sasuke

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/06/07/SP621JQSF0.DTL#ixzz1OmACiWSI

Dieselputer spits out that this trade will only happen with another team involved. David Lee.

Still.

The fact that we're entertaining talks means that we must have somebody we're trying to move.

I don't know if it's Smoove. David Lee is in GS. Why would they want Smoove. Moreover, Mark Jackson has publicly professed his hate for Smoove.

So here is my question for Hawks fans... and I hope the mods just don't get swept away with the title...

Is Horford an untouchable in Atlanta?

Does Horford make up what we need in the future?

What is your hope for Horford in the next 5 years?

2 words: Poison Pill............ I guess you don't know to much about it.........

That's true. I misspoke.

However, him getting to the finals was not because he answered the Bell when he played the Pistons.

His teammates stepped up to get him there.

When he found that his teammates were unable to do it again, he went and got new teammates.

Here's what MJ had to say:

“There’s no way, with hindsight, I would’ve ever called up Larry, called up Magic and said, ‘Hey, look, let’s get together and play on one team.’”

Charles Barkley seems to be in complete agreement with Michael Jordan as well.

“Mike and I are in 100 percent agreement on this,” Charles Barkley told the Arizona Republic this week. “If you’re the two-time defending NBA MVP, you don’t leave anywhere. They come to you. That’s ridiculous. I like LeBron. He’s a great player. But I don’t think in the history of sports you can find a two-time defending MVP leaving to go play with other people.”

I saw the whole series & I have to agree with this article: I don't know what NBA Diesel is watching, but is not the same we do.

Since you did give a serious answer, i will give a serious response.

I don't think Howard could do it. He's not a natural scorer. Moreover, the lane would be clogged and you're asking Josh to be your shooter? Finally, we don't know enough about Teague. We've seen him in one series against one guy. You think he's now championship level?

Dirk is interesting but now there's a huge logjam of softness. At least with Howard, you could almost matchup with Chicago.

Sorry but Bron couldn't win with Cleveland.

our current team JJ-less > Bron-less Cavs, even my dog knows this.

Wade is interesting but no.

Why not? LMFAO!!!

Kobe couldn't win with a better frontcourt and a better coach.

True, still Kobe > than JJ & if you think not you better drop the pot.

CP3 is good for floor management but he's doubled by game 2 and there's nobody to pass to who will get you scores.

CP3 will turn Al & Smoove in 20+ ppg players. CP# > than JJ & JJ-less Hawks > CP3-less Hornets, period

Deron = Next..

Same as CP3

Melo = Are you kidding me??

Melo > than JJ, not rocket science.

Rose = Next.

Let me know when JJ becomes an MVP candidate, & he's almost 9 years younger.

Dirk

Durant? Please.

please what? Durant > than JJ & is almost 10 years younger.

The bottom line is that when you see the problem the problem is in the lack of skillset in the front court. .

The bottom line is that you're looking like a joke with all the nonsense arguments you're making. Seriously, the more you try to defend JJ, the more credibility you're loosing. I think it's time to give it a rest

PS:

Bron

Wade

Kobe

CP3

Deron

Howard

Melo

Rose

Dirk

Durant

Most of them make less than JJ

Pierce was/is the #1 option in Boston.

If Ice Cube did it, any one can.

Otis Smith

Honorable mention; Crawford & Twin

Are some of you guys comparing JJ to KG?????????

Wow, just when I thought I've seen it all...................

You said:

Here's what I need you to understand. We could have a trillion dollars in TPE, Cold Hard Cash, or Money under the cap. The result is going to be that we would still have to overpay for a free agent and without Joe, it is more than likely that we will not be able to get a superstar here... no matter how much money we have.

I know this because we've been here before. We've done the experiment. We have observed the results...and some of us have remembered that when have money, it's is damn near impossible to attract players to this franchise.

We are not some storied franchise with a stable ownership and a track record of doing what it takes to win a championship. We are a team with "green" owners who may have their hearts in the right place, but do not have the juice among the players to excite them or to validate the claim that we want to win.

Well, with the TPE you take a player on a trade, not sign them so the overpaying statement doesn't apply. But, in case of we under the cap or using the TPE, the idea is to get a player that, may be overpayed but, isn't as much as Joe ALLOWING US TO USE THE MLE OR TO TAKE ON MORE SALARY IN OTHER DEALS WITHOUT PAYING THE TAX.

That's #1.

Secondly. You may ask, why is that the reputation with all of our playoff appearances...

Well, take a look. Who is our coach?

We have had 2 assistant coaches that had never coached a team under these owners. Most championship teams have coaches that have been to a finals before.

Players know this. Star players know this all too well. Rookie coaches rarely go that far.

Thirdly.

Have you looked at what's going on in the league. We are entering the era of the superteams. You know Boston's big three. Miami's big three. NY is tryin to get a Big three. The Lakers had a big three. What does Atlanta have?? Lately, it's been Joe carrying a bunch of young players who can't create for themselves. The fact that Joe didn't take his talents to NY is amazing to me. Young teams rarely win anything. That's why this summer, Chicago will sell off most of their talented youth for a Star SG... and will have their big three. That's why Orlando will do all that it can to get CP3 so that it can have something like a big three.

Instead of us noticing what is happening in the league, you want to dilute our talent because of his contract?

Really?

Seriously?

He's still the best & most consistent player we have and the playoffs proved that.

Here's my thing. If you sell off Joe the way you describe, we will get younger but we will have no consistency. It will be 2006 all over again.

If we, a smaller market with currently no assets & with our current ownership, wanted to have a big 3 the only way to realistically do it is by blowing the team up & do it trough the draft. Like it or not, it is what it is. With different ownership, things could be different.

And the reason Joe didn't go to NY was cuz of the only way to get the 6th year of his contract (120 mill) is trough us by signing or by S&T. Don't make him look like a saint when he isn't.

You just said... who is going to give up their 1a for what we have.... You said that.

now you believe our answer is SNT without Joe??

How the heck are you going to S&T Joe without Joe????????? Read my previous post.

sasuke... be consistent.

If teams don't like our other players when we have Joe.

Nothing changes when we don't have him. (give me my +1 there).

I'm talking about S&T JJ, what the heck are you talking about???????

And you can neg me all you want I don't care about the +/-. worrying about that is childish.

Secondly.

Either you have to admit that we do have quality players to trade with and that building a team around our best players with a plan makes the most sense... or You have to admit that you just don't like Joe and you want him gone regardless of what we do. With that second admission, you also have to admit that you have no idea if moving Joe for the likes of Chandler will put us for enough in the lottery to even make a difference nor you have no idea of how it will effect our championship possibilities.

Let me paint this picture for you.

We trade Joe to NY for Chandler ...

Now, NY has:

Amare, Carmelo, and Joe. (and a better shot at CP3 than most other teams).

How on God's green earth are you going to land CP3 with 3 max contract on the cap already?????? It's not MLB, sorry.

Now... Miami has:

their big three.

Now Chicago has it's team game.

Now Boston has It's aging big three with Green.

But the lowly Hawks have... Nobody who can create for themselves and 15 Million in capspace.

What cap space are you talking about??????

Here's the jeopardy question for you...

How long will it take the Hawks going back to the drawing board before they are competitive again??

We certainly would have to wait out this generation.

I hope you understand why your plan is so ridiculous.

Ok, you're missing 3 letters: T.....P......E

Utah got it for Boozer, Cavs for James & Raptors for Bosh.

Utah used it to get Big Al, Cavs are pushing hard to use it & Raptors just don't care about it cuz they want to be under the cap.

Players previously or currently on the block due to salary dump to use TPE with picks/JC2/other players on:

Baron Davis

Rip Hamilton

Iggy

Big Al

Gerald Wallace

Mayo

With Davis we are talking Bibby out & THE 1RST OVERRAL PICK in. Draft or trade, your choice.

With Rip, the 8th pick in (Trade with Cavs didn't happened cuz Rip refused to go to the Cavs). Draft or trade, your choice.

NY S&T: JJ for 16 mill TPE (don't ignore it), Chandler & room for MLE player without paying tax if TPE not used completely.

Bulls S&T: JJ for Deng, who is more worth of his contract than JJ of his & on his prime, & the chance to sign an MLE player without paying tax.

Understood?

My problem is not with JJ, is with his max contract with a penny pincher organization just on the verge of getting out of his prime, when freaking prime LeBron James took less money to give his team more flexibility. Nothing against Joe, who I think is a great 1b or 2nd option, call it like you want.

.

You seem to forget all the flexibility we had before and with JJ. It amounted to a hill of beans. Why? Because we didn't have enough salary to play in the big boy leagues. Remember? We had no chance at any of the big name trades because we couldn't offer relief. Our best chance of getting a superstar was through the draft. We blew it. Not having JJ wouldn't change that. We still wouldn't have a chance at a superstar.

And you seem to forget the sign & trade.

That contract is not a hinderance to us getting a 1a.

Not when we have:

Marvin Williams - 8 Million.

Hinrich - 10 Million.

Zaza - 5 Million.

That's 23 Million coming off the bench.

Then we have :

Josh = 10 Million

Horf = 10 Million (to be).

20 more million in players that can't create for themselves.

So that's 43 More million beside Joe that is really all tradable.

You're damning Joe's contract, but do you damn all the stuff he does on the court for this team too?

Take away Joe and this team is lottery bound.

Just imagine though. If one superstar either Howard or Paul said they really wanted to play in Atlanta. And we have 43 Million dollars that we can use to trade for them..

The results - if we do it right.. would be a team that will compete for a title.

Aren't you tired of Joe trying to win with:

Acie, Salim, Kenny Andersen, Old *ss Kevin Willis, Antoine Walker, Jason Collins, Jason Collier, and the host of ham and eggers he has been expected to win with?

The truth as I see it is that everytime Josh lines up for a 3, Joe ought to run over there and slap the Stuffings out of him.. Maybe then, Joe would earn more of that damned contract.

Who is going to give us their 1a for what we have? Usually teams that want to rebuild are the ones that give up their 1a, & to get them you need quality picks, expirings, young prospects under rookie contracts & cash. We just have Hinrich expiring & that's it. Teague is a young prospect under rookie contract but you don't want to trade him after what you saw against the bulls, do you? You can make a case if we say Al & josh can gives a REAL 1a between the 2 of them, but who? Deron Williams? Chris Paul? DH12? Only in your imagination with your "out of the cereal box" trades.

Life without JJ.........let see:

A sign & trade to NY could've give you Chandler & a 15 mill TPE & the chance to sign an MLE player without paying tax if TPE not used completely.

A sing & trade to Chicago could've give you Deng, who is more worth of his contract than JJ of his & on his prime, & the chance to sign an MLE player without paying tax.

In 2 or 3 years, if things didn't pan out, it would've been easier to rebuild, retool, recore? since there will be no player earning 18 mill + on his 30s that nobody will want.

All that it's called flexibility, and JJ's contract took it from us.

Marvin will give you nothing in return, & maybe will cost you a pick to get rid of him & still get nothing in return.

I don't have a problem with Hinrich staying here or being shipped for a better player.

I think that Zaza's contract is pure gold considering how other bigs are getting paid more by doing the same or less than him if we take out the ones under the rookie scale(dahh!). He should be a keeper.

I will conclude with the following statement: to win a championship you need a 1a and 1b plus a supporting cast build around them. You can't win it with just one of those. That's why James, Wade & Bosh took less money so they could have the flexibility to get a good supporting cast.

I think that using Shaq to discuss Smoove's dos & don'ts is the wrong approach. There's just nothing alike. No sense at all. I think if used a prime Shaun Marion, for example, this topic would be a complete different story. Not that Marion was a beast on the paint, but, a more accurate comparison.

Just trade the pick with Chill's TPE for a role player.

Sund's best move this season was not to sign Shaq.

Who else is going to be the 1rst option? Al doesn't get enough touches, Smoove has no BB IQ, Crawford is not consistent & a ball-hog. Of course, JJ with his contract taking almost one third of our cap there's no way you can have another 1b or 1c. Coursed the day, hour, minute, second, millisecond & nanosecond in which Sund handed out that damned contract. So, there you have it ,for the next 5 years, your #1 option that in his prime din't do it, don't think he can do it now or later.

Actually, Pierce is not overrated. He is just not that good. Go back to the Antoine Walker days. He shined because Walker sucked and was a volume shooter. Anybody who plays conservatively while being along side a volume shooter who shoots everything from outside will shine. Pierce is not underrated because when he was made " Lead DOG" he put up great numbers and his team won only 24 games. And he had Rondo and Al Jefferson. Here's the truth. Peirce is a really good player but not MVP level and not a superstar. He can fit in well with KG and Allen because they allow him to be better.

I disagree, but If you replace Pierce with JJ in your scenario he won't do better than Pierce.

Let me help you understand why we don't run offense through Al.

1. Al isn't a great passer.

Not great but good enough. no need to be great

2. Al doesn't have a consistent post move.

I'll give you that.

3. Al is a high post scorer who has to be given the ball in his spot to be effective.

Then feed him in the right spot, dahhh!!!!!

4. Al does not create for himself.

You don't need to create for yourself if the team has a good offensive scheme, which it hasn't.

The point that Amare Stoudamire proved is that if I stop Al from getting to his spot, he will not do anything. Noah and Gibson also forced that on Al. Al has spots that he's good from but he doesn't do well just giving the ball and told to go score or to make something happen. We only have 3 guys on this team that can do that. Lopez on the other hand can get the ball in the post and because he has big man moves he can make something happen. Al is as uncomfortable as a hooker in church when he gets the ball in the low post.

Give me Al's defensive game, energy & rebound over Lopez offensive game any day.

Tell me... How is Marvin equivalent to Trevor Ariza?

Role players, Ariza a bit better defender, Marvin is a bit better offensive player & way more athletic than Ariza. Ariza has one more year on his ugly contract.

We're not talking about Hopes are wishes or potential... Marvin's time for all that is over. We're talking about what has he done? Marvin has done nothing. Marvin doesn't make an impact. NON Whatsoever.

I don't have any hopes of Marvin being a superstar in the future. Role player at best. But you are higher on him than I am cuz of the trade value that your think he has. I think he has no value.

Trading him and Ray Allen were extremely smart moves by my favorite GM in the NBA Sam Presti. He knew that Ray was aging and didn't need to be the lead dog any longer, and he knew that Lewis would never live up to the contract he was going to get. Instead of sinking that cost, Sam thought conservatively and flipped those guys into much more affordable players. Now, Sam has one of the youngest and most talented teams in the NBA. His one misstep may have been that he failed to see how much Kendrick Perkins would hurt their offense. He ultimately ended up overpaying Perkins, who should be little more than a rotational big man who is a defensive counterpart to an offensive center.

That is what Sund could've done in regards of Joe, but he didn't & now we are doomed for 5 more years.

I think he's just showing the list of the highest paid players in the league and mentioning that a lot of them are overpaid.

Lebron and Wade are the biggest bargains in the league. It angers me that they both play for the same team. It would've been so much better had one gone to New York. Heat and Knicks rivalry renewed and more parity in the EC. The Hawks would be legit contenders or at least closer to the top then what we have now.

He said "Dirk is underpaid" in the topic description. I think LeBron is underpaid too. Now, I think Joe Johnson & diarrhea symptoms start right away.

We are not going to agree on the values we place on players... That much is evident.

Pierce's team won 24 games total while he put up big points. Pierce wasn't a better player, he was the best option. It was Iso Paul all day.

Pierce is one of the most underrated players in recent history. He was a beast offensively & defensively . He was as much, if not more clutch than Kobe. Despite having KG & Allen, he was their best player in the finals with such a great performance that at the end landed him the finals MVP. JJ can't ever do that in such a stacked team like Boston was.

We don't agree about the following:

Horf vs. Lopez.

Lopez is just better. He's younger, bigger, faster. Horf rebounds better ,but that's the only thing Horf does in the post.

I'm a 100% sure that if we run our offense trough Al( which I can't understand why isn't happening ) the same way NJ runs their offense trough Lopez you would take that back. Lopez is the go to guy in NJ & here Al is behind JJ, Jamal & Smoove on the offensive end. Lopez is butter.

Each of the guys mentioned are 7 footers with low post offense and they play defense.

Two things that Horf doesn't excel at.

Taking out Lopez, I understand that, & that's why I don't think that those trades are realistic options, but some how you do.

You say Bogut is close is a joke right??

Bogut = More rebounds, twice as many blocks...

I said when injured is close, & I meant in terms of how much they can help their team win but not how, cuz they play way different from each other. But I also said that when Bogut is healthy is better than Al ( > means better) & that's why I don't think the trade make sense for the Bucks.

Please don't tell me that you believe that Marvin is equivalent to Ariza or Pietrus?

Yes, I am.

Capn Jack is on the trade blocks. They'd easily do Jack for Hinrich.

Maybe Hinrich and Marvin for Jack and Diaw.

They passed on Butler & a 1rst for Jack. Maybe if we are lucky, Hinrich & a 1rst can get it done. But man, getting Marvin & Diaw involved doesn't have any logic. That will be a swap of expirings + a swap of a bad contract (Marvin) that they don't want or need for a better contract & player in Jack. Now, don't know if having iso Joe & iso Jack, or the combination of attitudes of Smoove & Jack is going to change things for good. We shouldn't have a run & gun front court with iso players on the wing. That is like oil & water.

1. That's debateble.

2. We have to be willing to let go some of these players who have more value than a #5 pick to get what we need.

3. See #2.

4. See #2... but more importantly, if you have a plan... you don't really need a KG. For instance, we need a big who can rebound and defend. If you add Dalembert to this team as is.... we will be in the next echelon of teams.

However, I think that we will have to formulate a plan and be willing to sacrifice if need be in order to get to the championship level.

Lastly, your thoughts on switching our best player for other players of equal value isn't going to do much..... is wrong.

We have holes in the fundamental makeup of our team. Very specifically... we have 2 PFs. Neither has a low post game (consistent). We have problems defending Bigs. We live and die by our ability to rebound. We get nothing from our Sf position. Our offensive game plan is still undefined. We lack high basketball IQ at may positions.

Having a plan means being truthful about our limitations and making moves to fix that. If we could make a lateral move like trading Horford for Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, or Marc Gasol you don't think we'd be better? If we could get a Sf like Stephen Jackson, M. Pietrus, or Trevor Ariza. You don't think we'd be better?

We just have to be willing to look deep into the mirror and make the hard choice while the window is still open.

1 - It isn't. Pierce @ that time > JJ now & then, period.

2 - Seattle wanted to rebuild trough the draft & to get under the cap, so in a similar situation your scenario isn't going to get it done.

3 & 4 - So, there's NY, Miami & us offering the same $ to Dalembert. You really think he's going to end up here??????? No, hell no. Isn't happening. Sorry. Howard isn't coming here & neither CP3. Let's get real.

Horford is better than Lopez, no thanks. Bogut is close to Al when injured, but healthy is > Al so I don't think that Bucks will do it in real life. Marc Gasol > Al & don't make sense for Memphis to do that trade. How are you going to get captain Jack? We have our Pietrus & our Ariza, his name is Marvin Williams & is overpaid. We don't need another overpaid player like Ariza or Marvin, no thanks.

Give me something feasible that can, indeed, make us contenders with the posibility of loosing our six man & other teams also getting better.

LeBron???????

First of all, we have very good peices for trade. We are not inflexible.

Just the other day, I read guys saying what a great player Zaza would be to trade for?

Then there's Joe, Josh, Horf, Craw, and Teague. There's also Zaza, Hinrich, Teague, and Marvin.

We are not inflexible. Anybody is tradable.

We have lots of good pieces that teams want. That is how business is done in the NBA. When have the Lakers every rebuilt from the draft? You do it with trade. However, in order to build a championship team, you have to have a plan.

Danny Ainge's plan was to get Allen, KG, and Peirce together. He was willing to give up picks and Al Jefferson.

The only way we become inflexible is when we start putting players who are not producing what we need.... on the untouchable list.

We were inflexible when it came to Marvin and Josh for the last 6 years. We are inflexible as it relates to Horf.

However ,what we need is to evaluate what they bring and where we lack and see if we should trade and how we should build.

We do have flexibility.

The question is, do we have a plan and are you ready to sacrifice.

1 - JJ isn't better than Pierce was back then.

2 - Where is our # 5 overall pick & our cap space to get our Allen?

3 - Who will be our KG that would sign the extension here & not on other big market if we give up Al?

4 - How are you going to manage realistically our cap situation so we can ad role players after the trade for our KG?

Switching our best players for other players with equal talent isn't going to do too much. We need to add talent while keeping our best players & we don't have cap space &/or attractive picks to do so. How could we do it????????

No...

I'm saying don't look at being in the 2nd round of the playoffs with a young team like every team can do that.

I'm saying don't throw the baby out with the Bathwater.

I'm saying don't forget the 10 yrs we waited the last time we rebuilt.

I'm saying don't mistake something that takes a tweak or two for something that takes a rebuild.

Do you run to get a new engine everytime your car needs a tuneup?

Do you go to buy a new computer everytime your virus protection program says that you may have a virus?

Do you go out and find a new wife after you and your current wife have an argument?

Rebuilding would be a rash over reaction that is not guaranteed to do anything but prolong our championship hopes and probably lose in the process.

With JJ's contract taking like something close to 30% of our cap, exiting his prime & entering the decline, a 8 mill bad contract in Marvin, no cash & non attractive picks to package, a ownership reluctant to spend on tax. I'll going to ask you this: What on God's green earth can you do to turn this team in to a contender with no flexibility? You can't get anything back for Marvin, & for Joe........best case scenario maybe Gasol or Deng but still sounds not very realistic cuz, man, JJ's contract is just way to much for what he does. What can we do REALISTICALLY?

Just sign Haddadi, isn't going to cost you anything. The guy is freaking underrated.

The 2012 draft class is said to be incredibly deep. If we really want to start doing things the right way...............this upcoming season is the right one to blow it up & tank.