic and playing above the rim offsets the 3pt volume from Gallo.