thesheedera

I don't have much confidence in Woodson, but I voted "yes" because I don't think getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs is much of a reach or this team.

This roster has been pretty stable, and we'll have the benefit of Bibby playing from the beginning of the season, Law with a year under his belt, and the possibility of help from Speedy too.

Marvin, Smith and Horford have another year of experience and an offseason under their belts and JJ still has several prime years to go.

Losing Childress hurts, but the roster additions and my assumed improvements noted above will more than make up for his departure.

Last year we were a win away from the 2nd round, and as an 8 seed.

I don't EXPECT to make it to the 2nd round, but it is possible, in spite of who our coach is.

Best case scenario: 5 or 6 seed and a trip to the 2nd round.

Worst case: we finish right at or below .500 and miss the 8 seed in a new and improved eastern conference.

My expectation is somewhere in the middle - a few games over .500 and another decent showing (6 or 7 games) as a 7 or 8 seed.

I want an experienced winning coach asap for this team, but I have no confidence in the ASG making it happen any tme soon.

I should mention, just for kicks and giggles, that Morris' per40 line his last year at Kentucky was 23/11/3.

He can be an extremely productive player, if he can stay out of foul trouble.

Has AHF chimed in on Morris since we signed him?

Well, you have to look beyond the simplistic view of 'big, bad imperialist Russia invading tiny, plucky, democratic Georgia', because there's a whole lot more to the story than that. The reality is that Georgia pushed this confrontation. They are the ones who started it (by bombing South Ossetia), and so they pretty much invited a Russian counter-attack....though the scale of that counter-attack is what took everyone by surprise. No one expected the Russians to respond with that kind of ferocity. And RE: Georgian 'democracy', yes it is a democracy in name and Saakashvili is our fair-haired boy in the region, but he is also showing more and more signs of an authoritarian bent, and that is worrisome. And as harsh as the Russians have been on him, he's been equally as harsh on the South Ossetians and Abkhazians. It's a case of the big guys beating up on the smaller guys all over again. As Georgia does to S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, so does Russia do to Georgia....

And the United States played a large role too, infuriating and threatening Russia by promoting NATO membership for Georgia and the Ukraine so strongly. I mean that's trying to create a hostile and destabilizing environment right on Russia's doorstep, and thank god the Europeans tabled the motion for Georgian acceptance into NATO....else we might have had something *really* serious here, because legally NATO forces would have been required to come to the assistance of Georgia, and then you've got nuclear powers squaring off against one another on the battlefield. Not good, not good at all. And our backing of Georgia for NATO membership would be along the same lines as if the Warsaw Pact had tried to add Mexico or Canada into its sphere of influence and under its protective umbrella...something obviously just completely unacceptable. And the reason the Europeans were reluctant to see Georgia given NATO membership are clearly on display in Georgia's treatment of its breakaway republics....because Georgia is not stable enough nor is it nearly responsible enough to be given NATO membership and all the gravity, caution and care that that entails.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia sat back for a period of almost 20 years, but now they are asserting their influence as a great power once again. They are no longer a global superpower as we still are, but they are obviously no one to be provoked in any way, shape, or form- and the Georgians clearly provoked them. They were looking for a fight, and they got themselves one. It looks to be over now though, thankfully. Anyway, way off-topic. Sorry about that....

I have no idea if this is good balanced info or a serious spin job, but it sure as hell seemed informative to me. I haven't been paying much attention to this situation, so thanks for a great recap.

Now if it's just a huge spin job, go to hell you red bastard.

;)

I'm dense? You're the Tarheel fan (nice personal attack by the way).

F*uck the article. You're posts stated that Marvin was working out at the same time as the summer league teams. It clearly showed he wasn't actually on any of the teams. So if all these guys are playing with these teams and only Marv and May get added as a side-show what the f*ck does that tell you? I know it tells my dense a** he wasn't playing pick-up games with the rest of the crew, he was practicing with Sean May. Now if you have any LEGIT proof that dispels this common sense, please feel free to share. So far you haven't proven otherwise.

Given Marv's track record, plus your post (that's right, you hurt your own cause) I'd say you shouldn't be taking stabs at other's IQ.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/h...liams_news.html

Jesus,

You really can't read can you? I said IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF he failed to mention other players. Then I explained that I didn't believe there were other players to mention. (still following?). Therefore I don't believe Marvin was dumb enough to not mention them, they simply weren't there.

Then you go and say this...

I never called the man "dense". Not even once. Big difference in saying IF Marvin did something, and then admitting Marvin didn't do it.

Again, for the record, Marvin is a very smart individual. VERY smart. Smart enough to know he would need to mention other players IF he had actually played with them. I even said this much. As, Marvin being smart enough to do this would have HELPED my argument. Marvin being dumb enough to not do it would have HURT my argument.

Please tell me you understand now.

You're still dense. The article was about Sean May being back at school. If the article were a critical piece on Marvin Williams' offseason workouts, then yes, Marvin should defend himself by listing what he's working on and who he's working with.

In an article like this one, there's no reason for him to get into the specifics of his summer workouts. The question you're assuming he had no answer for was never asked! If the reporter did ask questions about Marvin's summer workouts, he sure didn't seem to fel the need to expound on it.

You and a few others are taking the absence of evidence to try and prove something. You might as well claim that Josh Smith has never worked on his ball handling because in the last article I read about him he never mentioned it.

See how that would be dense?

Do you think MJ improved more practicing at UNC or at Groves?

I think preparation leads to good play.

I think that's like asking "do you think I should choose a Ferrari or a Lamborghini" if I wanted to drive fast.

the thing is whatever he is or isn't doing during the offseason doesn't matter because it hasn't shown up on the floor. That's the main thing.

Well that's a completely different subject - different thread. I'm definitely disappointed with Marvin's career so far, and I've said it plenty of times. But this thread is about is what he's doing this summer and what he did last summer, and he's been getting railed for both for no good reason.

We should be damn glad he's in Chapel Hill. Far better there among people who know basketball rather than hanging out around Philips Arena with the ASG and our incompetent staff.

People complain about Marvins offseaon because they are not satisfied with what they see from him on the floor. You think Hornets fans would be complaining if CP3 were taking courses? What about Jazz fans about Deron Williams? No they wouldn't. With Marvin having holes in his game and needing to work on coordination he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt for not focusing on basketball.

People give Al the benefit of the doubt because they were impressed by his play on the court. Marvin leaves alot to be desired in many fans mind.

Just a question, why isn't Marvin on one of those rosters?

Does he just join a team when he is ready to play?

Is his classes making him miss out on games?

The problem is that no one here has any evidence that Marvin ISN'T focusing on basketball! There are 24 hours in a day. You CAN take a few classes AND work on your game. College athletes do it constantly, and many have far better work ethic than professional players.

Many pro athletes run full time business on the side. You simply can't be working on basketball 100% of the minutes you're awake, because you'd literally kill yourself.

He wasn't on one of those rosters becuase that random internet poster didn't have all the rosters handy, and that particular summer league has players that come and go depending on their summer schedules. I can't find the link, but there were a total of 8 teams in that league, and one of the rosters had 17 guys on it. I have no idea how many agmes any of those guys listed actually played in or will play in.

It was just one example of what happens in the RTP community in the offseason, because apparently many posters seem to think they're all just playing playstation and watching spongebob.

Here's a clip from one of the pickup games in the Dean Dome. No Marvin for this one, but it's a pretty good example of the kind of games that take place throughout the day, every day in gyms all around the RTP. This one is for UNC campers, but from what I understand many of the games have refs to keep things balanced, and hell, refs gotta practice too.

http://gallery.mac.com/benlora#100341

Stackhouse and Jawad Williams among the former players in this game. I think Jackie Manuel is out there as well.

Not excatly And1

:clap:

Pickup games involve:

1) No defense

2) Layup drills

3) Trying out And1 Moves

You sure about that? You think Antawn's just working on his And1 moves too? Ironic that you mentioned him, look where his name lands in this post from inside carolina about one of the summer leagues:

"Team Rosters

Nolan Smith, Olek Czyz and Kyle Singler are playing on Barnstomers with Sean Dockery, Rasheed Wallace, Gerald Wallace and Shammond Williams.

Miles Plumlee and Jon Scheyer are playing with Raymond Felton, Sean May and PJ Tucker on Team Felton.

Lance Thomas is playing with Jerry Stackhouse, Reggie Bullock, Josh Howard, Danny Green and John Wall on the Regulators.

Elliot Williams and Steve Johnson are playing for E-Net with Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington and Josh Powell.

Other competition includes Antawn Jamison, Marvin Williams, Ed Cota, David West. David Noel, Deon Thompson and Gavin Grant.

Admission is free. There are games tonight, July 15th, 17th, 22nd, 24th, 29th. 31st and August 5th from 6 to 10 PM. Playoffs run from August 9th to August 11th. Every team plays every time they play. The games are at NCCU's main McClendon-McDougald gym.

So stop complaining that there are no pickup reports and get your butts over there to make your own reports!"

How do I know? Marvin TOLD us.

Marvin told us he was playing pick up games until a Hawks's assistant told him to "work on his game".

Not true. You don't know WHEN that conversation took place, you don't know who contacted who, and you left out that he also said he was working out in the morning, pickup games later in the day.

That may have been a week into the offseason, or 3 months. YOU DON'T KNOW!

The guy wasn't even working out last summer until Mr. Fizdale approached him about it (as I've read Walter state many times).

Tell me the truth:

With what you've read:

1) Marvin working out with Sean May

2) Working toward a degree

Do you see him averaging over 15 or 16 ppg this year? Do you see him improving his numbers at all besides the fact that Chillz is gone so they may naturally go up a point or two?

Okay, so you ARE as f@#$king dense as Diesel...AND Walter. Congrats.

You do realize that you're taking something at face value that is from Walter taking a quote from one article out of context.

You don't know when Marvin and Fizdale first talked, and you don't know who contacted who.

You don't know who Marvin's working out with, or what he's working on, or how vigorously, but becuase one article (that was primarily about May becuase he's a local pro that the Bobcats have had a lot riding on) only mentions Sean May, you know for a fact that May's the only guy Marvin's had any interaction with all summer.

Funny that when Childress went to China, no one was dumb enough to assume that ALL he did during that offseason was sight see.

Funny that when Horford goes back to school everyone assumes he's working his tail off all summer.

Admit that your bias is preventing you to be rational about what Marvin's up to this summer and last summer.

No I don't.

I read it already.

Marvin makes good money. Maybe him getting the AA degree has some intrinsic value to him, but the guy isn't strong physically and wasn't impressive at all this past year.

If he was taking classes and working out with a basketball player who was actually relevant (like Antwawn Jamison), maybe I'd change my mind, but to work out with a scrub like Sean May and take classes (dude isn't even close to finishing his degree. 71/120 hours means he has at least 3 more years at this rate because he probably got about 30 his 1st year and he probably gets about 15 hours or so a summer) is not the way to go.

On the other hand, Josh Smith worked out with Olajuwon and Calvin Murphy last summer.

While Smoove's intellectual prowess isn't the highest-regarded, to work with players of that caliber is a manifestation of his ambition and strive to become better. Even though I didn't see a Dream Shake or good shooting at all, at least Smoove had the initiative to go out and do this

And how do you know that May is the only guy he's working out with?

If you and Diesel are so sure of his summer workout schedule, please be so kind as to share it with us.

There are dozens and dozens of guys working on their games in the RTP right now. And you assume that Marvin's ONLY working with May?

Because the article didn't mention anyone else?

You're as f*@%ing dense as Diesel.

I'm not the biggest Marv fan, I'd like to see him traded. I also know that a big reason this is a topic is because trace wanted to hear D/Walt take any opportunity to moan about Marv (I also like how they both allowed the suspense to build as most of the posts were just asking where they were).

Still though, this is ridiculous. No one, not Kobe, not Duncan, not even Jordan spent every minute of their offseason training. Marv is training with other pros, in a place where great pros have been known to do offseason training, while taking classes.

On a AA studies degree, I know an MD at Goldman Sachs who has a BA in AA studies so I wouldn't argue there is no money in it. There is money in anything if thats what you are looking for but hopefully Marv is taking that track because he believes it will give him more perspective and a greater understanding of where he came from - not sure how that makes him unprofessional.

In terms of Marv doing core training, pilates, yoga, whatever. There is no one in the league that needs that stuff more than Marv... probably no one in the history of the league. Maybe if he had better core strength he would be able to square up on the move instead of having to be standing perfectly still while catching the ball to hit his jumper.

You can always tell when the likes of Deisel and Walt realize their arguments/complaints are absurd.

It's not like these guys haven't been on the board ALL DAY LONG, they just don't have any other ways to spin their nonsense.

A few other players off the top of my head who spent summers in Chapel Hill working on their games, whether they were working towards graduation or not:

Michael Jordan - took classes

James Worthy - took classes

Jerry Stackhouse - took classes

Hubert Davis - probably not - graduated before NBA

George Lynch - same as Hubert

Eric Montross - same

Antawn Jamison - took classes

Sam Perkins - not sure

Brad Daugherty - not sure

JR Reid - took classes

Sheed - pretty sure no classes

...and dozens and dozens more. Many of these guys have brought friends/NBA teammates with them to add to the critical mass. Added to that are countless Duke alumni (that article mentioned Boozer and Dunleavy)and friends/teammates that live in or around the research triangle during the summer. Wake and NC State alumni too, although some of them may be sleeping as far away as 30-45 minutes.

Marvin and May are also spending some time participating in Stackhouse's summer pro-am basketball league, with other slackers such as current/former NBA players Stack, Sheed, Josh Howard, David West, May, Felton, PJ Tucker, Shammond Williams, Ronald Murray, David Noel, Ricky Clemons, Jawad Williams, Clint Deas, and Josh Powell.

The amatuers include about 50% of the current rosters from UNC and Duke, as well as some from Wake, NC State and other local programs, and even a few of the best high school prospects in the region.

While in Chapel Hill, former UNC players have access to such horrible basketball minds as Roy Williams and his staff, Dean Smith, and Bill Guthridge. Not to mention that alumni have complete access to the UNC strength and conditioning facilities and staff, which are probably better (and certainly better funded) than what the Hawks provide. Throughout the spring and summer, more unqualified basketball people are available to meet/talk/work with while they come in and out of town such as Larry Brown, Michael Jordan, George Karl, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Ford.

The Research Triangle region is one of the world's great epicenters of the international basketball community. I'm willing to bet the only place that has as good or a better collection of talent, knowledge and experience during the offseason months is whatever spot that Team USA happens to be in at that moment.

Marvin is exactly where he should be. It's the place where he can best improve his basketball skills, physical condition, education, and prepare himself for his presnt and future in the NBA, as well as his future after basketball.

Again - this is only a partial list of guys who are either currently or have in the past spent their summers in the RTP working on playing/coaching basketball:

Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Jerry Stackhouse, Hubert Davis, George Lynch, Eric Montross, Antawn Jamison, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, JR Reid, Sheed, Boozer, Dunleavy, Josh Howard, David West, Sean May, Felton, PJ Tucker, Shammond Williams, Ronald Murray, David Noel, Ricky Clemons, Jawad Williams, Clint Deas, Josh Powell, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, and Bill Guthridge, Larry Brown, Michael Jordan, George Karl, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Ford...

And that's from the top of my head, the article this thread started, and Stackhouse's summer league rosters. That's probably not more than 5% of the successful basketball players/coaches who have spent their summers in the RTP (Chapel Hill, Raleigh, and Durham) and Winston Salem over the years.

I love how Walt and Diesel spin the idea of spending a summer in Chapel Hill into something not related to basketball. Chapel Hill IS BASKETBALL!!!!!!

World class facilities

World class competition (not referring just to Stack's summer league - that's a mishmash of both world class and lower level talent - there are regular games in dozens of gyms throughout the area in the summer, including daily games in Chapel Hill with former, current and future Heels as well as friends from other programs or NBA teams)

World class expertise to work with and learn from

UNC basketball is a family (as are many other programs of course). Guys return to Chapel Hill. They work together, they help each other get better, they look out for each other. Some work the camps, some are in school, some are just there to take advantage of the citical mass. But they're all WORKING. The competition can be fierce - there are scuffles and scraps - this ain't just some guys playing horse.

The pickup and summer league games are only part of the equation. These guys are putting in time eevry day to improve their games so they can make a living.

The best that ever played thought it was a good place to spend more than a few summers (and I saw him there many times as a kid, visiting family who lived there), so I see no reason why it wouldn't be a good place for Marvin too!

Corrected

A few other players off the top of my head who spent summers in Chapel Hill working on their games, whether they were working towards graduation or not:

Michael Jordan - took classes

James Worthy - took classes

Jerry Stackhouse - took classes

Hubert Davis - probably not - graduated before NBA

George Lynch - same as Hubert

Eric Montross - same

Antawn Jamison - took classes

Sam Perkins - not sure

Brad Daugherty - not sure

JR Reid - took classes

Sheed - pretty sure no classes

...and dozens and dozens more. Many of these guys have brought friends/NBA teammates with them to add to the critical mass. Added to that are countless Duke alumni (that article mentioned Boozer and Dunleavy)and friends/teammates that live in or around the research triangle during the summer. Wake and NC State alumni too, although some of them may be sleeping as far away as 30-45 minutes.

Marvin and May are also spending some time participating in Stackhouse's summer pro-am basketball league, with other slackers such as current/former NBA players Stack, Sheed, Josh Howard, David West, May, Felton, PJ Tucker, Shammond Williams, Ronald Murray, David Noel, Ricky Clemons, Jawad Williams, Clint Deas, and Josh Powell.

The amatuers include about 50% of the current rosters from UNC and Duke, as well as some from Wake, NC State and other local programs, and even a few of the best high school prospects in the region.

While in Chapel Hill, former UNC players have access to such horrible basketball minds as Roy Williams and his staff, Dean Smith, and Bill Guthridge. Not to mention that alumni have complete access to the UNC strength and conditioning facilities and staff, which are probably better (and certainly better funded) than what the Hawks provide. Throughout the spring and summer, more unqualified basketball people are available to meet/talk/work with while they come in and out of town such as Larry Brown, Michael Jordan, George Karl, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Ford.

The Research Triangle region is one of the world's great epicenters of the international basketball community. I'm willing to bet the only place that has as good or a better collection of talent, knowledge and experience during the offseason months is whatever spot that Team USA happens to be in at that moment.

Marvin is exactly where he should be. It's the place where he can best improve his basketball skills, physical condition, education, and prepare himself for his presnt and future in the NBA, as well as his future after basketball.

Thanks for all the responses - sounds like status quo in AtlantaSpiritLLCland. Do just enough to get people's hopes up, then let the momentum fizzle with inaction and incompetency.

I've been unable to really keep up with the last week of news on Smith. I don't care about every last detail, but what's the big picture?

What's happened on the Smith front since the Childress announcement?

What are the chances we come to a mutually beneficial agreement and keep him?

Is a sign and trade more likely than keeping him?

Are you all excited about the possibilities of a sign and trade, or are we looking at a doomsday scenario?

I'm surprised that more posters here wouldn't want Felton. I like Acie and think he has potential, but I haven't seen anything that tells me he'll be better than Felton. Felton's 3 years into his development as a PG, and most PG's take some time.

He's been hindered by the fact that his team has been horrible, their coaching is as bad or worse than ours, and he's played a ton of games at the 2 spot - way out of position for him. That has hurt his FG% cause he's been matched up for stretches against bigger guards, and he;s been forced into a role that requires him perfomr as a jumpshooter, which ahs never been his game. He's not a great shooter by any menas, but he is a very good "scorer" from the 1 spot. He's also an up tempo player in a system that's been more half court, and will only become more limited to the half court with LB in the mix.

Bickerstaff and Jordan seem convinced he's more of a combo than a PG, yet when he gets to play exclusively at the 1, he plays much better and their team performs better. He finished the season #7 in the NBA in apg this year, that certainly makes a decent case that he should be used only as a PG. Deron and Paul have been better, and I don't doubt that they will continue to be better, but those guys are at a very elite level already.

I also admit that Calderon looks like a better prospect than Felton at this point, but I want to see him run a team on his own before I'm fully convinced.

What other young PGs are out there that have performed as well as Felton or retain as much potential as he does? Rondo? Very possibly, complete freak of nature and seems to hit timely jumpers despite the knock on his ability to shoot. BUt how much of his success was playing with such a loaded bunch of vets?

Tony Parker's had the benefit of playing with great players, but I think he's pretty darn legit too.

Kidd and Nash probably don't have much in the tank. Billups has more but probably not by much. I don't really consider Baron or Gilbert true PGs, but they're obviously on a level above Felton.

I like Law, but Felton's closer to a known quantity as a young PG and after watching him display excellent leadership qualities in college I don't think he's lacking in the intangibles department. Why not give Felton a shot and let Law try to beat him out as he gains experience?

If we want to be up tempo he could be a great fit. If he goes to the Knicks be prepared to change your opinion on him after seeing what he could do in D'Antoni's system.

Would you rather he buy a small jet and give money "to the arabs" that way instead?

Funny you mention this, Marvin actually played soccer (gaolie) in highschool for a season, maybe 2.

Definitely Cleveland. They are championship quality. They don't have time to develop. Everybody is talkin the loss of Lebron to NY.

Cleveland is over the cap. You can't send them Mike Bibby's huge deal for even one season without having to take back a huge chunk of salary. Bibby is earning MORE than Lebron James at present.

Even if they cut salary by NOT resigning anyone whose contract is expiring, I'm pretty sure that there's only three guys who have enough money on the books to help make room to take on Bibby's deal-Ilgauskus, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak. They're not going to give us any of those guys AND a first round pick to get Bibby's expiring contract.

I can't even begin to draw up a trade with Cleveland that deals with the salary issues and still nets us a first round draft pick.

No I didn't say Pick for Player. I said that Cleveland may deal their pick.

As far as a trade:

Marvin Williams, Speedy Claxton, and Mike Bibby for Wally Z, Eric Snow, Damon Jones, and a 1st.

Before you go balking... We get a 1st rounder... and 3 ending contracts. Plus both Wally and Jones can shoot!

They get a Young Marvin and they get to try Bibby out with James for a championship run.

I didn't know you thought Marvin's age was still relevant.

How can every little thing not be their fault? They are responsible for everything that's happened, good and bad, to this franchise since they came on board.

Who else woud be at fault?

Every player, coach and front office employee is under the umbrella of this ownership group. They are first and last.

That's the problem with being a one paper town.

Bust - no

Disappointment - so far, yes

Compared to Paul and Deron - just plain silly how far off most were on both of those guys, kudos to anyone who truly saw this coming. Paul, Deron and Felton were neck and neck and neck, and Felton has performed about to the level I think most would have reasonably expected of all three by now. Deron has been sensational and Paul has been otherworldly.

Compared to Bogut - seems about right that Bogut was taken over him by a slight margin, separated almost entirely by position. I'm not sure if I would trade Marvin to get Bogut today.

Compared to other #2 picks - he's worse than most #2s, but he's better than several, and about the same as several as well.

We f-ed up the pick BIG time in hindsight because the Paul and Deron picks are so obvious now. Had Paul and Deron developed at the same rate as Felton, in a situation as difficult as Felton's (miserable franchise, forced to play out of position along with Brevin for too long) has been, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd be wondering if we still need to go get a PG of the future.

Marvin looked awesome at the beginning of the season, but after that he was extremely inconsistent and the season on the whole is a bit disturbing for me as a Marvin fan.

He's gotta come back on a serious mission next season, otherwise I'll get in the camp that both the Hawks AND Marvin would be better off by moving him elsewhere.