Diesel, you've convinced me.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

and while I don't agree with his assessment of the eventual outcome. I also share those concerns. using it as an opportunity to attack someones opinion simply because it is not in line with your own, while not taking the time to really look at the validity of what he's saying, is you being just as shortsighted as you accuse him of being.

---

I think the reason Diesel is sometimes attacked is that he bashes and ridicules other peoples opinions by saying things like don't believe the hype and you are all fools to believe the hype machine. Then in almost the same breath turns around and declares two college draftees better than a future hall of famer before they even set foot on a NBA court.

It just blows my mind that he thinks calling Marvin a potential super star and future all-star is more hype than his claims for those two two kids (get the pun) .

Then he says other things like don't blow it and just draft a big man (when he was Bogut bashing) just because you need one but then turns a complete about face with wanting to draft any point guard who can dribble and walk at the same time just because we need one.

He just reminds me of the old man sometimes who goes around saying, don't do as I do, do as I say. What's worse though, is he does not even realize he is doing exactly what he is bashing us for doing. That is pretty much all I have to say on this. Just rubs me the wrong way sometimes.

[Diesel]

The reason I do that and am right is because We know much more about Deron and Paul than Marvin. I have seen Deron/Paul play under pressure against the best teams and step up. Marvin has not or atleast haven't stepped up.I can make a more informed decision with more information.Yet people here are quick to claim MWill better than guys like Paul/Deron... When we know nothing about MWill.. not really.

[Final_quest]

Quote:

---

The reason I do that and am right is because

---

Nobody is right at this point, give it at least 2-3 years before anyone is right.Diesel it seems like you place yourself above all of the scouts and professionals who get paid to analyze the players. Actually you did compare Marvin Williams to Tim Thomas, several times, and compared Bogut to other busts such as Mihm and Olowakandi. Just because Paul or Deron played more college ball, does not mean they won't become the next Bobby Hurley. Yet you are certain they are hall of famers. Interesting.

[swolehawk2]

I know plenty about him...you just don't listen.

[drzachary]

I am still firmly convinced that Deron will be the next Roko Ukic.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

When we know nothing about MWill.. not really.

---

Then why say you know he does not have the competitiveness to be a true winner when you know nothing about him and competitiveness is such a hard thing to guage in any young prospect.

[chillzatl]

I don't always agree with them. In fact, I would say I rarely do. But I'm the same way. That's probably why Diesel and I have had such heated arguments over the years. I take the time to learn things and put 2 and 2 together and come up with my own conclusion based on the info that's available. When I form an opinion on something that has no concrete facts associated with it, I'm going to believe it and defend it until something or someone proves it wrong or someone who obviously has more knowledge on the subject gives me info I didn't already have. It rubs people the wrong way sometimes. But it's also why I'm successful in what I do. I'll also own up to it and accept responsibility when I'm wrong. Though that's where we differ, Diesel doesn't always (ever?) own up to it when he's wrong

Oh and Bobby Hurley wasn't a bust. He could have easily been the next great PG. The car accident effectively ended his career.

[chillzatl]

of things I would consider "questionable competitiveness" to put it up for debate.

[AHF]

Hurley's career was definitely ended as a result of that accident but I don't think he would have been battling Jason Kidd or Gary Payton for a HOF spot.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

of things I would consider "questionable competitiveness" to put it up for debate.

---

It is one thing to say his competitivess is questionable. It is another to say you know he is no more competitive than Lamar Odom and admit in the next breath that you know nothing about him. That is like saying the moon is full based on what I've seen but then saying that no one can see the sky because it is so overcast.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

of things I would consider "questionable competitiveness" to put it up for debate.

---

What would that be, other than when he was a child??He was as competitive as anyone in each and every NCAA game. You could see the fire in his eyes, diving for loose balls etc... I understand that he is a quiet reserved guy off-court, but I don't see how he's shown a lack of competitive drive since playing in the big-time

[chillzatl]

and when you use the world "child" it makes one think he was 10 years old. He was a highschool kid. But regardless, it's still valid. You may think that the things you do as a kid have zero impact on who you become. But that's laughable. he doesn't watch the NBA. A guy who wants to go pro, wants to play among the best in the world. But he doesn't care to watch the game? even the finals? odd...Do we have any quotes of him ever saying anything like "I want to be considered one of the best ever"? We have such quotes from Lebron, AI, KG, Kobe, Bogut. Do we have anything like that from Marvin? again, i'm NOT saying he's going to be a bust or that he's NOT competitive. I'm just saying that there are exmaples that anyone who wants to be honest about it, can look and and realistically debate it.

[Diesel]

OH yeah I listened Swole...You said that you have played with Marvin on the playground and he has mad game.Hell, I have played against Ace Custis, James Forrest, D. Wallington, Steve Francis, Xray Hipp, Wayne Buckingham, Chad Dollar, Ivano Newbill, Walt Williams, and Keith Booth on the playground.. All of them should be pros from the playground perspective... The problem is that the playground is not the quality of competition that is found in the NBA. About Paul and Deron, they have played the best in College basketball and have shined most of the time. I can't find one game where Marvin has shined against quality competition. Grab Iowa State and put Marvin on the floor and he will look good... But what happens against Kentucky, Ga Tech, WFU, and Duke?

[swolehawk2]

See you didn't listen ...I never said I played with him I have seen the team play against one another...it was organized and not playground baskeball....my whole point in that thread was that he was giving it to May in the post...and was obviously the hardest worker and most talented player on that team.LISTEN.....Against GA TECH he scored 14 points on 7 shots in 23 minutes 6 rebounds and 2 steals2nd game he missed 3 shots and score 9 points. in 19 mintues 5 rebounds 1 stealAgainst WF...4-6 in 21 minutes 15 points 7 reboundsDuke game 1 he went 5-8 for 12 points in 25 minutes with 5 rebounds.....Duke game 2 3-9 9 points 7 rebounds in 26 minutesKentucky ....18 miuntes 5 points off 5 shots 4 rebounds in 18 minutesHe avg. 11 points for the year in 22 minutes.See basically he played the same way against the good schools and the so so schools....HE GOT ALMOST THE SAME NUMBER OF MINUTES AND SHOTS AGAINST EVERYBODY...LOOK AT HIS SCORING...IT IS NOT LIKE HE LIT THE BAD TEAMS UP FOR 40 THEN SCORED 12 AGAINST THE POOR TEAMS....HE COULDN'T SHINE BECAUSE ROY WOULD NOT GIVE HIM THE MINUTES YOU NEED TO "SHINE" ...REGARDLESS OF HOW HE WAS PLAYING.....HE HAS ALMOST NO PLAYS RAN FOR HIM...AS MCCANTS MAY FELTON AND JAWAD DOMINATED THE OFFENSE.....HE HAD TO GET HIS OWN SHOTS OFf PUT BACKS AND CREATIONWHAT MORE DID YOU WANT FROM HIM...HE WAS CONSISTENT AS HE COULD BE WITH THE AMOUNT OF MINUTES HE HAD.LISTEN!I am not sure of what type of player he will be....but your argument against him is really your imagination.I guess he should have said damn that coach put me back in and give me the rock ...Diesel says I have to shine!....LOL

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

and when you use the world "child" it makes one think he was 10 years old. He was a highschool kid. But regardless, it's still valid. You may think that the things you do as a kid have zero impact on who you become. But that's laughable.

---

To say that one action in one game when he was a kid will have an impact on his professional career is what is laughable. He showed that he was a nice guy, and that is reflected in the man he is today. There is no reason to believe that it will be reflected in his NBA play. Call me crazy, but I would think that his intensity and desire to win late in high school and in college are better indications

Quote:

---

he doesn't watch the NBA.

---

Not true. "Growing up I loved Kevin Garnett, I loved Gary Payton" says Marvin. He supposedly said he's never seen a playoff game, though I am inclined to believe it may have been taken out of context. Maybe he meant live."This whole experience is really a dream come true for me. Everybody wants to get up on that stage and shake Commissioner Stern's hand."

Quote:

---

Do we have any quotes of him ever saying anything like "I want to be considered one of the best ever"? We have such quotes from Lebron, AI, KG, Kobe, Bogut. Do we have anything like that from Marvin?

---

-"To be honest, it be will tough going from a national champion to a lottery team. ... No competitor likes to lose, whether it is one loss or a hundred losses. You try to win every time you go out there. It will be tough. "-"once you get running and playing, your adrenaline takes over"-"I am so tired of hearing people talking about how I might be too nice for the NBA and all that. That is how I am off the court. I am definitely a different guy on the court and I think a lot of people saw that last year."-responding to "what are you going to bring to the hawks this year?" : "hopefully excitement, but I want to win."Do we really have that many Paul or Deron quotes telling us they'll be the best PG's ever? Do we have any such quotes from the best player currently playing in Duncan? No, because it's just not his off-court attitude. He'll be a humble guy even if he wins 10 straight MVP's.

[swolehawk2]

"Not true. "Growing up I loved Kevin Garnett, I loved Gary Payton" says Marvin. He supposedly said he's never seen a playoff game, though I am inclined to believe it may have been taken out of context. Maybe he meant live. "RightI think he meant he had never seen an entire playoff game...like I have never seen a entire baseball game...I stop watch a little then flip around....anyway that was blown way out.

[drzachary]

Quote:

---

I guess he should have said damn that coach put me back in and give me the rock ...Diesel says I have to shine!....LOL

---

Yeah really, and forget the coach's system and the veterans who have learned that system!! The "if he was the best player, he would have started" crap doesn't fly for college teams and their (usually big-ego) coaches.

[Diesel]

Don't forget the being happy that the AAU coach pushed back practice so that he can watch Rugrats and the Spongebob Book bag...sofT...

[Lascar78]

OFFCOURT vs ON COURTNobody is arguing that he is a nice, soft guy off court. But he is tough as nails on the court.

[chillzatl]

I hadn't seen either of those, so in my mind, it puts to rest the only real concern I had about him. thanks for taking the time to find that stuff and post it.