Quin Snyder - Additions/now CHANGES to the Coaching Staff

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Let's look and see how many of them end up as head coaches and then the facts will deliver the final verdict.  

Not true. That's an answer to a question, just not the fundamental question here (see above post).

But even if it were and we accept your modification of the question, damn, all these assistants Angel Quin just brought in... given all his years in Utah, why haven't any of them already become highly regarded head coaches?

 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

(Also have to note that I find your objection very strange given that you articulated your view recently that this really is no objective way for fans to evaluate assistant coaches.  So if all we have are opinions why is sharing that opinion wrong?

 

Why "strange?"

I have a general problem with people mouthing off with abrasive negative mean opinions toward a person when those people objectively have zero basis for that specific conclusion.

Sharing an opinion that is that? Not okay.

 

  

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Many posters here were very unimpressed with his staff

Until they were. You left that part out. And you know this. Some of the very same people you're speaking of... once Demon Nate was taken out of the equation... voiced great support for Quin KEEPING them.

 

 

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

This isn't that complex and it isn't an indictment of him as a person.  He is hardly the first or last coach to hire a staff that lacks high end talent whether you measure that through the impression of fans or the subsequent career paths of those gentlemen.)

I'm flabbergasted. Where to start.

No. Yes, it's an indictment of me as a person if you're going to tell me I hired subpar people because my fear of losing my job to a subordinate was greater than my desire to have the highest quality coaching staff the club's GM was willing to pay for, and with that, my desire to win. That is absolutely an indictment of my character. I don't say this often of an AHF comment, but that's a ridiculous take.

No, we don't know that his staff lacked high end talent. We have no way to measure that. What conclusions have been put forward are intellectually baseless. (And again again again... to some degree if not entirely, those were group hiring decisions, not Demon Nate's alone. If we could possibly measure it, we still wouldn't know how much credit or criticism any one person in that group deserves.)

No, that question won't be addressed by the subsequent career paths of those gentlemen. Not every excellent assistant coach ends up being a head coach. There's 30 HC jobs. The math just won't let every excellent assistant coach become a head coach. People hire people they know. Often, they hire former head coaches. Right, Troy Weaver? If we accept your premise, Tex Winter was never all that great. And you know I only cite him because he's the easiest one to call to memory.

C'mon AHF. This is specious stuff... craters in the logic... you're posting. Why is it so important to you to support the continued beating of the pinata?... a dead horse, as it were.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

I'm flabbergasted. Where to start.

No. Yes, it's an indictment of me as a person if you're going to tell me I hired subpar people because my fear of losing my job to a subordinate was greater than my desire to have the highest quality coaching staff the club's GM was willing to pay for, and with that, my desire to win. That is absolutely an indictment of my character. I don't say this often of an AHF comment, but that's a ridiculous take.

No, we don't know that his staff lacked high end talent. We have no way to measure that. What conclusions have been put forward are intellectually baseless. (And again again again... to some degree if not entirely, those were group hiring decisions, not Demon Nate's alone. If we could possibly measure it, we still wouldn't know how much credit or criticism any one person in that group deserves.)

No, that question won't be addressed by the subsequent career paths of those gentlemen. Not every excellent assistant coach ends up being a head coach. There's 30 HC jobs. The math just won't let every excellent assistant coach become a head coach. People hire people they know. Often, they hire former head coaches. Right, Troy Weaver? If we accept your premise, Tex Winter was never all that great. And you know I only cite him because he's the easiest one to call to memory.

C'mon AHF. This is specious stuff... craters in the logic... you're posting. Why is it so important to you to support the continued beating of the pinata?... a dead horse, as it were.

I don't think there have been many people who wanted to keep Nate's staff once Quin was hired.  I certainly didn't. 

I think Nate did a good job in a number of areas and "needed improvement" in a number of areas.  I think his scheme and strategies on offense were one of those areas.  I am pretty sure I posted multiple times about my dissatisfaction with the assistant coaches and a need for Nate to get an elite offensive assistant who could improve that side of the team and that didn't happen so that was a disappointment to me.  I believe there were also a number of threads that had discussion focusing on key assistants.  For example, there was discussion around how Mike Longabardi was hired to be our lead defensive coach when he oversaw some of the worst defenses in the entire league in recent years (example:  2017-18 CLE #29; 2018-19 CLE #30; 2019-20 WAS #30; 2021-22 SAC #27) and whether it was a good idea to make him the lead assistant for defense.

I disagree with you on the quality of our assistant and the logic I've posted which I think is pretty simple.  People were unhappy with our assistants while Nate was still here.  Why would you expect them to sing their praises when Nate is gone?

[JayBirdHawk]

20 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

A big part of being a good coach is having a good staff. It's hard to argue that Nate brought the best and the brightest with him to ATL. Not sure why you're so offended by that.

The player development was lackluster at best, borderline nonexistent at worst... a function generally led by the assistant coaches.

Trae had public disputes with Nate's nepotism hire.

Nate could and should have done better.

To Koonin's point below regarding development.....and to Nates's own words  saying he was 'done with development' (or something like that)  since we were trying to win.

On 4/22/2023 at 7:15 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Steve Koonin's radio interview from earlier today, talks about playoffs, Trae latest trade rumor (LAL - he had a good chuckle at that), Quin and other things.

Highlights on Quin:
[  ] Headcoach needs to be head of basketball, he sets the cultural tone, involved in player choices working with LF and KK, but he is the one that connects and communicates wwiththe players
[  ] Accelerated schedule after ECF - player development stopped (thanks Nate), but will come back going forward
[  ] Quin coaches with such life, emotion: connecting and teaching. Player feedback is really strong. When he as all his tools we will see continued improvement,  better fundamental basketball going forward.
[  ] LP was brought in for player development, NM was brought in to connect with players. Quin is doing both.

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/dukes-bell-0fcb8/episodes/hawks-ceo-steve-koonin-live-at-state-farm-arena-8d522

Worth the full listen about 15 minutes.

 

[sturt]

37 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't think there have been many people who wanted to keep Nate's staff once Quin was hired. 

 

 

 

 

 

[sturt]

55 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

To Koonin's point below regarding development.....and to Nates's own words  saying he was 'done with development' (or something like that)  since we were trying to win.

Nate.

Nate said that (... whatever it was, and though I think that's a slightly-out-of-context quote, I'm not arguing that he didn't have that attitude regardless, b/c I also voiced my displeasure).

Nate did.

You get the difference in what Salvor said ("The player development was lackluster at best, borderline nonexistent at worst... a function generally led by the assistant coaches") and the substance of your reply, right???

Let me be clear.

If Phil Jackson says something like "I'm done with development," that's neither here nor there about Tex Winter or any of his other assistant coaches. It has no  logical reflection on the quality of their work... their value  as assistants.  None. Only on the lead dog who has made the decision what he wants to give focus.

 

 

 

 

[SalvorMallow]

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

I think I've done a darn good job explaining why I'm offended. Haven't I?

1. First, it's not clear that Nate did anything different from what Quin has just done... okay?

This is a straw man. Can you point me to where I stated Quin has the best slate of assistants? I simply said Nate didn't.

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

2. Second, it's somewhat clear that Nate was a voice at the table, but was not the only one at the assistant coaching hiring table... okay?

Such is life. NBA head coaches get blamed for circumstances outside of their control all the time. Just look at Coach Bud getting fired after his brother died in the middle of a critical series. If you want to make the big bucks (pun intended), you have a huge responsibility on your shoulders to bear the criticism for everything that happens around you. This is why it's super important that you vet the organization you join just as they vet you. 

I could argue that Nate failed by taking a job where he didn't have sufficient control over his own asst coaching hires (I find this really hard to believe considering he brought in his underqualified son to be an assistant)

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

3. Third, the actual offending statement suggested that Nate deliberately hired lesser coaches because he was one to act out of fear... but that's not the Nate I ever saw... that sounds more like a baseless criticism rooted in a general animosity that shows up almost without fail anytime his name appears on this board these days... okay?

I personally don't care about Nate's motivation for bringing in a third-rate coaching staff.

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

4. Fourth, who's really kidding whom... Chris Jent < Igor Kokoskov?... huh? And moreover, since when did the previously popular undefeated Joe Prunty get so unpopular?

For whatever reason, Nate didn't have the "pull" to keep Chris Jent on his staff. Maybe Jent didn't see a need to stay when Nate was telling our players that they should forego shooting the three to take it into the midrange or "attack the mismatch". I bet that would grind a master shooting coach's gears

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

5. Even if we assume all the hiring was Demon Nate's, and Travis was just signing off on Nate's decisions... there is wisdom in hiring people who you have reason to believe are going to buy-in to your way of doing things instead of resisting your decisions/leadership... just ask Quin, since he just demonstrated that point... okay?

You must love how Tony Ressler instilled his son with power in the front office then, just like Nate did on the coaching staff. Good to know. Surrounding oneself by "yes men" is a clear sign of a weak leader.

 

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

I said a little more, but this captures enough to debunk the original assertion.

 

How do you know that?

What mics and cameras did you have planted in practices to even formulate any opinion whatsoever?

Presumptuous. The contempt for Demon Nate is ridiculous.

Nate did his best. It wasn't good enough. A change needed to be made. But to imply that you question whether the man actually wanted to win is over the top.

Oh by the way... this is a new line of criticism. Previously, there had even been some who had openly hoped to see Quin keep one, some, or otherwise everyone on the 22-23 staff w/o McMillan for a last name.

But now that that's by the wayside, heck, let's get that pinata rehung on the tree branch for a little more bashing, please.

LOL who were these mysterious individuals? Every thread I read talked about how Demon Nate hired a scratch-n-dent staff to keep himself employed. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I hardly saw people defending his staff on the merits.

 

EDIT: Yikes I just saw you found a few posts about Prunty. I vehemently disagree with those takes, but to each their own.

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, sturt said:

 

Educate me. First time I've ever read that that was a point of contention. Previously, it was all about Nate's... Nate's... adherence to his long-held coaching routines.

(Not sure it even matters, either way, but I say that sincerely... educate me. What, as-if we should regard it as compelling if Trae calls out one of Quin's favorites a year from now???)

 

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/trae-young-argues-with-jamelle-mcmillan-during-play-in-game

 

 

[sturt]

14 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

I think I've done a darn good job explaining why I'm offended. Haven't I?

1. First, it's not clear that Nate did anything different from what Quin has just done... okay?

This is a straw man. Can you point me to where I stated Quin has the best slate of assistants? I simply said Nate didn't.

Was all set to give you a pass on this, my friend. Sincerely don't know how many times I came to a conversation midstream, and missed out on some premise.

But, nah. You don't get a pass. You documented your understanding since you stamped your approval on the original post that compelled the conversation in the first place.

So. No. Not a straw man. It's a pivotal assertion of that original post.

 

 

[sturt]

14 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

2. Second, it's somewhat clear that Nate was a voice at the table, but was not the only one at the assistant coaching hiring table... okay?

Such is life. NBA head coaches get blamed for circumstances outside of their control all the time.

 

A lot like saying, famous men grabbing women by the crotch is something "fortunately or unfortunately" that's been done for millennia. (Thank you exPOTUS.)

We're discussing what's accurate. We're discussing what's right. We're not discussing history. That's what's called a red herring response.

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

3. Third, the actual offending statement suggested that Nate deliberately hired lesser coaches because he was one to act out of fear... but that's not the Nate I ever saw... that sounds more like a baseless criticism rooted in a general animosity that shows up almost without fail anytime his name appears on this board these days... okay?

I personally don't care about Nate's motivation for bringing in a third-rate coaching staff.

 

 

Well, first... again... see the post that began the discussion.

And second... I don't make the rules. I just know what they are, and I don't pretend they don't exist. One of those, juries (logically) want to understand when they convict someone "what was his/her motivation for the bad behavior"... and why do they do that... of course, it's because it's more difficult to vote "guilty" if you can't really see any reason this person would have done what they're accused of doing.

Third... that response, fwiw, is one I call "dancing." It's when a person excuses themselves from having to agree... it's like when I got my speeding ticket in small town Texas the other day... I could choose to contend I'm not guilty, or I could plead "no contest," and just agree that they had a good case that probably would win.

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

4. Fourth, who's really kidding whom... Chris Jent < Igor Kokoskov?... huh? And moreover, since when did the previously popular undefeated Joe Prunty get so unpopular?

For whatever reason, Nate didn't have the "pull" to keep Chris Jent on his staff. Maybe Jent didn't see a need to stay when Nate was telling our players that they should forego shooting the three to take it into the midrange or "attack the mismatch". I bet that would grind a master shooting coach's gears

Agreed. He did not have the pull of LBJ. Neither did he have the pull of Jent's old friend, Darvin. Demon Nate, failed to form that friendship early enough to "out-pull" those guys.

Or, maybe your theory--ie, that neither had the pull, but Jent just wanted out that bad--is correct.

Which leads us to one difference between you and me in this discussion... I'm content to say I really don't know b/c I really can't. One of those may be true. Both of those may be true. And neither may be true. Free country, you have a right to your guess, but educated country, you have a responsibility to acknowledge not only what you know, but what you don't know.

 

That said. That's not even what that response was about.

See original post. Again.

[sturt]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

5. Even if we assume all the hiring was Demon Nate's, and Travis was just signing off on Nate's decisions... there is wisdom in hiring people who you have reason to believe are going to buy-in to your way of doing things instead of resisting your decisions/leadership... just ask Quin, since he just demonstrated that point... okay?

You must love how Tony Ressler instilled his son with power in the front office then, just like Nate did on the coaching staff. Good to know. Surrounding oneself by "yes men" is a clear sign of a weak leader.

Confused.

The conventional conclusion has been that Ressler Senior installed Ressler Junior to monitor the President of Basketball Operations. Ressler Senior would admit to Schultz and The Athletic that he was displeased by the degree to which the PBO was ignoring the input of his staff.

So, no. That actually was all about Ressler's desire to see a more democratic front office. Now, you aren't totally wrong... if you agree with me, you believe that action  was (and is) all about raising the likelihood of such differences in thinking that ultimately, the PBO would come knocking at his door so he could weigh-in... and have his way without actually having to technically be guilty of intervening... it's not intervening if they come ask me, Tony would say.

 

But to your point.

No, surrounding yourself with a team that all agree on some fundamental philosophies so that you're not always having to do battle over big theoretical premises, and instead, can dive into more of the applied conversations... that's smart leadership if/when your top dog is actually old and experienced enough to have some wide comprehension of the landscape. His conclusions have been forged over years of observation. It's not that he's always right, but he's more likely right than someone without the benefit of all that experience.

When your top dog is not that, though... you're right... that's when you need someone who is looking to be challenged, at least to a larger degree. Lloyd Pierce needed that. I remember a young Billy Donovan in his first D1 coaching job at my alma mater... he was one of if not the first I recall who would pull his staff away from the bench and go have these spirited debates during timeouts... Billy didn't have yes men, and that was smart. Today, Billy doesn't need yes men. Billy has a really good rationale by now for the coaching convictions he holds.

 

And tying a bow... I want to come back to where you started that...

I was upset with Ressler Senior. I thought the PBO had earned the right by then to run the front office the way the PBO perceived best. (I still believe that.)

I am not as concerned now, with the NBA's youngest GM in the top seat... there should, indeed, be a more democratic operation there, in my opinion. He doesn't get the benefit of a doubt for a few, if not several, years, and some resume that shows some participation in some team's success (... as Travis' resume did).

[sturt]

1 hour ago, SalvorMallow said:

On 5/31/2023 at 6:21 PM, sturt said:

 

Educate me. First time I've ever read that that was a point of contention. Previously, it was all about Nate's... Nate's... adherence to his long-held coaching routines.

(Not sure it even matters, either way, but I say that sincerely... educate me. What, as-if we should regard it as compelling if Trae calls out one of Quin's favorites a year from now???)

 

Expand  

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/trae-young-argues-with-jamelle-mcmillan-during-play-in-game

Forgive me. I misread your assertion as-if Trae specifically had been angry with Nate for hiring his kid. What I'm understanding instead is not that specific, but just that Trae had been angry with his kid (aka, a "nepotism hire" which is irrefutably accurate).

I still say. I won't care if Trae calls out one of Quin's perceived favorites. I hope he doesn't. But I also think we've learned to expect the possibility, and that goes for anyone who Trae feels isn't respecting him sufficiently.

[AHF]

20 hours ago, sturt said:

 

 

 

 

 

Are you making the claim that people who liked that a post wanted to keep Nate's staff?  I think that is overreaching.  For example, someone who liked Sothron's post may have agreed with any or all of:

• Wanting to keep Prunty
• Quin having the right to get rid of everyone and bring in his own staff
• Wishing good luck to the old coaches for their hard work

I would bet I can find posts by those who liked those posts who are expressing their joy at changes to and the potential to upgrade Nate's staff.

My point wasn't that no one wanted to keep a single member of the staff.  It was that there wasn't a big groundswell of support for keeping Nate's staff intact.  I still think that is the case and that most people who wanted to keep any part of Nate's staff wanted to see a limited retention.

[sturt]

Seeing today that Utah's G-League team has named a new head coach, reminds me that our own G-League team might also be turning the page from Steve Gansey, who previously to that gig, had been the G-League HC for the Pacers' affiliate (... and thus, likely hired b/c of his Demon Nate connection).

If we accept that that's likely to be the paradigm for CP going forward, then say goodbye to Gansey, and hello to Nathan Peavy... the SLC Stars HC before Quin exited, and previously the assistant there to Martin Schiller who now has a HC job in Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Peavy

Per the link, right now, Peavy coaches for a team in Puerto Rico, but I'd imagine a G-League salary would be a step up from that (?).

[kg01]

Hawks make histori...

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2023/6/5/23750021/report-hawks-bring-aboard-brittni-donaldson-to-coaching-staff-historic-hire-news-analytics-assistant

... first female coaching hire in franchise history.

Sounds like she'll be focused on analytics so, for that reason, she's now my least favorite coach. 

Too bad @JayBirdHawk got the hook.  Otherwise I'm sure she wouldn't let that slide.  Oh well, do the crime, do the time.  

[sturt]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Hawks make histori...

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2023/6/5/23750021/report-hawks-bring-aboard-brittni-donaldson-to-coaching-staff-historic-hire-news-analytics-assistant

... first female coaching hire in franchise history.

Sounds like she'll be focused on analytics so, for that reason, she's now my least favorite coach. 

Too bad @JayBirdHawk got the hook.  Otherwise I'm sure she wouldn't let that slide.  Oh well, do the crime, do the time.  

Never heard of her. But I'm sure she's yet another example of how Angel Quin only hires future NBA head coaches.

 

[KB21]

Another fantastic hire by Quin Snyder!   

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[KB21]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

Hmm.  I'm curious as to what sort of connections he has to the French prospects in this draft (Coulilby, Rupert, Cissoko).