mudderfudder77

As a Bulls fan let me tell you that it was heart breaking to see the Bulls shut out in FA year, after year, after year... But in the end I think I'm actually glad. It's good to see the guys who have actually grown up with the team become successful. As a fan it is that much more satisfying knowing that this player was drafted and developed in the city rather than bought and paid for. Just my opinion though. I wouldn't worry too much Hawks fans, looks like you got some real nice young talent there and it should only be a matter of a couple seasons before it really shines.

Edit:

And let me add that while I would be sad to see Curry go, I would in no way support Paxson matching a big time deal if and when the Hawks offer it. Now Chandler on the other hand...

You lose the chance to offer that same money to a player who might actually play for you. It's possible that 7 days from now that a player who might actually have played for you will sign elsewhere. It's always a risk when you offer a contract to a RFA.

Can't say that I blame him, he had been ordered to stop all workouts for over 6 weeks...

Curry canceled the visit after they requested him to go through physical & follow up with their doctors...

Not so fast my friend. You haven't signed anybody yet.

Free Agents not dsigning isn't always a bad thing. Yes the Bulls went through 7 years of hell, but look at the good young talent they got as a result of it. I think the Hawks are well on their way and can create a roster similar to what the Bulls have.

They can dare all they want, but I just don't see Paxson letting Chandler go. He is exactly the type of player Paxson and Skiles want on their team. I really think Paxson will match any offer for Chandler. Curry on the other hand - a big offer and I think the Bulls will let him walk...

I'd have to really think about that trade if I was Philly...

As a Bulls fan I'd hate to see him go - but at the same time I really hope they don't have to pay the max to get him. I'm always leery of a player who doesn't get into shape until his contract year, but he certainly has the skills to be an offensive force. It will be interesting to see if he really is interested in Atlanta, or whether he's just using them as leverage against the Bulls.

Considering he is a RFA, if the Hawks are serious about aquiring him, thats all they really can offer.

Redd and Allen head a deep free-agent class

Insider

Ford

By Chad Ford

Now that the season is over, next year has become this year for the 22 teams no longer in the playoffs.

Who will have the cap space to make a difference in this summer's free-agent market?

Assuming there's a $45 million cap (it could be as high as $50 million, depending on what happens with the CBA), the Atlanta Hawks will have roughly $24 million in cap room. The Cleveland Cavaliers and Seattle SuperSonics will have $21 million, the Charlotte Bobcats roughly $20 million. The Los Angeles Clippers and New Orleans Hornets will have about $11 million. The Milwaukee Bucks have cleared about $9 million. Will they really want or be able to use it? The Sonics likely will spend all of their room re-signing their own free agents. The Cavs will use roughly half of theirs in an attempt to re-up Zydrunas Ilgauskas. And the Bobcats likely will save much of their cap space for summer 2007.

That leaves the Hawks, Cavs (roughly $10 million to $12 million), Hornets, Clippers and Bobcats as the players in the free-agent market. Since only one of those teams, the Cavs, is in any position to compete for the playoffs (though the Clippers are getting close), the free-agent destinations for top veterans will be very limited.

This year's list of free agents isn't top-heavy, but it's deep. Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Antoine Walker and Ilgauskas top the list of unrestricted veterans. Of that group, Allen and Abdur-Rahim are the most likely to bolt for new teams.

The restricted free-agent class looks much better, but remember, going after restricted free agents in the summer is always a dicey proposition. Only two top restricted free agents changed teams last summer. The Nuggets stole Kenyon Martin from the New Jersey Nets (the Nets eventually agreed to a sign-and-trade) and the Phoenix Suns pried Quentin Richardson away from the Clippers.

Here's Insider's second look at the free-agent class of 2005. Although the names on the board may leave fans breathless, there's little chance most of these guys will leave home.

Top 20 2005 Free Agents

Key: ® = Restricted free agent | (PO) = Player Option | (TO) = Team Option

1. Michael Redd, SG, Bucks (PO)

Michael Redd

Redd

The skinny: On July 1, 2005, Redd might be the hottest free agent on the market. He's making just $3 million in Milwaukee this year and tried to bolt the team two summers ago when he signed a three-year offer sheet with the Dallas Mavericks. Since then, he has become one of the league's best shooters and an All-Star. He'll command a huge raise and the Bucks are prepared to pay it. There has been a lot of talk all season that Redd will bolt the Bucks for the Cavs. However, the day before the trade deadline, Redd gave strong indications to the Bucks that he will re-sign with them as long as they give him a big deal. Still, look for the Cavs to make a big push this summer. The opportunity to return to his home state and play with LeBron might trump the extra year and bigger raises the Bucks can offer.

2. Ray Allen, SG, Sonics

Ray Allen

Allen

The skinny: Of the top-tier guys on the list, Allen has the best shot of leaving. He tried to hammer out a big extension with the Sonics all season, to no avail. The two sides essentially bickered over the last year of a five-year deal being guaranteed. Allen has threatened to bolt if the Sonics don't up their offer … but where would he go? Cleveland is a possibility. If the Cavs don't land Michael Redd, Allen would be an attractive option. Allen hasn't ruled out a return to Milwaukee either, though that doesn't appear likely. The Clippers could have interest, though it's unclear whether Allen would reciprocate. The rest of the teams with money will look for someone younger. All this means that if the Cavs don't come through, Allen's options will be limited to either signing with Seattle for less money or working out a sign-and-trade with the Sonics. Under the last two scenarios, the Sonics get something back in return.

3. Samuel Dalembert, PF/C, 76ers ®

Samuel Dalembert

Dalembert

The skinny: Of all the talented big men from the class of 2001, Dalembert is the most coveted. His breakout performance in April 2004 (12.3 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 4.8 bpg) got teams drooling. This year, his performance has been all over the board, from stunning to awful. However, most NBA scouts blame coach Jim O'Brien more than Dalembert for the center's inconsistent numbers. In the playoffs, Dalembert redeemed himself to an extent, averaging an NBA high 12.8 rpg in the first round against the Pistons. Dalembert has the size, athleticism and work ethic to be a force somewhere down the road. Good centers don't come along too often. When they're on the free-agent market, teams are usually willing to overpay to get them. The Sixers told everyone as the trade deadline came and went that he's untouchable and that they plan to re-sign him this summer … but at what price? Sixers GM Billy King is a big fan, but O'Brien isn't. How much do you pay a guy the coach doesn't like? And given how far the Sixers are over the luxury tax, can they afford to pay him big money? King says yes. We'll see. The Hawks are willing to throw near-max numbers at him. The Cavs and Sonics also are interested. As are teams willing to do a sign-and-trade, such as the Dallas Mavericks and New York Knicks. Dalembert is going to get paid somewhere. … the question is whether it will be in Philly.

4. Tyson Chandler, PF/C, Bulls ®

Tyson Chandler

Chandler

The skinny: Chandler had another up-and-down season for the Bulls. He has stayed healthy, was terrific on the boards again and showed signs that he's an emerging shot blocker. But his offensive game has really stagnated. He still hasn't developed any semblance of a low-post game, getting most of his shots off offensive rebounds and a nice little 10-foot jumper. However, he was very good in the playoffs, which will surely help his stock. Bulls GM John Paxson loves Chandler. He's got a great work ethic both off and on the court that Paxson admires. But what will he pay him? Chandler's history with injuries and his limited offensive potential may keep Paxson from throwing the bank at him. That gives an opening for a team like Cleveland or Atlanta to think about throwing a max-type deal his way. In the end, however, it probably would be fruitless. Paxson has said he'll match any deal for Chandler, and I believe it. He's too important to the Bulls' future, and he has the potential to turn into a Ben Wallace-type defensive force (except Chandler is five inches taller) as long as he remains healthy.

5. Larry Hughes, G, Wizards

Larry Hughes

Hughes

The skinny: Hughes picked a great time to have a career year. He's averaged career highs in points, rebounds, assists and steals and was well on his way toward an All-Star berth before suffering a midseason injury. There's no question the Wizards want him back and will be willing to pay him. Hughes just turned 26 and seems to be in the prime of his career. The Wizards likely will have competition from the Bucks (if Redd doesn't re-sign), the Cavs and possibly the Clippers. But at the end of the day, the Wizards can offer the most money and seem inclined to do it.

6. Joe Johnson, G, Suns ®

Joe Johnson

Johnson

The skinny: People talk about Redd and Allen as the league's premier shooters, but what about Johnson? He ranked second in the league in 3-point percentage this season and seventh in 3-pointers made. Yes, he gets a lot of open shots considering that most defenses are preoccupied trying to contain Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Steve Nash – but Johnson has proven repeatedly that he can take over a game when needed. The Suns want him back and own his restricted rights. Suns GM Bryan Colangelo told Insider several weeks ago that the team is prepared to match any offer for him. However, Johnson hasn't sounded so sure, and for good reason. The Suns have been trying to stay out of luxury-tax land, and paying Johnson a starting salary of $7-8 million per year will put them dangerously close to the threshold. Once the Suns extend Stoudemire to a max deal, their cap position could get out of control quickly starting in summer 2006. The Cavs will strongly consider Johnson if Redd doesn't sign with them. He's also likely to get some love from the Bobcats and possibly the Clippers. The Suns are hoping that the interest is limited and that they can re-sign him to a more modest deal. If a bidding war breaks out, the Suns might not be able to keep up.

7. Stromile Swift, PF/C, Grizzlies

Stromile Swift

Swift

The skinny: Swift took the Grizzlies' one-year tender offer last summer so he'd be an unrestricted free agent this summer. Expect him to take advantage of it. He has never quite performed up to expectations in Memphis. Still, Swift has the athleticism, shot blocking and rebounding skills many teams covet. He might never be a great offensive player or a particularly smart player, but on an up-tempo team that likes to get out and run, he could be very, very good. Look for the Hawks, Hornets, Bucks and possibly the Cavs and Sonics to show interest.

8. Eddy Curry, C, Bulls ®

Eddy Curry

Curry

The skinny: Curry is one of this crop's biggest enigmas. He's a talented low-post scorer who still seems to be growing as a player. But questions about his work ethic on and off the court have haunted him (how can a guy his size play 20-plus minutes and grab just one rebound?). The relationship between Curry and the Bulls has waxed and waned considerably over the past three seasons. There were several points this year when it seemed like a lock that Curry would be back in a Bulls' uniform next season. Right now, that scenario is less than certain. Curry had a heart problem toward the end of the season that forced him to miss the playoffs. The Bulls are still having tests run. If there's anything even remotely serious, his value will plummet. If he gets a clean bill of health, things will be more interesting. The Bulls like Curry, but owner Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't sound ready to commit to a huge guaranteed deal for him. If Curry can persuade a team such as Atlanta or Seattle to roll the dice and offer him a big deal, will the Bulls match? GM John Paxson says yes, but it might depend on how the collective-bargaining negotiations turn out. If Curry can get only a four-year deal somewhere else, the Bulls might be willing to take the risk.

9. Shareef Abdur-Rahim, PF, Blazers

Abdur-Rahim

Abdur-Rahim

The skinny: Abdur-Rahim is an enigma. Every year, he puts up great stats for whatever team he's on, but he's never played on a team with a winning record. Never. The chances of his returning to Portland are slim. He knows that Zach Randolph is the Blazers' future star at the four and doesn't want to keep playing out of position on one of the NBA's most dysfunctional franchises. At 28, Abdur-Rahim still has plenty of juice left. But who's going to offer him the cash? Most of the teams with money are already set at his position or are looking for someone young. A number of veteran teams – including the Nets, Timberwolves and Heat – would love to get their hands on him, but all they can offer is a mid-level exception. The Blazers might be willing to do a sign-and-trade, but given how screwed up things in Portland are right now, who knows what the team will do?

10. Zydrunas Ilgauskas, C, Cavs

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Ilgauskas

The skinny: It's pretty rare when an All-Star-caliber center appears on the unrestricted market. Ilgauskas has issues. He turns 30 in June and, despite having played relatively injury-free basketball the past few seasons, he has a history of foot injuries that would scare away any team doctor. However, his ability to score in the paint and block shots makes him a coveted commodity in a league that lacks big guys. The Cavs want to re-sign him, but for no more than a four-year deal that pays him roughly $44 million. If Ilgauskas pushes for more, the Cavs might wait him out this summer. Like Rahim, he doesn't have many potential suitors among the teams that have cap room, and the Cavs have no interest in a sign-and-trade, closing off that avenue. If Ilgauskas has to choose between taking $5 million in the mid-level exception and taking $10 million from the Cavs, what do you think he'll choose?

11. Bobby Simmons, G/F, Clippers

Bobby Simmons

Simmons

The skinny: Simmons stands to be one of the more coveted free agents on the market because he's an unrestricted free agent, plays for the Clippers and shouldn't break a bank account to get signed. Simmons has been improving throughout the season. In February, he averaged 20 ppg while shooting 50 percent from the field and 57 percent from 3. He's versatile, a great rebounder for his size and one of the league's best free-throw shooters. He's a hardworking kid who doesn't turn 25 until mid-June, so what isn't there to like about him? The Clippers want him back badly, but they are likely to get some serious competition from the Bobcats, the Hornets and possibly the Cavs.

12. Marko Jaric, PG, Clippers ®

Marko Jaric

Jaric

The skinny: When Jaric has been healthy, he has looked solid. The pickings are slim at the point-guard position, which should bode well for Jaric. A number of teams – including the Utah Jazz, Orlando Magic, Sacramento Kings and Blazers – are interested, but none of them has more than the mid-level to make something happen. The Cavs have more to offer and are interested, but might be unwilling to lock up their cap space for 15 days while they wait for LA to match. The Clippers are inclined to keep him anyway, as long as the bidding doesn't get out of control for both Jaric and Simmons. Los Angeles has a nice young nucleus that should continue to improve as long as the players stay healthy.

13. Kwame Brown, PF/C, Wizards ®

Kwame Brown

Brown

The skinny: Despite all of Kwame's problems, teams are still interested. In fact, now that the Wizards have suspended him, the interest might go up. Before, many GMs felt that Washington would match any offer for Brown. Not anymore. Despite his problems, Brown still has upside. There aren't a lot of athletic, 7-foot 23-year-olds on the market. A team such as Atlanta, desperate to turn around its fortunes, might just send a significant contract his way. Brown played high school ball in Atlanta and still has a fan base there. Given the load of cash the Hawks have to work with, they might be able to afford him, Dalembert and a point guard such as Earl Watson.

14. Vladimir Radmanovic, F, Sonics ®

Vladimir Radmanovic

Radmanovic

The skinny: Radmanovic was the leading contender to win the Sixth Man Award before breaking his leg and missing the last six weeks of the season. He was a critical component in the Sonics' unlikely run this year and has a lot of fans around the league. He'd like to get out of Seattle and move to a team willing to give him a starting role. Although there are a number of teams that would be interested, Radmanovic's problem is the competition at his position going into the summer. According to a number of teams that Insider talked to, Redd, Allen, Hughes, Johnson and Simmons all rank higher on the boards of teams that have money to spend. If a number of other options fall through, teams such as Cleveland, Milwaukee and possibly Atlanta are interested. However, if those teams find help somewhere else, Radmanovic might be forced to take the mid-level exception. A number of teams would be interested in giving it to him, but at that point it's likely that the Sonics would match.

15. Antoine Walker, F, Celtics

Antoine Walker

Walker

The skinny: Walker's reemergence in Boston was supposed to pay off for him this summer. However, after the Celtics tanked in the first round (and Walker was less than stellar), he seems to be right back where he was in Atlanta. Walker put up decent numbers all season, but many teams are writing them off as meaningless. His abysmal plus/minus numbers for the Hawks, among the worst in the league, haven't helped his cause. In Walker's defense, he was a spark for the Celtics, helping Paul Pierce be happy again and making GM Danny Ainge look like a genius for about a month. But the effect was short-lived. What happens this summer? No teams with cap room will show serious interest in Walker. The Celtics might be willing to re-sign him, but not for anything near the $14 million he makes this season. Cut that number to less than half, and the Celtics might start talking. Walker might have no choice but to take it or a bigger pay cut for another team's mid-level exception (the Knicks and Sixers come to mind) .

16. Antonio Daniels, PG, Sonics (PO)

Antonio Daniels

Daniels

The skinny: Daniels is another contender for the Sixth Man Award and likely will try to bolt Seattle this summer. He has posted two solid seasons with the Sonics, is one of the best point-guard defenders in the league and has improved his jump shot to the point that defenders have to at least guard him. He has become increasingly comfortable as a point guard the past two seasons and should become a solid starter on a team such as the Rockets, who are looking for more size and leadership at the position.

17. Kyle Korver, SF, 76ers ®

Kyle Korver

Korver

The skinny: Korver has turned himself into one of the NBA's sweetest long-range shooters and should get a lot of attention from teams willing to use their mid-level exceptions. The Sixers want to keep him and can match any offer up to the mid-level. However, if a team offers more, the Sixers cannot match (they own only Korver's early Larry Bird rights). That's unlikely, especially with his poor performance in the playoffs.

18. Earl Watson, PG, Grizzlies

Earl Watson

Watson

The skinny: Watson remains one of the most underrated point guards in the league and should generate significant interest this summer. He has played backup to Jason Williams most of his career, but his player efficiency ratings make him, at the very least, Williams' equal. He's one of the best defensive point guards in the league, and he keeps turnovers to a minimum. He won't score a lot of points due to a faulty jumper, but he definitely can run a team. Teams such as the Bobcats, Bucks, Blazers, Cavs, Hawks, Jazz, Rockets and Magic all should have interest, and Watson should be available. GM Jerry West loves him, but with the Grizzlies' payroll spiraling out of control, it's likely they won't be able to re-sign Watson, who can get a deal elsewhere starting at four or five million per. Given Watson's desire to be a starter, it's unlikely that he would choose to re-up with Memphis even if the Grizzlies could afford him.

19. Sarunas Jasikevicius, PG, Maccabi Tel Aviv

The skinny: Jasikevicius is the best point guard in Europe and has led his team to three straight Euroleague Championships. The former Maryland star is an incredible passer, has deep range on his jumper and plays with lots of emotion and grit. If he were more athletic, a better defender and four or five years younger (he's 29 now) he'd be near the top of the list. But as it stands, he'd be a great mid-level pick-up for a team trying to compete for a championship.

20. Donyell Marshall, F, Raptors

Donyell Marshall

Marshall

The skinny: Marshall became one of the most coveted guys on the trading block last fall and will likely get a lot of interest (for the mid-level exception) from the same teams that pursued him then: the Bulls, Rockets, Heat and Sixers.

Best of the rest

Player/Team Option: Shaquille O'Neal, C, Heat (PO); Damon Jones, PG, Heat (PO); Darius Songaila, F, Kings (PO);Keith Van Horn, F, Mavericks (PO); Cuttino Mobley, SG, Kings (PO); Jalen Rose, SG, Raptors (PO); Grant Hill, SF, Magic (PO); Jamal Mashburn, SF, Hornets (PO); Bonzi Wells, SG, Grizzlies (TO); Eddie Jones, SG, Heat (PO); Nick Van Exel, PG, Blazers (TO); Bobby Jackson, PG, Kings (TO); Devean George, SF, Los Angeles Lakers (PO); Predrag Drobnjak, C, Hawks (TO); Austin Croshere, F, Pacers (PO); Clifford Robinson, F, Nets (TO)

Note: It's very unlikely most of the players on the above list will exercise their player options – that's why they weren't listed on the Top-20 list. The only exceptions could be Mobley, Damon Jones and Songaila, who might opt out in an attempt to get more money elsewhere.

Unrestricted: Damon Stoudamire, PG, Blazers; Gary Payton, PG, Celtics; Jerome James, C, Sonics; Latrell Sprewell, SG, Timberwolves; Jeff McInnis, PG, Cavs; Dan Dickau, PG, Hornets; Dale Davis, C, Warriors; Kerry Kittles, SG, Clippers; Glenn Robinson, SF, Spurs; Jahidi White, C, Bobcats; Bo Outlaw, F, Grizzlies; Ervin Johnson, C, Timberwolves; Raja Bell, G/F, Jazz; Mark Madsen, F, Timberwolves; Tyronn Lue, PG, Rockets; Darrell Armstrong, PG, Mavericks.

Restricted: Udonis Haslem, F, Heat; Gerald Wallace, G/F, Bobcats; Dan Gadzuric, C, Bucks; Zaza Pachulia, C, Bucks; Reggie Evans, F, Sonics; Ronald Murray, G, Sonics; Luke Walton, F, Lakers; Jason Kapono, F, Bobcats; Willie Green, G, Sixers; Matt Bonner, F, Raptors

European Free Agents: Maceo Baston, PF, Maccabi Tel Aviv; Arvydas Macijauskas, SG, TAU Vitoria; Anthony Parker, SG/SF, Maccabi Tel Aviv; Travis Hansen, SG/SF, TAU Vitoria; Nikola Vujcic, C, Maccabi Tel Aviv; Jose Manuel Calderon, PG, Tau Vitoria; Dimitris Diamantidis, PG, Panathinaikos; Demos Dikoudis, SF, CSKA Moscow

Chad Ford covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

Let me chime in as a Bulls fan who is just now emerging from the 6 years of hell they put me through. The reason that Duhon is a starter on a playoff bound team is because of his defense. I didn't see the Hawks game - maybe his defense was off- but the reason Skiles has had him starting all season is because he doesn't play defense like a rookie. He is an excellent help defender and understands team defense. He might never be a great one on one defender, but he doesn't have to be because he doesn't allow himself to get put into those positions. The Bulls are structured around their team defense and Duhon is a big part of that. Duhon's problem is that you'll be lucky if he gives you 7 pts a game. The assists will always be there, but I don't think he'll ever be a consistent shooter. But most certainly defense is not his weakness...

1. Vince Carter is Looking like the man again. Now that he has Marshall, I think Vince might be able to take that team somewhere. My question is... IS Bosh a C? I don't think Toronto is through dealing. I think they may package Rose for a C. Theo?

Answer: Vince is starting to play like the Vince of old, actually he looks better than ever. As for trading Rose again, the Bulls couldn't get anything for him so what makes you think the Raptors will? I think Rose is there to help out Vince on nights he doesn't have it all going. And please Toronto, don't put Bosh at center, he's too skinny and too raw. :Let him develop at his natural PF.

2. I was listening to the Philly commentators trying to Justify AI missing practicing. They were saying " Sometimes, when you are "the man" you need a day off.." " Yeah, this kid is there day in and day out and he goes to the line about 9 times a game.." I think having a set of rules for AI and a different set for everyone else is wrong, then again, that's what the league does with its Stars.

Answer: Same old same old. That's the NBA right now. I hate but what are you gonna do about it. I should reference Duncans suspension for pushing an official. What was that official doing on the court at the top of the key? It looks to me like he was trying to save face, he wasn't quick enough to move out of a place he shouldn't of been in and he was embarassed.

3. Carmello Anthony is starting to play like the truth. [censored]. How good is Denver. Last night watching the game, I was like... What if Detroit would have picked Anthony??

Billups, Rip, Anthony, Wallace, Omet.... Dang.

Answer: No argument's here.

4. The Bulls say that they want a Scorer. I think Reef may be on their list. What can they offer that would make us say... "YES"! Chandler/Davis??

Answer: No way they go after Reef and that contract of his. They still have to pay for Curry, Chandler and possibly Crawford. Also Paxson's already said that there are two untouchables, Curry and Chandler, no way Chi trades either one of them. One more thing, Chandler is exactly the type of player Paxson wants on his team; high energy, plays hurt, cares about winning and losing, and busts his ass on the court. I think the only person we might trade for a "true scorer" is Crawford. Although I believe Crawford will develop into a 2 and Hinrich will become an efficient point guard.

ESPN.com news services

The Toronto Raptors believe they have found Vince Carter some help.

Rose

The Raptors and Bulls agreed to a deal Saturday that will send Jalen Rose, Lonny Baxter and Donyell Marshall to Toronto for Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams and Chris Jefferies, ESPN's David Aldridge has learned.

The league office is closed for the holiday weekend, so the trade won't be announced until Monday at the earliest. League sources tell ESPN.com that Davis and Williams will not play for the Raptors tonight in Miami. Jefferies is on the injured list and would not be eligible to play anyway.

The Bulls are not scheduled to play this weekend.

Even though Rose struggled this season with the Bulls, he was the key player in the deal. Three times in his career he has averaged more than 20 points per game, including the 2002-03 season (22.1). He has a career scoring average of 14.4 points per game.

ESPN.com reported last week that the two teams were discussing a trade involving Rose, and were trying to get the right players involved so the deal would work under their respective salary caps. This was the third attempt between the two teams to get the deal done.

**********************************************

It's too bad the Bulls had to give up D. Marshall and L. Baxter, but I guess it's worth it to get rid of Rose and his albatross of a contract. I know A. Davis wanted to play in Chicago, and his contract is two years shorter than Rose's. Getting Jerome Williams aka the junkyard dog is a nice bonus.

"WGN radio is reporting that Scott Skiles will be named the new head coach in the next few days. Skiles was head coach of the Phoenix Suns from 1999-2001. He posted a record of 116-79, including a 5-8 playoff record. The Suns fired Skiles after 51 games in 2001." chicagotribune.com

Making the playoffs in hockey is nothing to get too excited about. Although the Thrashers have a much brighter future than my beloved Blackhawks. No direction, no future, no talent, only their loyal fans. Dam,n you Bill Wirtz!!!

I'm sorry, I thought I was posting a story relevant to the Atlanta Hawks and their fans. I tell you what, next time I'm gonna post a story, I'll run it by you first. You let me know whether it's appropriate for this board or not. I guess I didn't realize you were the Admin. Or maybe you just don't agree with what the article says.

Hopeless Hawks now NBA's biggest lost cause

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Peter May

Special to ESPN.com

On the night of May 22, there was an understated sense of excitement in the offices of the Atlanta Hawks. They were one of 13 teams in the lottery and they were hoping for the best, even if the odds were almost overwhelming. Still, there was a chance that the right combination could pop up, giving the Hawks the first pick.

Hawks boss Stan Kasten had extra operators ready to handle what he anticipated would be a flood of phone calls. The promotions people were ready. The marketing and advertising people were ready. Then came the lottery and, once again, Atlanta's basketball fortunes settled into that now familiar state, somewhere between ennui and apathy.

Kasten, who knows the Atlanta sports scene as well as anyone, believes that the Hawks would have been deluged with calls had they ended up with LeBron James. He points to the excitement that Michael Vick generated when the Falcons acquired him. He says the city will support a winner, or at least a team bent on winning and seemingly headed in the right direction.

Believe it or not, Jason Terry wants to stay and play in Atlanta.

The Hawks, as of now, provide none of that. Zero. You could make a pretty convincing case that Atlanta is now, officially, the Team Without Hope in the NBA. There is no other team, not even the still-in-the-womb Bobcats, which offers less hope for the few fans who still care. The Nuggets are awful, but they have Carmelo Anthony and a lot of money. The Clippers have finally arrived into the 21st Century. The Warriors at least have some tradeable assets. As we sit at the end of July 2003, there quite possibly is no worse situation in the NBA than the one in Atlanta. And we are led to believe that there is actually someone out there who wants to buy this thing?

You can make a case that Atlanta and Cleveland were 1-2 or 2-1 in the "Who cares?" department on May 21. They played among the fewest fans in the NBA last season; dish people surfing NBA TV got accustomed to seeing the empty black seats in Philips Arena and the empty blue seats in Gund Arena. And now? The Hawks are promoting James' first visit to Atlanta. How twisted and ironic is that?

The Hawks thought they had turned the proverbial corner last summer, acquiring Glenn Robinson from Milwaukee. Soon-to-be-ex-head coach Lon Kruger promised the playoffs -- or rebates to season-ticket holders. The season-ticket holders won that one. The Big Dog proved true to his nickname, despite his usual, flossy numbers. The Hawks had a better winning percentage when he was out of the lineup (9-4 vs. 26-43) and shipped him to Philadelphia in the recent, four-team megatrade.

And who did they get back? Terrell Brandon, who will never play again and whose big contract comes off the books a few months into the season, and Randy Holcomb. The Hawks gave up their leading scorer, third-leading rebounder and second-leading assist guy and got an expiring contract in return? Second-leading scorer Shareef Abdur-Rahim wondered to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "We give up 20 points a game for a guy who's going to retire? Something else is coming behind."

Yes, and that someone, we are told, is David McDavid, who must really, really, really have a lot of money and who must really, really, really want to be an NBA owner. This is the same guy who has a business called the "David McDavid Collision Center" which has a prominent place on the road into Dallas from DFW Airport. Is that where the Hawks deals are being made?

(Then again, predecessor Ted Turner once gave up Jane Fonda and kept John Rocker, so maybe this will be an upgrade.)

McDavid still hasn't officially taken over yet, so the Hawks are in limbo. But payroll-slicing deals like the Robinson trade always look good to the incoming boss. Meanwhile, the Hawks are essentially rudderless in the front office, although mainstay Kasten is still around and soon will be able to devote his attention to the Braves. Billy Knight is on board now as the general manager, but he has the dreaded "I" word permanently attached to his title: interim. There is no head coach, unless you want to count Terry Stotts, the guy who mopped up last season. He, too, has been an interim fellow.

The Hawks not only gave away Robinson. In acquiring him from Milwaukee, they also gave up their first-round pick from the 2003 NBA draft (although it was protected at the top.) That meant that instead of getting the eighth pick, Atlanta had to give it to the Bucks, who swooped in and got T.J. Ford, a point guard who would have fit quite well into the Hawks' point guard-challenged lineup.

The Hawks have yet to re-sign Jason Terry, whose agent is trying to shake the Hawks into doing something by offering up non-existent offer sheets from other teams (Utah.) Terry has nowhere to go and has said he actually wants to stay in Atlanta, where he has played reasonably well. After the Robinson trade, he told the Journal-Constitution, "They said they wanted to free up space to sign free agents. I know one free agent that would like to get signed. We'll see what happens." He has been given a qualifying offer for next season.

The Hawks are saying they will match any offer to Terry, who is a restricted free agent. They probably will follow through on that; they pretty much have to unless they want to consider joining the ACC next season.

The Hawks are saying they will match any offer to Terry, who is a restricted free agent. They probably will follow through on that; they pretty much have to unless they want to consider joining the ACC next season. But they allowed Dion Glover, the No. 4 scorer from last year, to become an unrestricted free agent. Ira Newble, who started 45 games last year, went to Cleveland.

As of now, there are nine players on the Atlanta roster. Two of them are draft picks. One of them will never play again (Brandon) and two others (Nazr Mohammed and Chris Crawford) missed a bulk of last year with injuries. Among those left standing are Abdur-Rahim, who has played more games than any active NBA player (533) without so much as getting a sniff at the postseason. And unless he gets traded, this time next year he could be 82 games closer to Tom Van Arsdale, who played 929 games and never cashed a playoff check. Theo Ratliff, Alan Henderson, and, we have to believe, Terry should also be back.

That's not much. It'll be even less if Dallas can pry Ratliff away. The Hawks are clearly looking ahead -- two years from now, they might actually have some cap room. But you've still got to play the 2003-04 and 2004-05 seasons.

Those picky Atlanta fans at least have the Braves and, soon, the Falcons will be up and running again. Even the NHL Thrashers managed to re-sign Slava Kozlov. The Thrashers may have to pass for winter sports entertainment at Philips Arena this coming season. The only other options are the NBA teams which, by rules, must pass through.

Peter May, who covers the NBA for the Boston Globe, is a regular contributor to ESPN.com.

Atlanta plays the Bulls in Chicago on Oct. 31. May the best team show itself.

Now thats funny!

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid.

-Friedrich Nietzsche-

I don't believe that in any of my posts I actually resorted to name calling. And I hardly think the banter thats been going back and forth here has been by any means venomous. A little good natured ribbing between fans of two down-trodden franchises can hardly be bad. But hey if you were offended, I'm sorry for you.

Listen, most of what has been said is pretty subjective. I said before that intelligent people can agree to disagree. But only an idiot would say Hinrich is a bust after only 6 games in the Rocky Mountain Revue. And Fizer has proven to be a bust as a starter, but is more than able coming off the bench. And as far as Hinrich goes, the Bulls aren't counting on him to claim a starting spot, they only want him to be the guy off the bench who can run the team when Crawford or Rose needs a breather. If he plays the whole season like he did in the revue, other than the one fantastic game he played, than you will have proved prophetic.

Point 1. The team tanking it.

Obviously the team was looking ahead to this coming season when it traded away 20ppg, even if he was a cancer it's still 20ppg, for cap space. If Atlanta wanted to win this year they would of traded Robinson for an actual body. Even if they are better without him wouldn't it of made sense to trade for a sg, or another position of need, rather than something inantimate. Oh and the point of all the east needs is a good coach to get to the Finals is a joke. Coaching in the NBA is the most overated of all sports. Talent wins in the NBA, unlike Football or Hockey where good coaching can win games.

Point 2. Hawks five wins better.

Basically I think you just rehashed your argument from above, team being better without Robinson and such. Then you mentioned some inane stat you heard on a broadcast. If SAR gets so many shots a game the Hawks would win 80% of their games. I'd like you to consider that for a moment. By that reasoning the Hawks should win 60 games next year, all they have to do is let SAR chuck it up their to get his shots and they'd win, seeing as the all-star Robinson isn't there to hog the shots. Do you see how insane that reasoning is? The five wins seperating the Hawks and Bulls is almost nothing. Consider what the Hawks and Bulls did in the offseason to improve. Hawks traded away a very talented cancer for nothing. Bulls picked up a decent veteran ballhandler who still plays great defense.

Point 3. Comparing Mohammed to Marshall and Fizer

First off, you were the one who questioned whether Fizer had ever done anything other than being trade bait, and then said what a great reserve Mohammed is. All I pointed out was that Fizer has had a better season to date than Mohammed. If Mohammed was as good as you believe he is, he'd be getting more than 12 mins a game. Stats show that even if performance is based on 48mins a game Marshall and Fizer stats are superior to Mohammed. As for Orlando denying a Mike Miller for Fizer trade, I'm not sure what that proves other than a trade didn't happen. I never said Fizer was an all star everyone wanted, only that he's better than any of the Hawks reserves.

Point 4. The question of well rounded (your words)

First you try to compare your starters past accolades to players who are now Bulls reserves. Yes SAR was an all-star in Vancouver, but hows he fared in Atlanta. He's never taken a team to a winning record. Terry is an undersized guard no matter where he plays, and defense is always going to be a liability. And Ratliff is one bang away from missing the season again. If you look at my comments you'll notice that I refered to E-Rob as vastly overpaid, he is a scrub for the money he's making, and yet he still has better stats than the Hawks reserves. As for Henderson rebounding from the bench, if he played better when he was out there he would get the minutes, same with Mohammed.

The point is that the starters might be a wash, but the Hawks have no bench. You let your most talented bench player (Newble) walk. You can fill it with all the Kendall Gills you want and you still wont have the talent and the experience the Bulls have on the bench. Thats where the difference lies, and where the Bulls prove themselves to be a better team.

Thats not even counting the fact that you havn't resigned Terry (I know he's restricted).

It's absolutely incredulous that you could belive the Hawks are a better team than the Bulls this year. In case you didn't notice, your team is tanking it this year to save payroll and start anew in a season or two, like the Bulls three years ago.

The Hawks were only five wins better last year than the Bulls and you just traded away your leading scorer for cap space!

And comparing Mohammed to Marshall is a joke, check their stats. Even Fizers stats are better than Mohammeds and you said he was nothing.

Well rounded? You've got a 6'2" pg who likes to shoot more than pass, don't even have a SG, you're SF is a rookie, you're PF is an excellent talent who's never made his teams better, and your C just finally played a full season for the first time in six years. None of your reserves averaged more than 5pts a game last season.

Fizer avg 11pts 6reb, Marshall avg 14pts 9reb, not to mention E. Robinson who despite being vastly overpaid does provide defense and scoring off the bench.

Listen, the Bulls aren't great by any means, but they most certainly better than any team the Hawks could field right now. Face it, all the Hawks have right now is Rahim and Terry if they can sign him.

I've met plenty of delusional Bulls fans over the last three years, but I don't know that any of them were operating on as grand a scale as you are.

But intelligent minds can agree to disagree.

Ultimately I guess we'll find out for sure what will happen the first time these teams play.