Crank

Yea Craw can't guard most point guards and he can't stop any 2-guards either, but if he's hot he may score enough points to off-set it. But without Joe, the double teams would go to Craw or Smoove, shut them down and we are in trouble.

Why would the assumption be that we would still be running iso-joe if Joe leaves ? If Joe leaves it becomes about all 5 players not just one player

1) Who's going to score in that lineup? Crawford? Yeah, because the Bulls, Knicks, and Warriors all did real well when he was counted on to be the offensive frontman. I guess Crawford scoring fewer points than JJ on a lower shooting percentage while commiting more turnovers was all an optical illusion that lasted for several years.

2) You want to move the best interior help defender in the NBA out to the perimeter by making him SF?

NineOh, you've got it pegged. JJ dominates the ball, I agree. But why don't y'all go talk to the folks in New York and Frisco about Crawford. Like Flip last year, people are ok with Crawford being a ballhog because he's new. But "new" is not "better."

Good Lord where does this stuff come from ?

When was Crawford counted on to carry the Bulls offensively ?

The knicks were never Crawfords team it was Marburys team ? Marbury was making more than Joe is right now ? The knicks traded multiple #1's for Eddy Curry ? Where is he now ?

The Warriors had Monta Ellis who they paid over 60 million as well as Andre Biedrens who they paid 60 million too as well . They also gave Corey Maggette 50 million and then extended Pyscho man Steven Jackson and somehow Crawford was the frontman offensively ?

It seems to me that every team you mentioned sucked because they invested max type dollars in non max type players and when the expectations were raised none of them could live up to them.Crawford was the guy asked to pick up their but hes not a #1 and I think everyone knows this .

What you need to ask yourself is that if JJ walks do you really think we wouldnt be able to score points ? I think we would actually run more plays and fewer iso's if you ask me and that may not be such a bad thing.

Crawford has not taken more than 16 shots in a game this season but somehow hes a ballhog even though thats what the coach has flat out said thats what he wants him to do when he comes in the game . Why should we care what knicks fans or warriors fans think ? Those organizations have their own problems that have nothing to do with Crawford as weve seen the past few weeks . Shouldnt we be judging Crawford but what he does in a hawks uni just as we should do Bibby and everyone else ?

If Joe leaves we will count on Crawford to score but it wouldnt be about Crawford in the last year of his deal moreso than it would be about whether Al and Smoove are bonafide stars and ready to stepup and carry the team .

As for the original question of why Joe is getting so much flack this year ? Its quite simple the expectations have been raised and while Joe is a better all around player than Crawford I think that Crawford has made Joe look bad simply by sharing the ball . Its almost as if Crawfords ability to score and pass has placed a spotlight on Joe and his unwillingness to move the ball at times . His calling out the team in the media just makes the spotlight bigger .

I don't feel like we are running more than last year. Does anyone know the fast break stats?

We are 4th in Pace this year and we were 24th last season . The defense is down a bit but not by much if you factor in the faster pace.

Dumb and irrelevant post.

The pattern here for years is that if a Hawk is injured people will openly blame a loss on the Hawks injuries . But if the opposing team is missing players people just ignore it and pretend like they were healthy. Just the mere mention of an opposing team injury is raging heresy. That is just blind homerism.

Nowhere did i say that the Hawks would have lost if KMart and Smith were playing but that doesn't stop the homers from saying that i am making excuses for a win. All i was doing was stating a fact, that Martin and Smith were out. Some people just aren't interested in facts.

Thats the nature of the game . EVERY FAN BASE does the same thing. You dont think the Lakers fans are saying they would be undefeated if they had Pau ? Is it not natural for fans to assume their team is better fully healthy then when guys are out injured ? Your argument is shallow and petty simply because you seem to operate under some delusion that Hawks fans are the only ones that do this when all fans across all sports do the exact same thing.

Everyone nows Kmart and Smith are out why does it have to be stated AFTER WE WIN ? Could we have decided to not play the game ? Regardless of who is on the otherside we still have to go out and play the game . Considering we just lost to the Bobcats the night before and a win on the second night of a back to back is not guaranteed by any means. The nature of playing an 82game season dictates that there will probably be a time when teams will play us when we are shorthanded and vice versa .

Joe got the award for scoring 20 pts, 6.5 reb, 3.25 assists per game, ..25 steals, .25 blocks shooting 47% from the floor

Josh didn't get considered but went for 15.25 pts, 7.25 reb, 3.5 assists per game, 1 steal, 3.75 blocks and shot 57% from the floor.

Joe had 3 TO/G, Josh has 1 TO/G. Joe got his stats in 37 minutes, Josh in only 30.5.

Joe = 4.75 more ppg

Josh = .75 more rpg, .25 more apg, .75 more spg, 3.5 more bpg, 10% better shooting, 2 less turnovers.

Josh beat Joe in every statistical category except PPG. This award is a joke. He wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Grats to Joe first of all Im just glad a Hawk won it .

But when I looked I saw that

Crawford averaged 22 points per game,4 assists per game, and shot 51% from the field in that same span as well . They shouldve had all 3 teammates share the award

Yet again a Hawks fan ignores the opponents injuries. Jamison was out and Butler got hurt in the first half and didn't return.

so we shouldve postponed the game until everyone is healthy ? I think the nba should look into that and only allow the games to be played in which both teams are fully healthy .

2 blowout L's shouldn't get you in the top 6.

This aint the BCS how much you lose by is irrelevant

Joe is worth more to us simply because we would possibly lose him for nothing. Also right now he is in the top 25 in salary if we paid him what he wants he immediately shoots into the top ten in salary and that opens up a ton of other questions like

Can Joe sufficiently fill the seats to warrant that type of salaried commitment to him ?At one point it will be over 20 million per year!

Have we seen enough from a leadership standpoint to suggest he can keep this team on a upward slope ?

How will this affect our ability to improve the team going forward ?

Are we prepared to S & T him ? what is our relationship with teams thats will have cap space ?

There are plenty of questions that need to be answered by next summer .

Im torn about this issue now .I was fully behind Diesel in the summer as I knew from watching some film that Crawford would be this good in hawks uniform.However Crawford is a very confident player who will do well no matter where we put him .He is in his prime and is a top 15 SG in this league right now .Marvin doesnt seem to have much confidence right now and I would rather use the next few weeks trying to help him find it . I was hoping Woody wouldve left Marvin in with the second unit in the second half as I think Crawford may be more help to his game at this point then JJ .

The other reason I think its best to have Crawford off the bench is I dont know how JJ will handle it . He seems pretty fragile right now and he seems to know with every good game by Crawford and Smoove the chance to prove he is worth the full max will come down to how well he does in the playoffs .

Im for status quo right now with a revisiting of this topic after 25 games .

Just looked it up and the last time Crawford went to Charlotte he dropped 50 on them and basically destroyed Augustin and Felton at the pg position . We should probably see him more at the point tonight then at SG.

I also read somewhere that Wallace and Felton have yet to make a three pointer this season . Lets come out strong and put them away early so we can rest for the Nuggets

I used an example and you are trying to use that as the emphasis of my argument? The point I'm making is that had Jamal simply been able to just average within 16-18 points on a nightly basis he would have been far more endearing character to Knick faithful rather than the feast or famine player that he was. There's a lot of points between 50 and 0 and he could touch on any in any given night. He can pass, he could always pass, for a player to have the ball in his hands as much as he's had that has never been an issue with him. The issue was that he was the man and he couldn't be counted on with his inconsistent play. When teams needed a score they always turned to Jamal and he would either come through for them or not, more often he would not. All the talent in the world to drive on anyone but he would always fall back to that jumper even if it wasn't falling for him. The guy has been in the league for 9 years, don't try and make it out to be that he was just some poor soul along for the ride to hell, that is just fallacious. Plenty of scouts and coaches have spoken on Jamal Crawford the player and have mentioned his deficiencies outside of whatever you want to blame on a team. You can try and deny that all you want but 9 years is enough to get to know a player.

and again you are talking about the knick faithful wiothout taking into account what the coach is asking him to do .

Did the coaches just ask him to average 16-18 ?

The knicks gave crazy Marbury 20 million per year and yet Crawford was left holding the bag .

Just by a simple click on his stat page I can see that

in 2007 he averaged 17 ppg

In 2008 he averaged 20 ppg

In 2009 he averaged 19 ppg for the knicks under D'antoni

in 2009 he averaged 19 ppg for the warriors

In 2010 he is now averaging 17 ppg for us and I wouldnt be surprised if by the seasons end he is back averaging 19-20 ppg

Nothing has changed about Crawfords game it seems just the people around him and the way he has to go about getting his numbers .

Ive never heard anyone talk about someone being feast or famine when that guy has never had a team built around them . All indicators are that the jamal gave the knicks the 16-18 ppg but since the knicks were in turmoil they squandered it . The knicks were Marburys team and he failed to live up to the billing as a #1 and if you look and compare Crawfords numbers to other #3/borderline #2 guys in the league his numbers are right there .Those guys are #2/3 because they cant carry the load by themselves which means they will have the occasional stinker if they were consistent they would be a #1.

Dude everyone has weaknesses in the nba that is essentially your problem I see .You are holding to some standard that you dont hold anyone else to. No one has said he doesnt Im just saying that the magnitude of his weaknesses as you claim them to be has not given any indications of manifesting themselves and that could simply be because the knicks have been a craphole of a organization for quite a while that basically magnifies his weaknesses kinda like when anyone joins the clippers . The fact that we dont have all the drama here,have made the playoffs,and have a solid leadership from the top down makes this an entirely different situation . I dont get with knowing what a mess that franchise is why we would hold that over Crawfords head and not judge him based on what he has shown in a hawks uniform .

Bull ****. Constantly reading posters claim that the issues on those teams had nothing to do with Jamal are either only fooling themselves or have no idea to begin with. I can speak on the Knicks in particular and say that his inconsistency was as much to blame as any other player there. Jamal was a guy who would give you 50 one night, two days later score 6, three days later score 9, five days later score 20 and then seven days later score 12. Average that out and you got 19ppg which would lead you to believe he's being underrated but in actuality he gave one amazing game coupled with a great game then 3 mediocre to terrible games all on poor shooting with terrible defense to boot. That is why he is given the charge of dual personalities because over the course of a week, sometimes even in a singular game, he can switch between Crawful and Crawesome.

How can you be consistent when your role is forever changing ? as well as the coaches and players as well as the front office issues ? hes scored 50 3 times in career yet somehow in your mind you have set 50 POINTS AS A REASONABLE PLATEAU FOR HIS PLAY . To average 19 pts per game for a season in your example he would have to score 50 points what about 10-12 times ? Again if you have to exaggerate it it usually is not true . From what I could tell isiahs last year he started out at sg and then had to play point with Fred taylor and nate robinson manning the sg position after Marbury abandoned the team basically but yet when I look at his stats from last year under Dantoni he was playing pretty solid ball not the erratic play you are talking about . He then left that environment with both he and the knicks playing well and went to GS where Nelson was erratic with his behavior and allowed Stephen Jackson to becomes the teams captain and mentor to the young guys and his play went up and down and now here he is with us and again he hasnt exhibited any of the stuff youve talked about . Hes not a stat hound is a willing passer has made some nice defensive plays in the short season and in his 3 pt game didnt force the issue at all.

So when I look and see how the knicks are still struggling and GS is are still having the same problems they had even before they traded to Crawford and with all hes shown me so far I have to say its those organizations not Crawford that was the problem. No leadership and organization at the top will lead to erratic play and production on the court.

I find the entire Crawful to Crawesome thing ridiculous as every player in the nba makes good and bad plays/decisions and yes even in the same game .

I said before the season started that you guys shouldnt expect to see Teague get any consistent minutes yet . No coach would be playing him on this road trip if he didnt have too.we should expect to see him consistently heading into the new year after he has gotten an idea of the routine and life on the road in the nba.

The problem with Jamal has never been his talent, it's his consistency. Although I hope for the best with him I just hope this board and other fans don't turn against him when he shows his dual personalities throughout the season.

II think the dual personality charges may be a bit overblown since the the previous two teams he played on had Stephon Marbury and Stephen Jackson in charge :eek:

After seeing what those two to do the organizations they play for I could never imagine how it is to play with them.

You dont usually make changes in the starting lineup so early in the season you usually wait 20-25 games .

I actually like Crawford coming off the bench as it allows us to really force the tempo when he comes in . It allows everyone to get a clear understanding of what there roles are when he does come in the game and it allows us to go from iso joe offense to a pick and roll offense which allows us to get to the line an awful lot and by the time the starters return opponents are in the bonus and every foul they use while trying to double joe send us to the ft line .

Marvin has been a huge disappointment but its the nba and you get more than 2-3 games to make your mark.

I like Bibbys role right now as well simply because it lures teams in to think its the same ol Hawks .The Blazers did not expect for Crawford to have the ball that much and it really confuses them as teams gameplan for the iso joe .As I said in the summer teams do not want their point guards guarding Crawford well except the Celts who have Rondo . But everyone else he causes them fits and now that you have to put your top defender on Joe and now you have this other guy who can shoot from anywhere with the ball on the opposite side of the floor .Who do you double ? when do you double ? off of who do you double ? what about Josh sneaking backdoor for the lobs this opens up soo much of the floor for everyone.

I expect to see more of Crawford at PG as he has brought a legit pick and roll game to the lineup. Tonight against the Lakers Crawford vs Fisher is probably our biggest advantage

There is no need to sit Joe if anything we need to start weeding out iso joe and go to a offense that incorporates more of our weapons .

Old Business: I hope Woody ripped some backside for giving up 100 to Indiana.

Crawford: He's good but Woody has to let him know that he must play team ball. He was the only man to touch the ball on 50% of his makes.

The Pacers averaged a 105 ppg last year so winning a shootout against them on opening night is that big of a deal.

Since when is the pick and roll not team basketball ?

As I said the other day why on earth would Woody ever allow Crawford to take a back seat to Smith,Zaza,Evans or Teague at this point. You put the onus on him to impact the game with his scoring as he should then expect him as a veteran to make the adjustment to finding his teammates when the defenses start to adjust .

Good start by Woody with the pregame talk now he just needs to be in his ear doing the game . We didnt bring Crawford here the Pacers of the league but we are gonna need him to match the benches of the Wizards and on the road against LA. We are not gonna be able to match there firepower without Crawford in full blown attack mode .

So what? JJ wasn't in foul trouble and has no history of foul trouble. If the game did go into overtime i would rather not have a worn out JJ that has already played 39 minutes.

Fouling out is no different from getting benched for the rest of the game. Basically Crawford fouled out of the game when he picked up his 4th foul. Woody seems to think fouls are like carryover minutes that can be saved for the next game. If a player fouls out Hawks aren't going to get a 5 point penalty against them which is what Woody seems to think.

thats true and also Crawford is a veteran you have to believe that he knows how to avoid that 5th in closing out games .

Its not that big of a deal on opening night but I have yet to see any real plan put into place to integrate Crawford into what we do. We have him out there setting up Joe smith and Zaza lol . That wont work when we play the the top teams . We should not fall into a lull while playing the weaker teams . When Crawford comes in off that bench we should be running sets 9-10 straight times for him forcing that opposing coach to make adjustments . He came in against Jones and Watson and just passed the ball around . Thats not why hes here and we should be using these games to prepare for the top teams because we are going to need that scoring when we play teams with good inside presences.

We have Orl,Por,NO twice,lakers,Bos and thats in the first month. We cant afford to wait 2 months while Crawford tries and proves he can pass and Woody shouldnt let him do it either . Make Teague run the second unit and put in some sets for Crawford early .Its still early so Im not really worried but I just have a feeling that these early games this year will be very important come playoff positioning time .

I've said it before and I will say it again, I believe there is a 33% chance Joe comes back with us. He needed to call this team out, it's not THAT we lost, it is HOW we lost. Period. Everyone was garbage and Joe knows we can't play like that in the regular season. If this is Joe trying to be a more vocal leader, great...but it has been a long time coming.

I think the problem many have is that Vince handed Joe his lunch right from the start. Where is that leadership on the court when someone like Vince is going nutz ? How about he throw a hard foul or something .He was so laid back he shouldve just stayed on the team bus and snoozed . Where is Joe taking a charge, going hard for a block,or diving for a loose ball ? The young guys have followed his lead of laid backness and now hes shocked ? Say it aint so Joe ..

He hasn't shoot well in 2 years. Age is creeping up on him really quick/ Yeah, he doesn't get those wide open shots that he got in Phx... But Wade and other number 1 options don't get those open shots either. JJ was missing shots even when he was fairly open last year.

thats true but also if you put Crawford in the lineup with Wade then Wade would go out of his way to make sure Crawford felt comfortable and was involved even passing up shots himself .

After watching the game again (yes I know ) :beathorse: the one thing that stood out to me is that Bibby and Joe know what Crawford is capable of and yet when Crawford was on the court with them they pretty much ignored him the entire time even though Joe was having an off night. For this team to do BIG things everyone must realize that when Joe is off its in all of our best interests to establish Crawford as quickly as possible . I noticed that Woody gave Crawford some extended minutes with both Bibby and Joe and I dont think he attempted a shot .

So something has to give we have to know who to go to and when . I was thinking to myself Joe can create a shot for someone why not try and set Crawford up for some looks thats what wade ,Kobe or or any of the elite talents would do find the guys brought in to help them and give them the opportunity. Joe didnt have to shoot that poorly he couldve created opportunities for Crawford who doesnt really need to have someone create for him but by doing so Joe sends a message to everyone .

All of you saying this is just pre season and it doesn't mean anything are in denial. This is the same stuff that happened last year in the playoffs on the road. No good team loses by 40, pre season or pickup game. That is downright embarrassing and you have no pride if you don't take a beating like that personal.

You can't compare this to an NFL game where the starters play 2 plays and are taken out. The regulars played the majority of that first half and the 3rd quarter. This is the same old story with the same old ending.

You would have a point if they were getting blown out every game but they finished the preseason 5-2 . Every team in the league is spotted a game or two and one loss doesnt wipe out the entire preseason .

The loss didnt bother me but I wanted to see some passion and intensity at least early on from the starters especially that front line . I wanted to see who on that frontline was ready to take that next step . But all 3 looked like boys among men out there tonight and thats a bit disheartening but again its only preseason they have earned that much and they have next week to reward that trust .

I really underestimated Ryan Anderson (or Kevin Anderson accourding to the game announcer). He looks like he can be their next Turkaglu over time, maybe not as a ball handler, but dude can shoot and score in the post, plus he's tall....and white, (lol j/k.)

Seriously, how painful was it to see this cat killing us and we couldnt get any of our starters to slow him down.

What I do not like about our team is that there is such a sense of entitlement with the starters, but they tend to come out flat alot of nights. And when this happens Woody is slow to replace them. This year, our bench is deep and talented and in a game like this where Joe was flat, and Bibby was getting abused, why did it take for us to be down big before they got replaced. Woody has to pull the trigger sooner this year, if Bib and Joe aint cuttin it, either give Marv and Horf the ball or take them out the game and put Teague and Craw in. Even tonite with Teague shooting poorly, at least he could get into the paint, Bibby wont do that.

you are spot on . the entire point of having a bench is so that when the starters are not cutting it you go to your bench . As soon as he saw they were not ready to play he shouldve went hard with the reserves and not put a starter back in until the second half .

With increased expectations comes ....well INCREASED EXPECTATIONS and this team should be beyond starts like this now . If you cant get your intensity up in a road game against a division rival and conference champ then how can you seriously talk about taking the next step.

Come next week If Im Woody I better see some intensity and passion or Im going to bench early and often .

If its one thing I know about NBA basketball to be 100% fact is that preseason means NOTHING.

So Joe didnt feel like playing on the second night of a road back to back ... well it sucks for fans but hey he doesnt have to he just needs to show up next week . I do think that this was crap orchestrated just so the NBA could the magic on espn .,