archie44

If the Hawks wanted Pete out, he'd be out right now.

that I know everything going on in Pete's office, I'm not going to tell you that I know what will happen today. I don't. I really don't think ANYONE except Pete Babcock (and then Stan) knows what is going on and how close we may be. However, I do know what is being reported: Pete is talking with A LOT of teams. I think something could happen, but I am not going to be surprised if NOTHING happens either. The climate for trading is not conducive for heavy activity. To me, the biggest thing to watch today is if we do in fact make a deal. It may signify Pete's future is as our GM. Now I would not say that if we do not make a deal he is necessarily gone. But if a major trade is made, it might mean Stan and Terry are giving Pete a chance to fix this mess. If you've read my earlier thread, I'd blow it up. Shareef is a waste of space. Believe me, he has no long term value to our team. He is a complimentary player who is not tough and does not play well in the clutch! I have never been more disappointed in a player in all my life, and I think my opinion is shared in the Hawks front office. Robinson has little trade value, except maybe if we'd take Sprewell on, and we won't. Theo Ratliff is marketable, but I like Theo. He at least WANTS to play defense and is aware of our problems going on. Yet when he sees others not giving a [censored] about playing defense (i.e. SHAREEF and Glenn), he gives up at times. I can't blame him totally. But if we traded Theo, I would hope to get a lot in return. JT ain't going anywhere unless it's for a player similiar to his situation (young, full of potential, maybe a year away from cashing in - i.e. a Mike Miller type). So we'll see. I'm not going to be shocked either way. We might make one trade or two trades. Then again, Pete might be watching "Guiding Light" when 3pm rolls around!

If Smith had been kept, Lon would have never been able to switch JT over to shooting guard, which is what got JT going in the first place. Smith was a decent complimentary player, but he was not a star and was never going to lead us to anything. The three players you mentioned on Utah that the Jazz has eased into their rotation are currently being mentioned in trade talks with the Clippers. A blowup is what I did in my post. The Hawks made two major trades to start the transformation (Smith/Rider and Blaylock/Terry). Then they traded Dikembe during the next season. That next offseason, they got SAR. Then last offseason, Glenn Robinson. The transformation started in June of 1999 and went through the summer of 2002. That was a gradual transformation. The players involved, the mix that was assembled, has NOT worked. But like it or not, the previous nucleus had to be broken up. It was not going to get us past the first round of the playoffs, particularly since the three main players (Mookie, Smith, Deke) were all getting older.

David Aldridge was just on ESPN saying the Hawks were talking with a lot of teams. One deal they had proposed was sending SAR to Houston for Eddie Griffin. Obviously, others would be involved in the deal to even out salaries. Houston turned the deal down. Griffin had an apathetic workout when he came here a few years ago, but he sure does have potential!

Wait are you saying blowing the team up too quickly is what has us in this mess? You mean when we traded Smith, Blaylock, and eventually Dikembe Mutombo? I'm sorry. How many championships did that group win? Steve Smith's numbers have steadily declined since he was traded from here. He was a leader, but he was not a star and was not going to lead us to anything except the first round of the playoffs. Mookie Blaylock was a great player for us. But he was traded at the perfect time. Plus, the player we got for him is pretty good (despite the fact I'd trade him in this scenario). Dikembe Mutombo was going to be in his mid-30's and a new contract for him would take him into his late 30's or early 40's. Why build a team around an aging player who has also shown decreased production since leaving us. It's amazing the affection some still have for the Smith, Blaylock, Dikembe group. Sure, it's easy now, as we are losing, to wish we could at least win enough games to get to the playoffs (like that group of three did). But the fact was they were never going to get us past the second round of the playoffs. That's why they were dealt away. Yes, the plan that replaced those players has not worked. No arguing that at all. That's why I want to blow it up. Would just trading SAR, or just trading Theo help the team and build a brighter future? I don't think so. Therefore, the bomb exploded!

Here you go. If I was GM (contrary to popular belief at one time on this board - I am not) of the Hawks, here are the deals I would make tomorrow to remake this team. DEAL #1: (Real GM Trade Code 960632) Shareef Abdur-Rahim to Chicago for Jamal Crawford Marcus Fizer Eddie Robinson SYNOPSIS: SAR goes away for three players who can contribute. Crawford and Fizer are only going to get better. Crawford is a real deal point guard who is going to be a star. DEAL #2: (Real GM Trade Code 960658) Theo Ratliff to Orlando for Mike Miller Andrew DeClercq Darrell Armstrong SYNOPSIS: Orlando gets the big man it craves. We get a shooting guard who can score. DeClercq has one year left on his deal after this season. He can help take Theo's place by complimenting Nazr Mohammed. Darrell Armstrong will be a free agent after this season and will not re-sign. DEAL #3: (Real GM Trade Code 960761) Jason Terry Chris Crawford to LA Clippers for Elton Brand SYNOPSIS: This deal gives us a physical player inside. With Crawford and Miller on board, there is no reason to keep JT. We all love JT, but he's always going to be misplaced. We re-sign Elton Brand to a max contract. He becomes our young star we build the team around. He's a lot better than SAR! DEAL #4: (Real GM Trade Code 960730) Glenn Robinson to LA Lakers for Kareem Rush Robert Horry Tracy Murray SYNOPSIS: Lakers get another scorer. Rush is a young player who can develop and back up Mike Miller. Horry has another year left and gives us some muscle. Tracy Murray is a free agent after this season and will be gone. ----------------------- THEN in MAY, we win the lottery and get the #1 pick in the NBA Draft in June. We select: LEBRON JAMES ----------------------- Your 2003-2004 Atlanta Hawks PG: Jamal Crawford Dan Dickau SG: Mike Miller Kareem Rush SF: Lebron James Marcus Fizer Eddie Robinson PF: Elton Brand Robert Horry Alan Henderson C: Nazr Mohammed Andrew DeClercq ----------------------------------------------- Now I GUARANTEE you that this team has tremendous potential and will be one of the most exciting teams in the NBA.

Pete is a very nice man. But the fact of the matter is this has not worked. It's a shock to everyone, but it's as simple as that. Does it mean Pete's an idiot? No. I would have made every major decision exactly the same way he did the last few years. I would have traded Mookie and Smith and Dikembe. I would have traded for Shareef. I would have traded for Glenn. But I would have been wrong as well. The only thing I would have done differently than Pete is put CONDITIONS on the 2003 first round pick to Milwaukee. I would have made it Top 8 safe. It is imperative that we keep our first round pick this summer. We need help. If our pick comes up anywhere between fourth and tenth, it will be a travesty to give it away.

1. Cleveland 10-44- 2. Denver 12-42- 2 3. Memphis 16-36- 7 4. Toronto 16-35- 7.5 5. Miami 18-36- 8 6. Chicago 19-35 9 7. LA Clippers 18-34 9 8. Atlanta 20-34 10 Come on Hawks........ LOSE We MUST keep our draft pick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who else is going to cheer for the Clippers on Saturday Night?

What an embarrassment! Old foggies around here know I'm usually one of the optimistic ones. I think (could even go and research it if I cared enough) I even posted in October that I thought we would win 48 games this season. I'm a fool. We all are to root for these hapless, hopeless, heartless idiots. Somebody asked me today what was wrong with my beloved Hawks, the team I had bragged about to him all summer long. My response: "They've all got a bruised hymen." No other way to describe it. [censored] all of this. Root for them to lose so we can somehow, someway, get Lebron James. Our idiot GM would probably trade the first overall pick for Dale Davis or someone. But nonetheless, root for us to loose. It's our only hope.

Thoughts: 1. This ain't working. 2. Stotts is pitiful. He has no idea what to do with this sorry bunch. He's not a bad guy or a bad coach, but he knows he's getting screwed by having to coach this group. 3. Instead of dumping salaries for nothing, let's dump these duds for unconditional FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICKS. 4. Let's get into position to get LEBRON JAMES. This franchise has NO chance with this group. I, along with many people on this board and the ENTIRE Hawks organization, have been wrong about this roster. It's a waste. 5. Do we want to start over? No. But do we have a choice? No. 6. Look at Golden State. They get Arenas, Murphy, and Richardson in ONE draft. More solid players in one night drafted than we've had in a decade. 7. Trade Shareef, Big Dog, Theo, AND JT. They don't want to be here, so forget them. Get something in return. Get someone who WANTS to play defense. That's why the SAR for Juwan Howard deal proposed by Diesel is not a bad thought. I would do it before you could pronounce Shareef's name. I'm frustrated. It's tough to lose again and again and again.

The big deal right now is the huge "FOR SALE" sign that is transparently hanging on the front door of the Hawks office. Until that is resolved (and who knows if it actually will be or not) everything else is also up in the air regarding long term plans. But boy didn't Mr. Van Gundy look comfortable at Philips Saturday.

Did you guys realize how many participants in the Saturday night NBA festivities could have been Hawks? If we had kept our third overall pick in the 2001 draft and not traded for the panty waste Shareef Abdur-Rahim, we could have chosen from the following: Pau Gasol (actually our pick traded to the Grizzlies) Jason Richardson Richard Jefferson Troy Murphy We could have traded our #3 pick to Boston and selected Jefferson and Murphy. And of course if we had not foolheartedly given up a second first rounder for Lorenzen Wright, we could have selected one of the following future stars with last year's #8 pick in the 2002 draft: Amare Stoudamire Caron Butler OUCH! When you look at it this way, it's hard to imagine Pete Babcock keeping his job. But it looks like that will happen.

PLAYMAKER SAYS: "He cares, but he is resigned to losing. He is beyond the point of frustration." ----------------- That comment right there sir makes me want to get rid of him. What kind of leader becomes resigned to losing? He's a waste of space.

For me, this is a no brainer. People are conveniently blaming Glenn for our mess. Believe me folks, it ain't him. He is not a cancer. He cares. We all knew his shortcomings when we got him. We should not be surprised that he's not a great defensive player. But we should appreciate what he does bring to us. In my opinion, from what I see first hand, Glenn is not the problem. I would still make that trade in a heartbeat. Now I'm not saying I would'nt include the 2003 first rounder in the deal again (haha).

What were you watching? 1. Our defense finally showed up. Yea, the Rockets shot 34.6 percent from the field, but there was a reason for that. We, and particularly Theo and Mike Wilks, played great defense to make them struggle on offense. 2. The absence of Glenn forced Stotts to use the bench more, and it was effective. This does not, however, mean that Glenn's absence is the reason we won. It only means that contributions from Glover, Ham. Nazr, and Hendu meant more to us in this game. We screamed all preseason that this team should have a solid bench. Tonight we saw it - for the first time this season. 3. We had energy - particularly from Theo Ratliff. His defensive energy rubs off on other players. JT said in the AJC that Theo was leading the charge in the huddle during timeouts. That has been missing - energy, passion - until tonight. 4. Not impressive. Look, we needed this. A big crowd, a big draw on the other team. We needed to win and the players knew it. They rose to the occasion - all but that waste of energy you've been following for eight years.

We are a horrible ballhandling team. This was something that burned Lon up. He knew we could'nt handle the ball worth crap. But there was NOTHING he could do about it. This is the main reason that we are not a very good team right now. Would a great ballhandling guard help? Maybe. I really believe Mike Wilks is a decent ballplayer, but he's not the long term answer. The long term answer is over on the bench wearing number 12. I really can't believe I'm saying this cause I cheered for JT as the PG all summer with a few on here, but Dan Dickau should be getting more PT at PG. He can handle the ball, and having someone who can do that will make us better.

The guy is playing HORRIBLE basketball right now. I see a lot of the games - even some practices. Believe me, he is the most apathetic player in the history of this franchise. Does he care? Probably. But at least show it once in a while. He played another horrible game tonight. For most of the game, he was against Eddie Griffin, who KILLED him. A friecking 20 year old had 20 points and 16 rebounds against him. It was rough. Take the A off of APATHETIC and what do you get? PATHETIC Ole vets on this board will tell you PLAYMAKER that I do know what I'm talking about. And again, let me say: THE PROBLEM IS NOT GLENN ROBINSON

Trade him away. All of you folks who are on here talking about Glenn Robinson being a cancer are dead wrong. At least Big Dog cares. Shareef has given up. His lifeless, apathetic attitude is a problem. He's making a lot of money, but he's not earning one penny right now. SAR is the cancer. We heard talk from Grizzlies' fans when the deal was made that this would happen. Now it has happened. SAR works in the community. Great. But does he help this team win basketball games? Absolutely not. Forget community service. We want a winner. Shareef Abdur-Rahim needs to prove he's a winner. So far, he's only brought one quality over from the Grizzlies: LOSING.

Another Loss Sends Hawks Into Turmoil (AP)Atlanta 87563900222222 They hung their heads. They looked down at the floor so long they could count the dots. Yet once again, the Atlanta Hawks were a group of highly paid individuals with no answers. "We're lost," said Terry Stotts, now 1-5 in his first six games as the head coach. "There are no answers, no secret formula. Lon Kruger is the lucky one. He's out of this catastrophe." Stotts tried unsuccessfully to toss his clipboard on the court during a timeout, hoping it would bounce off the floor and hit one of the players, demonstrating his unhappiness with their lackluster effor. But even that didn't work. "I hoped the clipboard would bounce up and hit Shareef," Stotts said. "But instead, he thought I was drawing up a play where he could spike the ball after a bad call by the broad calling the game." Players and coaches are somewhat resigned to the fact that this team is done. All the expectations of a summer filled with promise are now empty. Can any trade, any transaction fix this rudderless ship? "We could add Shaquille O'Neal and Jason Kidd to this mix and they'd go sour as well," says Assistant Coach Alex English, who yearns for his days in the NBDL, where they at least try once in a while. "If this group took a chemistry class, they'd think they were in math so they could count their money." Fact is the Hawks defense is about as strong as Al Queda right now. Pretty lackluster. Ira Newble, the team's designated defensive star, sounded defeated after the game. "Man I bounce around, try to play good defense," Newble said. "But these guys are afraid their underarms are going to smell if they raise their arms on defense. Worthless." Meanwhile, Hawks President Stan Kasten entered the lockerroom to announce that ESPN would soon start filming a documentary on the 2002-2003 Atlanta Hawks. Kasten said: "They're going to call it "The Lack of Gumption Boys." Maybe that will embarrass you guys enough to play better." Steve Holman, who hasn't missed a Hawks broadcast in over eleven hundred games, was walking around the lockerroom after the game hoping he'd come down with the croup. "[censored] the streak," Holman said. "This is painful." Shareef Abdur Rahim, who was so frustrated during Monday's game with the New Jersey Nets he decided to audition for the basketball spiking competition, was somewhat self-centered in his assessment: "Do you guys realize that I made $146,341.46 tonight? Not a bad night at the office." Hanno Mottolla called from overseas wondering how everyone was doing. Theo Ratliff peared over at Abdur-Rahim's locker with disbelief. Ratliff is by no means oblivious to this criticism, but he is amazed at how apathetic this team seems to be right now. "We're counting down to April 16th," Ratliff said. "Yea we'll lose a lot of money the day before, but the best part is that we won't have to see each other again for a while." The Hawks players are not good actors. It's easy to see simply be watching the games the distaste each of them have for one another. It's gotten to the point where you can even hear their thoughts: Shareef says: "I wonder if I have time during this timeout to count the fans in the stands." Theo says: "Good grief I miss Larry Brown." Big Dog says: "Maybe Ray Allen was right." Dion says: "If I don't shoot the ball in the next ten seconds, I might pop." Dickau says: "My God I'm one white [censored]." JT says: "Coach Stotts just yelled "31" so I guess that means they're running a play for me this time." Darvin HAM says: "Wonder if Shareef is uncomfortable with me on the team." Hendu says: "The Injured List sure beats the [censored] out of this." Pete Babcock waltsed in. Someone had taped a piece of looseleaf paper on his back with the words "Fire Me" written in red ink. Babcock, however, is more interested in the future. "We still could get our first round pick. Might as well go ahead and tank the season so we can pick Lebron James and get another ball hog in here." Fact is, Terry Furlow has more life than the players on this team. Team operators use to announce the Hawks line "Your Playoff Bound Atlanta Hawks" when answering. Now they've switched to "Your Lethargic, Apathic Spoiled Hoop Boys from the A-T-L." Who can fix this team? Hubie Brown has uttered enough four letter words to make the Grizzlies awaken from their storied failure. Could his protege, Mike Fratello, return to Atlanta and curse these players out? Our would he wind up killing one of the players when they gave him the patented Hawks player "DAZED" look they have seemingly mastered? Darvin Ham walked over to the corner of the lockerrrom. He saw Billy Knight snoozing again. "The game's over Billy," Ham contested. "You can wake up now." Problem was, that was Knight's normal condition. Hawks players were again perplexed at the incredulous fans during the Nets game Monday night. It was understandable that Falcons Quarterback Mike Vick received a nice ovation during a timeout. But Hawks players knew they were in trouble when even Fulton Keykendall got a huge ovation when he was showed on the big screen. Thank God Bubba Bean was not in attendance. "Going through the motions" is the rallying cry now. The players simply want to get this season over with. It's January the 7th, but for the most part, it's done. No draft pick. No answers. No solutions. The funny part is thinking about Lon Kruger sitting back on some beach somewhere laughing his ass off. He's still going to get paid, and yet he doesn't have to see this mess. Terry Stotts is envious as [censored]. For his new life is definitely no day at the beach. More like a night stuck in an empty arena. He majored in Zoology at Oklahoma. Little did he know how he would one day use his degree. "You're right, this place is a zoo," Stotts said. "I don't know what to do. Wish I could choke them, but that would not work. Maybe Kevin Loughery could do better. I've always wanted to be a NBA Head Coach, but I think I'd be better working in 6th grade. At least I'd have experience with what's going on here."

According to Real GM, these work: Jason Terry Alan Henderson and either Crawford, Dermarr, Dion, or Emanual FOR Eddie Jones OR Brian Grant COMMENT: The most logical deal? Jason Terry Theo Ratliff Alan Henderson Emanual Davis FOR Eddie Jones AND Brian Grant COMMENT: Just in case we want to blow up the team..... Jason Terry Alan Henderson Emanual Davis FOR Derek Anderson Antonio Davis COMMENT: That is interesting. Very interesting. I'll add two for the heck of it: Jason Terry Nazr Mohammed FOR Mike Miller Andrew DeClercq Olumide Oyediji COMMENT: I'd do that one. Nazzie is now Casper the Ghost. Nazr Mohammed Emanual Davis FOR Mike Miller Andrew DeClercq COMMENT: They're not that desperate, are they? ---- When thinking about Portland, Bonzi Wells would be difficult. He's a BYC player. Hard to get a match. We would'nt want Stoudamire, would we? He's toooo expensive. 45% of the salary ratio. That's not feasable. Looks to me like a deal with Miami could happen. But what are we going to do with three players who WANT to score 20 points per game? Eddie Jones, SAR, and Big Dog?????? Somebody warm up Dan Dickau.

Well let's just say it's no secret that the lame duck GM is trying to make deals to shake things up so he can save his skin. It does not take a rocket scientest to figure that out. Some of the discussions have become public. http://www.nypost.com/sports/66174.htm Believe me, this more than likely only scratches the surface on the talks going on. Although you can rest assured that any big deal of this magnitude is going through Uncle Stan. Don't think Portland and Miami are the only teams wanting JT. When the word gets out, the line will be long. So don't panic. There is an excellent chance (in my oh so humble opinion) that this team could have a different look - and soon. Look, this mix IS NOT WORKING. I'm shocked. Everyone's shocked. Get on Pete all you want, but there's not a person on here who would have turned down the Dikembe trade, the Shareef trade, or the Big Dog trade. BUT THE MIX - COMBINED WITH A GUARD WHO FOR SOME REASON IS A TWEENER - IS NOT WORKING. Therefore, changes. They are a coming. OK guys, let's see the roster with Jones or Grant or Stoudamire or Daniels or whomever. Have fun.

but there were others who agreed with him and thought up stupid deals.

The moderators should shut down the threads talking about trading JT. Give me a break. JT and Big Dog for Williams, Gasol, and Battier????????? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ----- Look the turnovers are a concern. But this team is practically brand new. A new small forward. A new center (yes, he's new cause he's played more games in the past week than he did all of last season). It's going to take time. The only thing I will say is that EMANUAL DAVIS is a WASTE. He's a nice guy, but NOTHING good ever happens when he's in there. To me, that's what Pete was implying - not a trade of one of his marquee players. Jason Terry is becoming one of the best point guards in the NBA. Period. What a great start to his season. Yet, in this place, he's trade bait. UNBELIEVABLE. Be patient. I know we're all frustrated. We're all tired of losing. We should be at least 8-5 right now. But we're breaking down at the end (Boston, Phoenix games). We're going to get better as we go along here. Give it time. The biggest knock on sports fans is that they (as a group) are impatient. It's natural. We want to win NOW, particularly if the team we follow has been losing for a few years. But please be patient. We won only 33 games a year ago. If you can't see that we're making progress, you're not looking closely enough. Are we there yet? No, not at all. We've got to keep working, keep striving to get better. But give it time. This team will improve dramatically on 33 wins!

was a great draft pick. Dermarr was on his way to becoming a tremendous player. He would have averaged between 10-15 points and provide great defense. It was an unfortunate thing that happened to him, but to say we got nothing out of that pick is kind of an odd statement. He played very well last season. He could still come back. I would not bet against him.

He is an excellent passer. I think he might win MVP! Might as well be optimistic. We're at .500!