99PROBL3MS

actually its the playoffs and the need for your role players comes and goes .

Dirk has set a standard with his play that he rarely shoots 4-19 so that on the occasion that he does the team can carry him .

But our best players go through weeks without bringing there 'A" game and so no real standard is set . Our role instead of being needed to carry the team, maybe 2 out of 6 games are needed basically every single game.

before you talk about role players just ask yourself when wast he last time our best 3 players all brought best games at the same time let alone back to back games.

Dirk has been one of the best players in the league for 10 straight years thats a heckuva standard to build around .

I never said anti of that was true. I was just mentioning the fact that peopled here actually think ours are better. I wasn't taking a shot at Dirk. I was just saying that his supporting cast is strong enough to carry them when he has a terrible night.

It's early in the game, but Dallas is already up 12. And they built a lot of that lead without Dirk in the game because of foul trouble. But the group of players they have on the floor are so solid, especially from a scoring standpoint, that they easily built that lead to 12. Dirk is 1 - 5 FG for 2 points, but they have a 12 point lead?

Why?

Jason Terry - 9 points on 4 - 6 shooting

Deshawn Stevenson - 9 points on 3 - 3 shooting from 3 point range

Jose Barea - 6 points on 3 - 5 shooting

Shawn Marion - 6 points on 2 - 5 shooting

Ish . . even old azz Brian Cardinal came into the game for 3 minutes and knocked down a 3.

And on the defensive end, they go zone and limit Miami's offense while they were knocking down shot after shot.

Of course, as I typed this, Miami goes on a 7 - 0 run and the lead is down to 5. But how huge was it for the reserves to play that well with Dirk basically being a non-factor right now? It'll be interesting to see if Dirk has a lot of energy to close out this game in the 4th quarter, based off of what the complimentary players did in those minutes while Dirk was inactive.

*****************

LOL . . hell of a run by Miami. They were down 12 when I started typing this. Then Eddie House comes in, and they go on a 14 - 0 run to go back up 2. House is 3 - 3 from three.

The fact that people think we have better role players than DAL is baffling. Dirk is 4-19 and they are winning this game convincingly. We would have no chance if Joe was playing as bad as Dirk is tonight.

I didn't know Dirk dribbles the ball for Barea and makes shots for him. There you go again putting words in someones mouth. I didn't say Marion was "shutting Lebron down".....you did. He is playing Lebron well whether you cost to about it. Barea and Terry are creating some shots for themselves etc. Why am I arguing when you think our guts are equal to theirs. I'm done. You can have it

Dalllas supporting cast is not better than ours. Just no way. Horford and Josh are BOTH better than anyone on that team outside of Dirk. Crawford is Terry's equal. The only position where you could say they are better is at PG, and it'Is not like Jason Kidd is exactly stellar out there at 38. He shot like 36% on the season. If Dallas wins it will be with one of the worst supporting casts in NBA history. JJ most definitely would never be able to pull that off. If JJ was on that Dallas team it would take a TOP season from him for that team to crack 40 wins. If he played like he did this season that team wins around 30. If we build our team around Dirk and our Core - JJ we would be an elite Eastern Conference contender every season.

Well LBJ, Wade, and Bosh are having serious trouble defending those role players yet you think ours who were out played by CHIs are better? Jason Kidd frustrated the heck out Westbrook and he shot terrible. Barea had his way with Westbrook also. Marion is going toe to toe with Lebron and playing well. (could Marvin do that?). Crawford is Terry's equal?

2011 Playoffs

Terry: 17ppg 46%FG 44%3pt 2reb 3asst 1.2stl

Craw: 15ppg 39%FG 35%3pt 1.3reb 2.5asst 0.8stl

Terry isn't capable of Craw's huge games but his consistency blows Craw out of the water.

I don't think that Mavericks team gets very far without the lights out production of Dirk. The others accomplish what they do less effectively than Dirk and would have even more trouble if they were relying, for example, on Marion or Kidd to take harder shots to cover for the gap between JJ and Dirk's production. I.e., I think it would give you diminished results all around.

I think you may be right but that team would still be in the convo and better than our current makeup. We are seeing now how important having the right role players is in the Finals. One superstar and a team of to notch role players us beating a team with two top five players, an allstar and worse role players. Dirk its leading that team and prong together some 7-9pt runs. He isn't carrying them. It was those same role players posters on here are belittling that hit all those big 3ptrs.

We thought of the same question at the same time. But I'm leaning towards another direction than you obviously.

Just as an FYI in case you're not sure what direction that is.

In the 9 games that Dirk missed during the season due to his knee sprain the Mavericks were 2-7

In the 9 games that Joe missed during the season due to elbow surgery the Hawks were 5-4.

You've gotten mad daring people to show once where JJ was compared to Lebron, Wade etc...Well you just said that JJ and a team of roleplayers would contend....just like Lebron, Wade etc would. See there's no need to be obtuse and think you have a point because something wasn't explicitly pointed out but it has surely been implied throughout this thread.

Well here we go. There is a difference between saying two players are on the same level and comparing their respective situations. What does three Mavs record without Dirk have to do with what I said? How its that relevant. Are you implying that DAL has worse surrounding players for Dirk than ATL has for JJ? I wonder how Wade and Lebron feel about those measly role players right now.

Picked DWill and Gasol.

I think Williams is comparable to Paul and should be healthier for more seasons.

Gasol is the best PF you listed on there, so with money not being an issue...

Same here. I think Paul is a better "pure" PG than Dwill but JJs ability to serve as a part time playmaker gives us more flexibility at that spot. I think Williams is a better offball player than CP3. I also think Gasol is the no-brainer of that 2nd group. He too hasn't had the opportunity to play with a PG of CP3 or Dwill's caliber.

PG Dwill

SG JJ

SF Marvin

PF Gasol

C Horf

That would be a very versatile Big 3 + Horf. Beating that team 4 out of 7 games would be a serious challenge.

* I just realized we could only pick one.

I still go with Dwill in that case.

PG Dwill

SG JJ

SF Marvin

PF Smoove

C Horf

We have our 1 and 1A in Dwill and Joe as well as two complimentary Fs. That team would need some defensive minded , rebounding bigs to contend though.

I have to wonder,

Now I've questioned the doozy of the argument that Joe doesn't need more talented players to drop him down the pecking order but rather he just needs "skillsets" around him. Never mind that his own personal performance is lackluster but the argument is that he will somehow blossom when the GM's finally get him the right "skillsets" players that will allow both him and, by extension, the team to actually contend. It hasn't been enough for him to have two good defensive bigs, one great on man the other great from the helpside, both rather efficient scoring the ball and amongst the best passers at their positions, defensive wings in Marvin/Mo/Damien, high percentage floor spacers in Bibby/Hinrich that can handle playcalling and a comparable scorer(s) to share the court with him at most times in Jamal/Flip.....No, he he has to have a passfirst PG and lowpost scorer also for him to finally earn his keep.

Alright then, I've found the perfect match for JJ as an actual answer to the thread's question without having to resort to massive deflections and delusions......

Dallas.

Dallas has most of those skillsets that JJ needs in a team, Defensive Rebounding big in Chandler, Pass First PG in Kidd, Wing Defender in Stevenson, Secondary Scorer in Terry, an assortment of Shooters, Floor Spacers and Ball Handlers off the bench and I guess we'll just have to settle with Marion as that hybrid big that can also guard 4 positions and spends 70% of his time in the paint on offense which added to Chandler makes them more than formidable in that regard.

Now, replace Dirk with JJ.

Is that team still up 3-2 on the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals?

I've satisfied the criteria for JJ being both the best player on the team and him having the multitude of skillsets that some are saying he's lacking here but does that put a team like Mavericks in the same position they are in now? They've got the primetime coaching in Carlisle who was the original architect of the Detroit dynasty and even led very successful Pacer teams before the Malice At The Palace broke them up and it's a team of Vets all JJ's age or older with good IQ. So, replace Dirk with JJ. Same Results? Yay or nay?

Good question. I think That team would still give MIA hell for sure. JJ and Terry would give MIAs backcourt serious problems. Wade would have to defend Joe instead of cheating off Stevenson and closing on 3s when they kick out to him. JJ would be another distributor and playmaker. Dirk has been so clutch in this series that I don't think that could be duplicated. JJs first two years in ATL, he was tied for second in the League for unassisted game winning shots with 8. He isn't an elite closer but hit some pretty big shots in this post season. I think that team would still be a hell of an out for anyone.

Yeah, JJ averages 18 ppg on 29% from three because he gets doubled. Poor, poor JJ. If all those other hall of famers had gotten doubled they would have all struggled to score 20 points on a consistant basis.

:boohoo:

I love how all of those Miami fans use that argument while making excuses for Wade.... oh wait, no they don't. That's because Wade put up a PER of 30 against us on a team with Joel Anthony as the second most productive player. People don't understand that the fact you have to EXPLAIN why JJ can't play well is THE reason he isn't a franchise superstar. "boohoo, JJ is playing with a bad hand/knee/finger... Boohoo, JJ gets doubled, Boohoo, JJ doesn't have a supporting cast (which isn't even close to true btw)" Meanwhile Nowitski is about to win a championship with Jason Terry as the second best player on his team and a TORN freaking tendon in his hand. The only thing JJ has in common even remotely with the upper echelon of players is his contract. Every other individual and team statistic that exists shows he is not even in the same galaxy as these guys. All these arguments are such BS it's pretty amazing you guys even believe it. JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him??? than how in the hell do you explain his best scoring season coming when we had a 28 win team? He can't be effective because he gets doubled... How do you explain EVERY OTHER superstar in the league who gets doubled, some considerably more aggressively than JJ, still put up superstar numbers. You can't. You won't even address these points you will just continue repeating the same things that are proven to make no sense whatsoever.

You guys keep arguing with yourselves......Who said JJ is on the same level as Lebron and Wade???? Show me one post where someone said that? Dirk doesn't have just Jason Terry either. Who said JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him? Lebron is being doubled in this series. Is he putting up Superstar numbers? No his equal counterpart Wade is. Wade was doubled in the CHI series. Did he put up Superstar numbers? No his equal counterpart Lebron did. When ORL doubled Joe, did he put up Superstar numbers? No Crawford picked up the slack and made them pay for i. Although I won't say Crawford is JJs equal counterpart, he is still more than capable of filling it up and serves as he perfect example for what I am saying.

When Joe destroyed CHI in game one, they trapped him the rest of the series and Craw didn't have it going. Neither did Marvin. Neither did Horford. Teague picked up some slack but was allowing as many as he scored. Smoove picked up the slack and had a monsterous game 4 but reverted back to being the jump shooter in games 5 and 6. Horf and Marvin didn't give us what we needed from their spots. I agree that these arguments are such BS because no one has even made those arguments. You did.....

Joe had and plays with two 2nd team All Defense players, a 3rd team All NBA player and 2 time All Star, 6th Man of The Year winner and secondary 20 points per game scorer yet woe is him. Get him a 20 and 10 lost post threat and a 10 assist a game PG and then he will really blossom into that 28 point a game superstar that he is!

Way to overexaggerate it......That really strengthens your argument.

Ex.

PG Kidd

SG Joe

SF Marion

PFSmoove

C Chandler

Terry

Barea

Haywood

Are you telling me that team couldn't contend?

I disagree with your reasoning behind the double teams though CTC. Teams know that if they focus on taking JJ and Craw away, the rest of our team can't beat them. Neither of them has great PER but that is just how I see it. Teams know that if they can slow JJ and Craw with doubles that Horf, Marv, and Smoove aren't good enough to beat them.

If you put Joe on a team with two other perennial all-stars and role players such as Chandler, Marion, Terry etc. yes he could be the best player on that team and seriously contend for a title.

Come on now Supp.....Jason Kidd, Marion, Terry, Chandler, etc. are all scrubs? How many if our bench players would log a minute for Dallas. Joe isn't the player Dirk us but Dallas has far more surrounding tashkent than ATL.

I don't enjoy watching the Mavs play at all. They flop everyone down the court. That just isn't my style. A bunch of euro-style floppers.

I am sure they all have a preference of position but Horford is the only to publicly complain about playing a certain position. If he doesn't mind playing C in the all-star game, he certainly shouldn't mind playing it in the games that actually matter. He can physically get it done. He just has to want to.

I still think that KG is getting too much credit as the guy on those successful BOS teams. He was definitely a key cog and perhaps the most important but those teams were well constructed and and well coached. Our current roster pales in comparison to those BOS teams and JJ isn't the reason why. I get the premise, but don't see much symmetry between the two situations.

My question is, who should we be depending on to create easier shots for JJ? Is that guy even on the roster yet?

I can say with a straight face that if JJ had Doc Rivers and two players as great as Allen, Pierce, or Garnett that he could win a title as the lead guy.

Not to mention a PG like Rondo. An enforcer like Perkins. A stretch 5 with a nice post game like Rasheed, Big Baby, P.J. Brown, Tony Allen etc. KG is getting a little too much credit. Surrounded by that kind of group JJ gets to the finals imo.

It is ashamed what had become of Marvin. He has fallen even lower than I thought he ever could. Injuries certainly aren't helping his case either.

No one underrates the talents of Joe Johnson like his own fans. Are people seriously talking about Marcus Thornton and the like? I mean....seriously? Dirk is as good comparison because DAL fans did thee same thing to him for ages. Tyson Chandler and Haywood are making a world if difference on that team. Not to mention the right coach.

I agrees with Diesel bigtime. The days of "building" through the draft are virtually DEAD. In the modern day, FAs and trades are where it is happening. The kind of difference makers we are expecting to replace Joe with (monetarily) want to play where teams are already wining. Without Smoove and Joe, you would have to get extremely lucky uh the draft or be very bad for a very long time.

This team without Joe Johnson and Josh.Smith....... I don't want to think about that.....

Lebron transcended the game last night. He made Rose look more like a rookie than an MVP. As much as I would love to hater on that performance I can't. He finished strong and didn't look for whistles. He got on the floor after loose balls etc. My only complaint was his insistence on going "Iso-Bron" late ob the 3rd. I hope the Hawks were watching closely (Horf, Marvin and Joe in particular). Go Hawks!

Haslem plays with the heart of a lion. He isn't as gifted as Horf but plays with 1000x the heart. He is a feisty competitor. If we could put Haslem's heart in Horf's chest, we would have an MVP candidate. Haslem is a better rebounder, shotblocker, and team defender. It is because if his nonstop effort.

The biggest difference between JJ and Pierce is that Pierce gets the star calls and JJ doesn't. Maybe he should flop more?