bumpyphish1

Hawks should definitely claim this Jackson kid off waivers and sign him for 3-4 years.  Looks like a really nice cheap backup who could be ready in a year.  Delaney walks then, and we have Schröder, Jackson, and Bembry at less cost.  Go sign KCP next offseason if he's commanding around this offseason's  value.  Use every trade asset to get a superstar player or elite center over the course of a year.  We're building a good little stockpile of players and assets.  Cheap, good young players on good deals.  Harris is only on the market because the Celtics have ridiculous talent/assets and they should have made another deal before now.  Jackson looks like he has the makings to be a fine backup in a year on a rookie deal.   

Bembry is likely looked at as our 3rd PG for the future.  We are looking for a Delaney replacement.  Someone who can shoot, I guess.  Donno if you want similar style as Dennis or more of a "shoot first" guy.  Someone who can defend.  Someone not expensive.

On 7/12/2017 at 0:35 AM, SalvorMallow said:

Signed by the lakers.

 

1 year 18 million.

So, he's an unRFA next season.  Sign him then and delay year one even better.  Wonder what he will command in a multi-year deal after a year in LA.  We'll have much more money to spend that we already do.  Could potentially sign KCP with room to add a true max player later, too.  

On 7/11/2017 at 2:11 AM, JTB said:

Yeah really upsets me that we aren't going to go after him probably 

Let's see our interest next season.

On 7/11/2017 at 10:31 AM, Watchman said:

KCP is gonna be kicking himself for passing on that 5 yr/$80 million deal. 

Doubt that.  After getting almost 1/4 of that five year deal, his next deal will be 4 yr/??M,  I bet get still gets upward of $15M/per next offseason.  Which would end up as 5 yr/$78M--that's conservative....and he still has power over his long term destination.  (Come home.)

On 7/11/2017 at 1:52 PM, sturt said:

I haven't totally given up on the idea that

(a) Baze can get back to an upward trajectory (Bryce Harper called and reminded me that newly married athletes seem to improve over the season before their wedding)... and/or

(b) Schlenk will find a way to deal Baze.

Regardless, if you're looking for offense from your 5, you're going to have to go get Mason, who does most things better than most 5s, except that he's another one who's horrendous at shooting FTs.

Agreed.  We need to try to make Bazemore look good.  Develop young players and base our play about putting Bazemore in position to succeed.

On 7/12/2017 at 2:44 AM, SalvorMallow said:

Too bad only like 5 teams have cap space next year. 

What five?  I'm sure we are one?

On 7/12/2017 at 9:30 AM, Sothron said:

So I guess I wasn't so "deluded" after all that he shouldn't get a max deal. 1 year for 18 million is pretty sucky compared to what he turned down.

Never said he would get a max deal or deserved one.  He's worth more than Tim Hardaway.  

On 7/12/2017 at 10:50 AM, MaceCase said:

Heh, someday KCP will finally get a play run for him.  Amirite, Bumpy?

 

 

 

Ya know, him deferring his longterm contract for a year really just bother me at all.  That's right on the Hawks' timeline...a one year deferment.  We can look at signing him next offseason, after trading Bazemore, ideally.

2 hours ago, AHF said:

There is zero reason to take up any cap room in future years where we are hoping to be in a position to try to squeeze every dime to max multiple stars in the same offseason.  Pissing those dollars away so we can spend more this year when we don't care about competing is crazy.  

Exactly.  Get out all the $H*T you possibly can this season since it's a sacrificed season.   

 

1 hour ago, JTB said:

Everyone that's worried about kcp offensive efficiency let me just leave this here :

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html

 

ya know George wasn't very efficient either on his way to becoming a two way star. We could be missing out on something here! Who's to say bud and staff can't fix this mans offense??? 

That's even better.  I said it before, KCP is younger than Hardaway and had better shooting numbers last year on a team that ran no plays for him than Hardaway had on the Knicks the last season he was there before we traded for him.  Folks who say "KCP can't shoot" are clueless.  I watched the kid for two years at UGA and hardly missed a game.  The notion he is a poor shooter is laughable.  I'm not saying he will ever be Steph, but could he work up to shooting around 40% from 3?  Hell yeah.  

 

5 hours ago, Sothron said:

I wouldn't pay KCP more than 10 million a year and even then I'd have to be at least mildly drunk to put that much money into an average NBA starter.

It's been revealing this summer to see that many of this discussion board's most tenured, ardent posters are among the most clueless.  Probably some logical explanation for it.  I already knew a few regulars were joke posters but I hadn't pegged you yet, @Sothron.  I guess even geniuses are way wrong from time to time, so maybe that's what's going on here.  If your words are to be taken literally, the ideas expressed here are laughable.  They are not the comments of a serious person.

Just now, Alex said:

Okay thanks.  I thought we had cap room, but then I read somewhere on here that the Hawks had no wiggle room and that's why Schlenk couldnt sign anyone. Thanks to @sturt as well.  

Don't stretch his contract.  Pay it off now so we have more cap room in the future.  This year is a wash.  Pretty sure we could not stretch his contract and still afford to sign KCP and fill out the roster.  Maybe we'd have to trade Belinelli to do it, and he'd be a more valuable trade asset at the deadline, but absolutely do not stretch his contract.  Leave all the $h*t on the floor this season.

My question is....how many folks minimum do you have to have under contract?  We've got 11 now by my math.  I'd think you gotta have like 13-ish.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/07/nba-teams-with-cap-room-remaining.html

3 hours ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

I think KCP is in the same tier of player that TH Jr is in... He's only worth maybe what we were willing to pay TH Jr.  He's not a guy that's going to take us to the next level, so he isn't worth even a second look at.  I'm off the treadmill and have a front row seat on the tank train.

My God some fans are so clueless.  Whatever we were willing to pay Tim is a maybe?  You are fricking out of your mind.  KCP is a better player now, younger, and has more room to improve than Hardaway.  This statement is foolish,  Bottom line.  

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

No way we should give KCP a max deal. We don't need a max salary on an average NBA starter. Smh.

#TrustTheRebuild

Why are we talking about max deals.  He isn't gonna get one.  But, if we could sign him for close to what the Knicks gave Hardaway, we would and WILL.  I'm very happy BudSchlenk are making these decisions and not some of the knuckleheads on this site.

"Trust the rebuild."  I do trust their mini-rebuild.  You rebuild around young players.  KCP is gonna end up being a bargain relative to what he was projected to get and probably what he is worth.  I don't think Schlenk will screw this up.  If we have to give Belinelli away for cash to do it, so be it.

6 hours ago, capstone21 said:

We brought Tim here on a contract that was like a million dollars and he spent most of the season in the dleage being humbled and also changing his mechanics and mentality.  We were not betting a max contract on him that it would work.  I don't think either guy is worth that kind of contract

That's fine.  You are dead wrong about KCP.  If we could get him for what Tim signed for with NYK, that would be highway robbery.

6 hours ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Wait a minute... Millsap isn't worth 30M but somehow KCP is worth 22M? Especially considering we now have a gaping hole at PF and a surplus of SG-types. Inneficient ones ar that, but SGs nonetheless.

Hmm... yeah.

 

Millsap was aging and if not next year, the year after will begin to decline.  KCP is 24 years-old and very much growing as a player.  Really oversimplified and really a pretty flawed thought process there, guy.

5 hours ago, mrhonline said:

Seriously.  How long is it going to take for Hawks' fans to realize this is a lost season?

I hope you aren't referring to me?  This season is definitely a lost season.  I think this season is the only season the org sees as lost though.  Signing KCP for a four year deal is not mutually exclusive with this being a "lost" or "developmental" season.  In fact, we could front-load the contract.  We'd have he, Dennis, and Collins for three more years starting in 2018-19 with Bembry and Prince having two remaining years.  I think between now and next summer, you're gonna see some serious trades from the Hawks to try to add a big name center.

13 hours ago, hazer said:

They're not gonna max anybody right now. 

First, I'd probably pay KCP a max (his max) if that's what it took to ink him, but it appears it won't.  He may have even been willing to to take slightly less than his max to play close to home, but you know the max he is eligible for is something like $21.6M/year or something, right?  We aren't talking about Steph Curry max money here, and I think BudSchlenk would sign a young player to a max or damn close even if they knew year one was not gonna be a playoff team (they were willing to do so for Noel before Dirk renegotiated to clear room for Noel and others.)  The Hawks are aiming to have one "developmental" season and then be competitive as soon as 2018-19.  They are gonna want a young team that is playoff-caliber by that year--Dennis will only have two years left on his contract after that season, so they ain't gonna wait long.  If I read another NBA writer say the Hawks are in "full scale rebuild mode" again, I'll puke.  If you think that's what we are doing, you are wrong.  We have three firsts next season, I'd be surprised if we draft more than one player in the first round--3 2018 and 2 2019 firsts and Belinelli will be used between now and the next draft to the aim of having a young team in place in 18-19 that is "close to complete" from a personnel standpoint where players like Dennis and Prince are scratching the beginning of their best years.  KCP would be in that class, too, were he a Hawk. 

12 hours ago, sturt said:

Could yet be surprised, but the money appears to be drying up, and I just don't think anyone, us included, are going to max him.

Having said that, I can imagine us being one of the finalists for his services.

My own conjecture is Schlenk is going to want to come out of this off-season with one more long-term horse than he already has in his stable.

KCP conceivably could be that.

Only player I believe who possibly could be maxed is Noel, and that, only if someone seriously projects him as Tyson Chandler.

$25m is a fair number as long as you think he's going to play at that level and be a regular difference maker within a couple of years.

And he, of course, also would qualify as that one more long-term horse.

 

This is the most level-headed post in this thread.  I'm not sure if we'd be willing to pay KCP, but there's no doubt we are gonna have an offer for him that is as high or higher than what Tim got.  I donno if the Hawks brass was gonna let Tim move on regardless, but before they had to decide, news that Detroit renounced their qualifying offer to KCP made passing on Tim an EASY decision.

11 hours ago, sturt said:

I don't think the max is really a consideration at this point.

Years? I think it all depends on how Schlenk projects him. If he's just a guy, I think you're right, it will be a short-term deal. But at that age, and if Schlenk projects him to be a horse, I have little doubt Schlenk will go 4 years.

I tend to think you are right.  I don't think KCP will end up with the max but if he signs a 4-year deal, it will be close to it, and that won't be overpaying him.

4 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Would really appreciate an update on the cap situation, but I think we have at least $17M if not more.

I'd like an update on the cap situation as well.  I don't know exactly, but I am pretty sure the cap isn't gonna prevent us from being able what it takes to pay KCP whatever he takes.  Worst case we trade Belinelli for peanuts and then we can easily afford KCP...and even potentially frontload his contract to help in future year's with cap space.

I don't post or even read here very often but I decided to check in.  I'm surprised this is all KCP has been discussed.  Let me fill in some holes and clarify a few comments, mostly related to KCP, but also related to the Hawks place as a franchise now....

On KCP (with special attention to @capstone21's comment that KCP "only shot .399 last year"):

     I don't think his defensive abilities are questioned, so we'll just assume everyone concurs he's a significantly better defender than Tim.  So, let's talk about his offense.  Aside from just the sort of natural conclusion you can draw from the fact he's been considered the best SG free agent by GM's around the league (and reporters have assumed KCP would get a max offer and Detroit was gonna match until they found this trade, which was miraculous considering KCP has hated being in Detroit,) KCP was always an afterthought in Detroit's offensive system. I read an interview with Van Gundy from last season praising KCP for just that. Said something to the effect that "despite us not ever running plays for him, he always finds a way to make an impact on the offense."  He shot 39.9% overall and 35% from 3 last season.  Getting to 35% from 3 isn't a bad thing. A few points higher, and you are looking at a more than acceptable number.  KCP is a full year younger than Hardaway, and (@capstone21 pay attention), when we traded for Hardaway, he was coming off of a season where he shot 38.9% from the field and 34% from 3.  It's amazing what good coaching, player development, and a modern offensive system will bring out in a player.  KCP was a high school McDonald's all-American, has character beyond reproach, and chose to play college ball at UGA because he wanted to be close to home.  I watched him for two years at UGA, and there is no doubt in my mind he can become a 38-40% shooter from range and will benefit from having an offense that promotes putting players in opportunity's to make plays--KCP was an afterthought in Detroit--most of his points came unfacilitated as they were content to play their offense centered around Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond, and Tobias Harris.  Despite that, KCP averaged the most minutes played per game on the team.  I think he's an ideal 3 and D fit with the better looks he'll get in Bud's offense, and I still think the Hawks will make a hard push for him because there's no logical reason I can see that they shouldn't.  I don't have "The Woj" or any national reporting, but my money is on him signing with Atlanta unless he wants to do the one-year LA thing (which I still find dubious.)  In short, in my opinion, if the Hawks don't make a strong push to sign KCP, Schlenk either thinks he can potentially sign him after he plays a year for the Lakers (they want him on a one-year deal because he shares Paul George's agent) or is missing a huge opportunity to get a potentially elite SG below his actual value based on the sheer luck how the free agency market/offseason has unfolded.

On the Hawks more broadly...

     The plan forward? Don't sign bad contracts, do everything you can to put us in position to make moves between now and 2018-19 to have a young, growing but highly competitive team on the court by that season, with or without KCP. We just re-signed Muscala to a 2-year $10M deal. Very flexible. Year one doesn't matter, the next, he's a cheap expiring you can use as a role player or in a trade. As of now, we have under contract for next season players (in order of most to least valuable):

Schröder ($15M) - 4 years
Prince ($2.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Collins ($2M) - 4 years (restricted)
Bembry (1.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Belinelli ($6M) - 1 year - will be traded by deadline
Tyler Dorsey (~$1.3M) - 2 years (quasi-restricted?)
Muscala ($5M) - 2 years
Diamond Stone ($1.2M) - 1 year (quasi-restricted?)
Malcolm Delaney ($2.5M) - 1 year 
Bazemore ($17M) - 3 years
Plumlee ($12M) - 3 years

.....eleven under contract, so, we can sign up to four more players---think you have to have a minimum of 13, so we have to sign at least two more. Hawks gonna do whatever they can to try to find a steal in FA, avoid bad contracts, and put themselves in the best position to possible to have tons of trade flexibility between now and the 2018-19 season. I suspect next offseason, they will move Plumlee, Bazemore or both...gonna have to give up something valuable to get a team to take on either of those crap contracts, but I suspect we'll move at least one of them after eating the contract for one year so that it will be *slightly* less crummy next offseason. No chance in hell we draft 3 guys in the first next season--I'll be surprised if we don't trade two of the picks. The extra 2018 firsts plus the two 2019 firsts, Belinelli, and possibly Muscala will be used in aggressive trade efforts over the next year. If they sign KCP, I'd say this has been close to a flawless offseason by the new GM and Bud.

PEACE, you Hawksquawkers.  Schlenk and Bud have ostensibly played their hand masterfully to this point.  Not aggressively pursuing KCP would be something they'd live to regret.  But, since they are bright guys, KCP is a local boy and likes home, I like our chances to do the best thing and bring the kid home.  Yee haw!

You can't sign and trade RFA's?  Really?  Do tell.  What was the whole Joe Johnson thing all about again?  Remind me.

33 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Agree in principle, but I do not believe you have to sacrifice a year to do it.

If you do not think Schlenk/Bud are willfully not prioritizing everything else over this coming season, you do not agree with me in principle.  Can you sign a "moneyball" player that doesn't take a year to develop?  Of course.  But, they'd prefer a cheaper/longer contract for someone who is better next year than a guy on a shorter and/or more costly deal that helps on the court this season.                                       

On 6/23/2017 at 11:16 PM, parfait said:

I was certainly someone who thought that Sign-and-Trades were a thing of the past. But there have been multiple mentions of Millsap S&T discussions in the press now, the most recent being a possible one with San Antonio involving LaMarcus Aldridge:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/clear-draft-carmelo-anthony-doesn-fit-knicks-plans-article-1.3271162

I'd be intrigued by a deal involving LMA, especially since his deal only has 2 years remaining. And, I'd be more confident in Travis Schlenk not being overly accommodating to San Antonio the way BudCox may have been.

Of course, there was the reference by Brian Windhorst to S&T discussions with Phoenix, Sacramento, and Denver.

This is of course speculation, but I would point to two small clues that might hint at a possible Millsap S&T brewing:

1) The absence of UDFA contracts signed despite having so many roster spots open. We haven't even signed a dinky two-way deal. I think that Schlenk is unable to offer anything more than a Summer League invite due to an impending roster influx.

2) This one is even more of a stretch, but I also find it very weird, and so does Peachtree Hoops, that Minnesota drafted Justin Patton despite having KAT and Gorgui Dieng already. And Patton was a guy that we looked at very closely.

I think that contending teams that covet Millsap, such as San Antonio, Denver, Minnesota, and Houston, lack the cap space to sign him outright, and Millsap knows that. And he doesn't want to be stuck in Phoenix or Sacramento. So he is willing to work with the Hawks to get the 4 year max and land with one of those Western Conference contenders.

Part of this is clearly wishful thinking on my part. But if Schlenk can pull off any sort of S&T that nets us assets for Millsap, then he will have done what seemed an impossibility just a week ago.

*SHARP POSTER ALERT*

Houston and Denver are the most realistic landing spots for a sign and trade.  I think Houston is most-likely.  Folks also cannot expect a huge return for essentially clearing a few $M in cap space.  If we get avoid a bad contract and either get a young player or 2018 first in the deal, that would be good.  We don't want Akldrige.  That's silly.  I don't doubt Millsap would be great for the Spurs but Aldridge is fool's gold, and even best case, he doesn't fit our current agenda being on a two year contract, the first year of which we are not served well by him making us a better team.

Denver is second most likely.  Faried would be fantastic.  Chandler's contract is too high for my taste, but we have to take on more than Faried's salary and eating Wilson might be the cost of getting a real helper like Faried.  Maybe Faried and Arthur would be enough.   

On 6/24/2017 at 8:44 AM, JTB said:

Faried is the most intriguing as he's a hell of a rebounder! Chandler overall game is good and Arthur is at the least decent off the bench but with all that said....my guy from Denver is Gary Harris! Find a way to include him or add him & take someone else out...whatever has to be done...and the trade is perfect.

Dream on with Gary Harris.  We are merely helping a team clear a few $M in cap space.  FFS.

On 6/25/2017 at 8:13 PM, hazer said:

Hawks have Bellini, Bembry, Dorsey, and Gaze (if not traded) at SG. I'm assuming they don't match THJr at higher than $15mill/yr.

Hawks don't "have Belinelli"--his only value to us is as a trade piece.  Yeah, he'll be in the rotation if he sticks around until the deadline but his tradeable contract was the best thing we got--only thing we got--for trading Howard.  Dorsey is definitely a guy suited to come off the bench.  Sort of a combo guard and a marksman-type.  Bazemore and Bembry as much SF's as they are SG's.  So, really, you need to look at it like:  for SG/SF, we have Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, and Dorsey.  I think Hardaway is likely worth matching at around $16-17M per and I'd give him a four year deal without hesitating,

**WHY DOES NO ONE SEEM TO BE CONSIDERING THE IDEA HE COULD BE USED IN A SIGN AND TRADE???**  

On 6/25/2017 at 10:16 PM, parfait said:

I think we go maximum 3 years $36 million.

Or they push for a 2 year deal for like $30 million.

If he gets offers for 4 years and/or $15 million plus per year then Schenk says sayonara.

4 YEARS/$15M would be a fuggn bargain.  Schlenk would do a cart-wheel-and-sign in one motion if that was his offer sheet,

You "treat him" like someone you try to sign and trade to get something for.  If not, you let him walk and send him off well.  It's STUPID SIMPLE.

Almost no one you mentioned in the OP is a "moneyball" target.  DeMarre Carroll:  moneyball.  Bazemore: moneyball.  TH Jr.: moneyball-ish.

Moneyball = very undervalued + leads to a better team.  Right now, that would mean a young player we got cheap who Bud could transform in a year.

There are a few guys who may fit that description but none in the OP.  Make no mistake, the goal is not to be competitive until 2018-19.  In another year, Dennis starts encroaching upon his "prime years."  Prince will be a seasoned starting SF.  Collins will have had a year and may be ready to make some impact.  Ditto for Dorsey.  Who knows what next years picks (both possibly top-16) or damn close will yield--could be at least one ready-made rookie or used to trade for a veteran.

IMO, the way to look at things in through the spectrum that assumes we are ready to sacrifice a year and intend to try to blast off in  2018-19.

Sign and trade Tim plus Dunleavy for KCP.  Maybe we throw in a second round pick next year or some something minor.  Doubt it'd take a first...especially since KCP and his agent would be pining for the deal.

It's mindblowing that I don't hear this scenario mentioned by anyone,

TH:  Michigan Wolverine; Detroit Pistons (Michigan)

KCP:  Georgia Bulldog because he likes home; Atlanta Hawks (Georgia) (Home).

On 6/23/2017 at 6:51 PM, Watchman said:

Nothing shows that Schröder in a bigger role succeeds either.  Why is he still here?

There are two types of Hawks fans.  The ones who get Dennis and those, like the poster of the above quote, who do not,  Without being long winded.  Dennis was 23 last year.  A Euro--do the conversion and he's like 21 in USA years.  It was his first year as a starter and he averaged nearly 25 ppg in the playoffs.  If you don't  get that he is likely two years away from his prime with tons of room to improve and grow, if you don't get he is the most valuable asset we have, I will not take anything you say seriously and neither should anyone else.

On 6/23/2017 at 6:54 PM, Lurker said:

This is not about Schröder. You are not going to make me mad about slamming Schröder, so stop.

This is about Dwight Howard. Purely. Please realize that the Dwight Howard of today completely stinks and does not deserve to be in the NBA. Period. End of story.

more like it.

NO.  NEW TOPIC.

Cheap vet.

I like the calls on Sessions, J. Jack, and Hinrich.

Absolutely pay Horf what it takes to keep him here.  Being a decent guy and likely wanting to win....he'll accept slightly less than he could get if he really played hardball.

7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

To be developed.  He's not beating out Thabo, Bazemore, Korver or THJr

Of those you listed, only Thabo is a capable of playing SF and under contract for next season.

Lotta upside.  I don't know if he'll be ready this year or next.  This year wouldn't surprise me.

Dwight Howard is a cancer.  As is Melo.  I wouldn't pay either a dime.  Neither is a winner.  Bud would have no interest in either, I guarantee it.

Biyombo compared to Howard?  What a joke.  One's a max player....one's on a rookie contract if not mistaken.  Or a bargain second deal.  We don't need Dwight.  We need a physical post that can defend, push people around, block shots, and rebound (and make chippies).  That and an upgrade at SF.  Trade Teague, Waive Splitter.  Create more space.  Sign a bargain big.  Sign a legit starting SF.  Sign a veteran backup PG.  Draft the best SG/SF available.  /DONE

16 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Not a Splitter or Zaza type, but like someone good like Pau Gasol. These playoffs showed you how valuable a 3rd big is. Look at OKC and Toronto for example. The reason why they are winning is due to having a good 3rd big. This is was a key issue for Atlanta all year for the last two years. We need to solve this. Heck, even a good 3rd PF would be massive for us. You got to have 3 bigs. We got two in Sap and Al. But we are lacking the 3rd big.

 

 

Duh.  We need a legit physical bruising Center.  We cannot go places with Horford and Sap as our only viable "bigs".  They tried with Splitter.  I'm sure they'll try harder and do better this offseason.