benhillboy

I like the Hawks without Joe. More driving, less contested jumpers. Dare I say Marvin's B-Ball I.Q. rivals or is higher than Joe's? Unless you are an elite range shooter (and Joe is not), a high I.Q. scorer forces it to the hole if single-guarded, no excuses, especially down the stretch. A lower I.Q. player (and sometimes lazy player) will settle for fade-aways and turn-arounds. Also, the players know exactly were to look for various forms of leadership down the stretch from Bibby instead of trying to search and read Joe. Josh seems more calm knowing that he'll get enough good looks (please, stop with the jumpers.) No more contested, quick-trigger threes after dribbling for 7 seconds by Joe or out-of-rhythm mid-rangers. Free-throw oppurtunities doubled. Many more and-1 oppurtunities. While lacking without Joe in perimeter defense, Al and Josh run the paint and erase many mistakes by the backcourt. The team just seems to have a nice blend of steadiness and aggressiveness that you simply can't have with Passive Joe AKA I'm-6'7-240-And-Can't- Dunk. Maybe he should just sit against sub .500 teams and come off the bench against above .500 teams for 28 minutes. I wouldn't mind, although I know a lot of you want me dead for the thought. I am just historically and philosophically at odds against anyone who is a Joe Johnson fan and satisfied with him as our leader. His game is too numbers-oriented and not enough in the passion, determination, and focus department.

Let's go, Joe-less Hawks, although I cringe when Acie appears. Again, welcome back Al. We almost forgot how much of a pro you are. Let's go Flip. To the hole I mean. Mo is the definition of solid. I will never advocate Zaza, but I have developed considerable respect for the guy. Woody-Haters, admit it. The guy knows his defense and the buttons to push down the stretch, as he has clearly studied Popovich and has mastered some elements of the Detroit Defensive Run that he contributed to.

I'm guessing he'd fare poorly. Mark Price makes you a much better 3 point shooter. He can't make you into a true three-point shooter.

What about the other contestants? Are you kidding? Jason Kapono isn't well-rounded enough to even attend All-Star weekend, let alone participate. I'm sure Ray Allen is still laughing at the line-up. Three-point percentage is so overrated in the league.

I can't front like I'm a Marvin Fan. Started warming up to him this year only because he has clearly taking a liking to working with Mark Price overtime and has shown favor for throwing his body into anyone to get to the line, most impressively against the Shaqs and Howards of the world. While not his fault, I will always think of what could have been with Paul. Spilled milk, though. The bright side is that he's still very young and I think he is around 80% of optimum performance, both physically and mentally.

With that said, Marvin simply needs as many oppurtunites as possible to be physical and use his backside as a buffer. Those oppurtunities are considerably decreased with Joe dominating the ball, point-blank. I'm sure fans of Joe are tired of my bull, but I feel strongly that Joe ultimately detracts more than he adds to this team, despite his gaudy totals and good efficiency. Can Woody and his staff come up with better motion and more pick-and-roll options? Of course, as they deserve much more "blame" for the Hawks' offensive shortcomings than Joe. While far from perfect players, Bibby and Flip are more polished and show a better feel for the game and their abilities at the guard position than Joe. If Flip takes 2 awful threes out of rhythm, he will bust his butt to force a foul at the hole. Joe won't. His next shot is a fade-away. If Bibby and Al screw up a connection, Bibby will implore the squad to keep moving the ball and move without it. Joe just says "My bad." Our young front line simply will not progress until our #1 option is as aggressive as they are in terms of drawing fouls, showing emotion, finishing strong at the rack, and passing for balanced, optimum shooting.

Not pretty, but a good team win nonetheless. It is concerning when the same issues repeatedly arise: being out rebounded, Josh handling, free-throw shooting (mainly Josh), and unforced turnovers (Josh the ring-leader, yet again.) Randy Foye helped give the game away: he was awful (How 'bout Acie, Acie fans?) The game shouldn't have been nearly as close. The zone with the double on Jefferson was outstanding, though.

But a win is a win, against a semi-quality opponent on the road in February. You have much less to talk about in a singular-player sense and are prompted to look at the Hawks' performance as a whole without Joe. I like that better than latter.

It almost seems as if Marvin can't progress at optimum level with Joe Johnson. By no means do I claim to have the prowess in the area of scouting and analyzing a player's and a team's game that a GM possess (unless you're Billy Knight.) But if you're Sund, it should be glaringly apparent that Joe retards Marvin's aggressiveness. An aggressiveness that leads to 14 free-throw attempts by banging down-low on both sides, catching the ball considerably deep on the block, and dribble-driving with reckless abandon against a good front line in Love and Jefferson, things that you wouldn't associate with Joe Johnson. When was the last time Joe attempted 14 freebies? For whatever reason, the offense wasn't clogged and had a sense of working for the best shot rather than iso for Joe.

Winning this game has to raise an eyebrow for Sund. The ball swung as good, but still below average. Bad shots were kept to a minimum by playing inside, team foot speed on defense seemed improved (the Bibby exception), and there was a quiet but more evident leadership shown down the stretch, which I expect was Bibby, but could've been a combination of things. Maybe addition by subtraction without Joe being quiet as a mouse and gassed during crunch time. We killed them inside offensively, mostly Josh and Marvin with more good catches, while the D (anchored by Al, glad to see you back) forced the Wolves to shoot awfully in the paint. Joe wouldn't have helped us with Kevin Love owning the glass (what was happening?)

Could the Hawks have blown the Wolves out with Joe? Probably. Could we have loss with him? Certainly.

Obviously, I'm not a Joe fan, but this win isn't a knee-jerk reaction, as I think we should beat any marginal team, like we have with Joe, without Joe. My favorite players on the squad aren't on the radar in the league. I've been watching Joe for a long time, as I'm sure all of you have. The guy simply doesn't have "It," and being a number 1 option on a relatively young team without "It" will detract from the team on too many occasions. While greatly skilled and technical, there's nothing about him that justifies anything close to $70mil.

(Has anybody seen Billy Knight?)

It would be interesting to sit down and look at film of Joe Johnson with Sund and get his true, unadulterated opinion as to what they should do going forward with the 2010 sweepstakes approaching. Most players who are traded and/ or let go in free agency twice in their career have issues that a majority of franchises will gladly do without, most cases being attributed to "inflated" of "skewed" statistics that raise value for contract years or whatever the case. The franchise knows that said player is substantially questionable in a certain facet, maybe emotionally. They let him go, event though he put up 18-8-4. The problem will bite the next franchise in the butt, all while being clandestine to the general fan; people around the league know the glaring flaw that will ultimately detract from the team too consistently, considering the responsibilities and salary of that player. Every team has a definitive plus or minus line as to the total impact of a player, which infinitely extends beyond the realm of field-goal percentage from the circle, win-shares, or a 5-steal game.

I think the Celtics analyzed Joe and said "He simply doesn't have 'it'." (Even though Doc brown-nosed and said it was a huge mistake to let him go during the playoff series last year.) I think D' Antoni thought he could be replaced for a much cheaper price. I refuse to believe that coaches allow players to leave that they would lose sleep over. Look at the league. T-Mac was shown the door twice. Basically Glass Joe. Shaq? Kobe nor Phil could stomach his conditioning some 7 years ago, which eventually drove the Heat crazy when juxtaposed with an Alonzo Mourning who stayed in world-class shape, despite a major organ malfunction. Chauncey clearly has issues with coaches. A.I. will be remembered as infamously as a Hall of Famer can be. Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson for obvious reasons. The Hornets could have seen with a crystal ball 9 years ago that Baron Davis would routinely miss quarters and halves, of seasons. There are surely coaches who can't stand the sight of Jason Kidd shooting from 20. Ray Allen is easily the most manageable, efficient, non-detractive player that has been let go by two franchises, whether it is trade and/or free agency walks, by presumably accelerating his conditioning after major injury problems. I think it is highly unlikely Dwayne Wade or LeBron go anywhere unless Cleveland and Miami are unbelievably cheap and/ or stupid. Their shaky jumpers and Dwayne’s past injury history, which he seems to have remedied, are dismissible when their total impact is considered, so basically everyone else is game for 2009-2010. I hope there's a team who plans to outbid the Hawks for Joe, which shouldn't be too hard considering ownership.

It know it seems silly to knock a routine 23-5-5 guy as "detractful". Clearly All-Star numbers in any era, and more durable than given credit for. I still think the future progression of the team (most notably Al and Marvin) without Joe is best, with at least 70 mil cleared off the books. He simply is far from a #1 option, and arguably a #2 for a true contender. He could cement titles with he Spurs as a 3rd-ish option for the next 4 years. That's the type of player he is. At 6'7, 240, he fades-away and shoots floaters on clear dribble-drive and and-1 opportunities. Rarely is he seen at or over the rim, nor does he cut consistently enough to finish off the ball. That penchant alone makes it increasingly hard for me to enjoy him, let alone convince me that he can carry a team for a game of stretch of games. I am confident that the Hawks would have more efficient, crisp team passing and considerably more quality touches in the paint if Joe is substituted for more paint-oriented players, preferably an All-Star caliber 2 or efficient, tough 1 and 5. The entire team is affected negatively when your "best" player shows passiveness 3-5 feet away from the rack, whether he be guard, forward, or center. He has only shown emotion in the playoffs for the most part. With a good season in progress, we are still woefully under .500 with him at the helm for over 5 years. I like Woody, but he is linked to Joe and is also highly culpable for the record. If you want to blame him for the losing streaks and get rid of him also, I wouldn't mind all too much, just so long as his replacement is also a defensive-minded coach with considerably more experience i.e. age who can diversify an offense.

I'm proud of Joe, although if it were my team, I couldn't justify him going over Ray or Vincent. Of course, casual women fans know that A.I. should be nowhere near Phoenix. Rashard Lewis is well beyond a stretch. But as far as coaches' selections go, when the argument is so close in terms of who's having the better season, who's on the better team, who's has the least amount of help, injuries on the team, etc., you always go with the better players. Ray and Vince are simply better players than Joe, always have been, always will be. I can't see Joe taking a team deep into the playoffs like Ray and Vince have done.

No one has been more critical of Joe's explosiveness or lack thereof at the rack than I have. I am quite impressed with his efforts over the past week, though. He's driving with conviction, using his body, and actually getting off the ground in traffic. I was impressed with him missing a dunk shortly after the whistle, just because I didn't think he could actually attack the rim anymore. Hopefully he will keep it up and his shot chart will show considerably more attempts 1-3 feet neart he rim instead of all of the X's from 19 feet. The Hawks will be okay as long as my dude Flip is playing considerably well with considerable minutes. You can return at any time now, Al, but it's not like we need you or anything. Take your time. (No, really though, homeboy. Rush back.)

To answer the question, which Josh are you talking about? I'm convinced that there are identical twins playing for the Hawks. There's one who attacks the rack on both ends and plays off instinct. The other one thinks entirely too much and doesn't know his own game and skill set.

I routinely point out Joe's glaring flaws on numerous blogs, win or lose. We could win by 20 and he wouldn't record a single and-1. What's wrong with wanting more when your focal player has a max contract yet leaves more to be desired?

We could have a town hall debate every day on how effective Joe is, crunch numbers like nerds, evaluate the players around him from night to night, and whether you like him or don't particularly care for him. But that's the thing: he's not a player who invokes much emotion from fans. I certainly don't hate the guy, as I'm sure most detractors don't, but I simply will never love him as a Hawk. Opposing coaches of upper-echelon teams certainly don't lose sleep over the guy. They recognize he's highly skilled, which is why he is voted an All-Star by them. But to a man behind closed doors, I 'm sure they'd tell you his desire, will, and competitiveness is no match for their respective leaders, which is a testament to the team play that has the Hawks currently among the top 8 teams in the league.

Joe is a very good player, but seriously, how many passionate fans would be considerably sad to see him go? I certainly wouldn't. The guy is simply too weak near the rim and totally disappears too often. At 6'7, 240, his weak attempts inside make me literally levitate off my couch, much higher than he can jump. Who cares if he's logging huge minutes? He's getting paid huge dollars. This is basketball, people. He isn't hauling furniture or molding iron. What do you want Woody to do? Sub Speedy Claxton? (Why does he come to the games? To model?) You have to realize that the ghost of Billy Knight is hovering over this franchise and will continue to do so for some time. When injuries occur, we don't have veterans to step up from man 8-10. Deal with it. I'm not talking to those who think we have a bench past Mo and Flip. You guys are hopeless.

We're talking about a guy who has never been known, in a Hawks uniform anyway, to over-exert himself or show an All-Star caliber motor. The argument that he has to guard the other team's best perimeter player is invalid: He's considerably larger than most guards in the league and easily absorbs contact from them. For a two he is considerably slow and deliberate from end to end. Leadership seems to be non-existent. While putting up nice numbers, I never considered Joe to be the driving force behind the impressive win clip earlier this season, or at any time in his tenure, for that matter. He has yet to impress me a great deal against a quality team. I love my squad, win or lose, healthy or banged up. There was enough blame to go around tonight. As far as Woody, I certainly would've liked to see Flip down the stretch, as he drives to the hole with 10 times the tenacity of Joe, at crucial junctures. Face it, Joe apologists. He has a nice skill set, but he simply doesn't have "It." You will never catch me riding Joe's jock, even if he dropped fiddy. I am convinced that many of you Joe lovers don't remember the NBA in the late eighties and early nineties. A team sitting at 4th place in the East wouldn't dream of featuring him. Think Ron Harper. As a #1 option, he put up close to 20-5-5, on dreadful Cavaliers and Clippers teams, neither having the supporting cast of the Hawks when at full strength. As a second to fourth option, the Bulls and Lakers cruised to 4 championships. That's Joe.

I won't go as far as to say trade him right now, but if he is extended past 2010 with the abundance of more dependable, consistent, aggressive free-agents on the market, I will be highly upset unless he takes a dramatic pay-cut, enabling the GM (contingent on Sund convincing the morons in ownership to do so) to acquire a quality, mid-level, impact player. Now that he seems to have his conditioning issues solved, I occassionally dream of Dwayne Wade in a Hawks uni.

Josh, I beg of you, STOP SHOOTING JUMPERS!!!!!!!!! When will he realize that they lead to wasted possessions and extremely quick points on the other end at least 80% of the time. One minute he looks like an All-Star, the next, he's the poster child for straight-out-of-high school players, and not the LeBron type. The Jermaine O'Neal type that languish at the end of the bench for two years. I've never seen a player who can go from smoking to sickening within 8 minutes, mainly due to lapses in focus and decision-making.

With that said, it's cool. The Pistons lost, too. Hopefully we'll pound the Heat.

"Al Horford to the front desk, please. You're expertise is needed."

I agree with those who want to see him play this way consistently, not just a trend, as our last three wins have come against struggling teams with struggling defensive interiors at best. As long as he doesn't take 19 + footers, dribble behind his back/ legs, or try to lead the break, everything he does is a plus for this squad. He needs to realize that he can bang with and jump over most average-sized forwards in this league. Taking it to the rack and defending it is his niche.

I have been known to go on a rant concerning this topic, which I am very passionate about, but I 'll keep it short and sweet.

Joe has more skills than many outsiders know and is one of the most underrated on-ball and man defenders in the league. Three-ball stroke sweet as honey. But as a guy blessed with a 6'7, 240 lb frame, I feel that Joe is arguably the worst/ weakest/ least explosive finisher in the league at his size and skill set, leading to less fouls drawn, missed oppurtunities at the line, less pressure on the Defense, less motivational plays, etc, etc. There are about 15-20 players I could name around his size and smaller who finish higher, harder, and more frequently at the rack (no one quite has a frame like Joe's, with Carmelo and Pierce most comparable at 6'8, 230 and 6'7, 235, respectively). This observation over his years in Atlanta are becoming increasingly problematic to me, seeing as how he caught alley-oops, routinely challenged big men at the rack, and finished fast breaks in Phoenix until his horrific eye socket injury. Then poof, the max contract, new city, rarely seen with his hands around the rim banging bodies. I think Flip is invaluable to this squad, because he drives hard and challenges at the iron, something our starting backcourt can't/ won't do.

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

Good game from the boys. Sure, Bibby's looking like an All-Star (Allen Iverson?!?!), but when Flip is on, we're hard to beat.

"Billy Knight took my lunch money." Classic! I guess you have to laugh to keep from crying considering how he crippled our franchise for years to come.

I'm new here. Just wanted to get some poster histories on watching the Hawks. What's your best and worst memories of the Hawks? Anybody remember when 'Nique used to lag around the backcourt and wait for Mookie to steal? He'd recieve the pass, all alone, and brisk walk in the paint, only to windmill, basically flatfooted? Kinda like a George Jefferson walk, then boom. Crazy. I will never forget that guy once double-pumping backwards, in traffic from that little black block that used to be on the side of the paint. I swore he was on steroids, hard. We'll never see a dunker as passionate as him, ever. Vince, Mike, Josh, Julius. None hold a candle, although Jason Rich did admirable impressions for a few years.

My lowest memories are all the years that Shareef led the team. I did not like that guy. At all. How bout yall?

Nothing fires me up more than the silly phrase that countless "analysts" and "experts" seem to love using. Watching TNT'S Pre-Game show (watchable for me now that Charles is gone), Kenny abuses "makes his teammates better" or "look better" when referring to Kevin Garnett starting the All-Star game despite paltry numbers and less than dominant performances all season (44th scoring, 26th blocks, 12th boards, 13th %, 80th minutes.) Other than having one of the most buttery J's of any 7 footer in history, I see him as a liability a little too much on the offensive end, as he routinely is forced out of the paint. But I digress.

What do you guys think about the philosophy of "making teammates better?" Personally, it makes as much sense as shooting extra shots after practice for a teammate. When he knocks down a wide open 17 footer when you're doubled, just tell him "you're welcome." Sure, you can stay in the weightroom overtime, pump, and pass that strength along to your big man who's looking a little soft on film. Inject your stem cells into him. It happens all the time. No problem with studying extra film while your back-up is out for drinks. He can just copy your notes on paper and in your mind and apply it at the beginning of the fourth quarter while you're sitting, with great success! Hey, you're making your teammates better! Chauncey makes himself into a leader. Even Ben Wallace flourishes, makes All-Star team. Chauncey goes to Denver, is an MVP candidate. Meanwhile, Detroit searches for their primary guard, benching Rip and Ben Wallace is mostly invisible in Cleveland. Chauncey sure made those guys better, didn't he? Yeah, right. And Tim Duncan teaches agility and quickness drills to Tony Parker. LeBron has uncanny court vision, finds Wally for the most open 3 in NBA history. If he hits, "LeBron lifts his teammates." If he misses, "That's a shot Szczerbiak needs to make." What a service. If you're KG, you can just scream and yell at your boys until they cry. Wow, all of a sudden, Big Baby is so aggressive! Thanks KG! Because he plays with two possible H.O.F.s and his team is atop the league, he's making players better and should be regarded higher than Al Jefferson, who plays on an up-and-comer but "He doesn't do as much for a winning team," despite outrebounding, outscoring, outblocking, and out-everything else-ing KG on any type of minute basis. What's wrong? Telfair and McCants haven't made strides, so fault Al? Astounding. There's five stiffs on the floor, all looking at Steve Nash's dribble, and he finds Amare wide open for the dunk. Doug Collins: "He makes his teammates so much better." Really? Amare's game has been stagnant since dominating Duncan in the playoffs, what, 3 or 4 years ago? Kobe will never measure up to Michael in Magic's eyes because Mike programmed Paxon and Kerr's shooting motions into their brains. Not to mention, he stretched out Scottie's arms for better on-ball defense and reportedly slapped Horace Grant into becoming a clutch rebounder. Apparently, Kobe has some work to do with Bynum, Vujacic, and Odom.

Newsflash: Players make THEMSELVES better by WORKING at it. Chris Paul finds more open guys than anybody, but I see Tyson Chandler digressing in all areas, David West is no more solid in the paint, and Devin Brown, Peja, and Mo Peterson are all averaging below their career points standard, and are nothing to write home about defensively. Nearly every player in the NBA, even the Nesterovics and Kwame Browns, dominated their high school circuits. Now, a few years later as a man, you need a star to improve your game? Nevermind you're making more money than everybody you know combined. I would consider it a slap in the face if I were referred to as being made "better" by an outside entity other than myself. These are grown men. Benefiting from another player's prowess is the product of good coaching, management, and strategy. These guys act is if a winning or losing record isn't affected by scouting, trainers, ownership, schedule planners, dieticians, assistants, crowds, surgeons, therapists, luck, and 1,000 other things that I can't think of. As many times as I've heard this catch-phrase, I have yet to hear it explained intelligently. I'll go out on a limb and say that Charles Barkley would fail to do so, although if I hear it out of his mouth one more time I'll flip in a chair. Most of the people who love the phrase cannot analyze basketball critically (Michael Wilbon), and even those who can still beat the term into the ground (Mash, Legs, Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, Doug Collins, Bill Walton). I take what Hubie Brown says as gold, but cringe when I hear him say it occassionally. Can someone help me out, because maybe I'm missing something.

Thank you.

Hinrich's contract extends well past 2010, and right now there's only a handful of teams willing to take on a contract like that.

And, welcome, benhillboy.

'Preciate it, ex.

"Showcase" Acie? To whom, Kevin McHale? You can't showcase a guy who can't administer a proper screen, running off of it before his big man sets, forcing a moving screen foul and a turnover. Everything I 've seen from Acie screams amatuer. His best career game by far was in a loss. Like I say, McHale took Shelden, and last time I checked, he never plays. If he takes Acie, I will try to call him personally and thank him for making the same mistake twice while improving our squad. While not a Hinrich fan, I would welcome him. He rarely slacks, though I percieve focus issues. I am not the type to speculate as to how well someone would fit in, so we shall see.

What it is, people? My first post on Hawksquawk, as I was looking for a reputable, active blog. The AJC blog is silly, as are the conversation blogs on ESPN. Looks like I found it. I expect stimulating convo on my hometown squad.

Allen Iverson? I haven't been a fan since his first season when he used to catch alleys and put-back dunks in traffic. Unless Larry Brown is coaching, he's a detractor, short and long-term, mainly because he, along with Steve Nash, are easily the worst defensive MVP's in the history of the Association. Rip Hamilton? Not a shooting nor combo guard: try complimentary.

On another note, sure, the fan voting for the All-Star Team is jacked up enough, but how about some of these coach's picks? How much of a travesty is it that Szczerbiak (soft), Peja (soft), Ben Wallace (offensively offensive), Brad Miller (who?), and to a lesser extent, Okur (wierd), David West (work in progress), Jason Richardson (erratic), Ilgauskus (molasses), Rip (complimentary), and Yao (baby-bottom soft) have about 20 appearances between them, yet JASON TERRY AND MIKE BIBBY HAVE NONE!!! As a Hawks guy, I remember Jason Terry leaving limbs on the floor while his teammates (like Sha-weak Abdur) were out for drinks by the fourth quarter. Goes to Dallas and directly impacts their deep playoff runs for years to come. Then there's Mike Bibby, who helped lead the Kings very deep every year as a baby (and robbed of a Finals appearance), sees his team disband, has injury trouble, reinvents himself and comes to Atlanta and helps change the culture of a franchise. I know that certain positions are stacked and some guys have "breakthrough"/ fluke seasons, but the coaching fraternity as a whole should be ashamed of the facts stated above. Both of these guys should recieve lifetime achievement nods, and could likely light it up for about 15 or 20 and excite the game, while the guy's mentioned above could only dream of doing so.