SportsGuy

Thanks dude. That was awesome! 'Nique will forever be the greatest dunker in NBA history. MJ, Doc, and all the rest can kiss his...

Haha! Thanks for the kudos guys. I'll post as much as I can, but life gets busy for me once the school year starts up again (I'm a teacher). We'll see what happens. It's nice to some people actually read what I've written. lol

I CAN differentiate and if you look at my post I did qualify it by saying "I know it's a different sport, but." I guess you didn't take the time to read that. And I also made reference to Battier in terms of collegiate basketball awards as predictors of professional success. Battier was all everything in college with awards and such. What has he done in the NBA that's so meaningful? "But what about him as a Wooden Award Finalist. Wooden first teamer. Team USA Male player of the year. World University games MVP. - Actually beat out Foye for this distinction. Seeing that you think coaches don't care enough to have integrity what about all this other hardward. You think this too is meaningless?" Yes Diesel, they are meaningless as I've already stated. I said all collegiate AWARDS are meaningless as predictors of professional success. One has no bearing on the other as they are different LEAGUES against different COMPETITION. You're forcing me to be redundant. To be clear, I am saying collegiate AWARDS are meaningless not collegiate PERFORMANCE. And unfortunately we'll have to end this discussion. I'm headed out of town to Michigan this afternoon. You wanted a debate so you got one. You feel you've proven your point and I feel I've proven mine. Let's just leave it at that and let fellow Squawkers make up their own minds.

Thanks for your post. I appreciated your lack of condescension about my number of posts and you made some good points.

To your second point. No I don't believe in collegiate awards as they indicate very little about a player's ability to compete in the pros. I know it's a different sport, but Charlie Ward won the Heisman in college. He never played a down in the NFL because he knew his height would be a problem in the NFL. Since you believe in the awards and I don't, I guess we can end that discussion. "I think you ought to give (the coaches) a little more credit than that." -I don't. You really think they give a crap about being objective with award distribution? They go with the guys they've heard of. Hell, Shane Battier won the award for jumping in front of people and falling down. He was the biggest flopper I've ever seen, but he got the award since everyone claimed he was a good defender. Awards are meaningless to me, especially defensive awards since they are so hard to measure. "When you said that players will go around Shelden the same way they went around Zaza... It's cut and dry, plain and simple that you are suggesting that Shelden's defense is going to be as weak as Zaza's. NO, I do not have a direct quote of you saying that verbatim. But let's not play word games and let's not try to change what you have said after the fact. You have suggested that Williams defense will be as weak as Zaza's and that's just plain funny. I would get my laugh on, but I want you to see this seriously. Shelden will be better than Zaza defensively. Shelden will be better than Al defensively. Shelden will play defense against PFs better than Smoove." Did you take the time to read what I wrote? You put words in my mouth again. I said players would go around the other Hawks defenders and hang Shelden out to dry. This is the same thing that happened to Zaza, Harrington, etc. last year. Shelden will undoubtedly do a better job compensating for his teammates than Zaza and others, but it won't be a significant improvement. That's where we disagree. But I never said players would go around Shelden the same as they go around Zaza. You are playing word games sir. You continue to insinuate things that aren't true about my posts. Below is what I originally said. "The team's defense...Josh Smith is a good HELP defender. He gets beat constantly on defense. Why do you think the lane opens up so badly? Nobody gets intimidated by him. They go around him and dunk on Zaza. Just like they'll go around him and dunk on Williams or get fouled by Williams." -It's more of a criticism of Josh Smith than of Shelden, or Zaza for that matter. Please tell me where in that quote I said defenders will go past Williams. Williams will get dunked on at some point this season more than once. You can't deny that and being a rookie he will be charged with his fair share of fouls. You can't deny that either. He will be an improvement, but not a significant one as you believe. It's like me improving a grade back when I was in college. I moved it up from an 82 to an 85. It's an improvement, but does it hold any importance? No. The height thing coincided with wingspan by the way. I apologize if I was unclear. I had already made reference to that, but I guess you didn't insinuate that particular time. Height AND wingspan do matter. Most of the time taller guys have longer wingspans. This is true of Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor in comparison to Williams. They all have longer wingspans than Shelden. That's fairly common knowledge. At least we seem to be narrowing down the points of contention.

Sure I'll be around, but what's with the taunting about my number of posts. Just because I don't spend every waking hour reading and posting on Hawksquawk my opinion is meaningless? What a great guy you must be. Everyone bow down to the guy only known by the alias Diesel. Gimme a break. I used to post on the old AJC Hawks' board before you ever came around. So don't hold my post count on this board against me. "At no time did I compare ppg from 1990 to ppg of 2006." That's exactly what you're doing when you compare a player from that year to a player that will begin play this year. Can't you see that? What you did is compare the impacts of centers defensively in the league fifteen years ago. Show me the impacts of power forwards defensively in the last five years. Ben Wallace I'm guessing had an impact and Elton Brand. If Shelden does similar things I'll gladly eat my crow, but he's not at the level of Brand or Wallace. Surely you can see that. "What I did was show the impact of a rookie player for his team from 1991 to 1992 and another one from 1992 to 1993. Did the game change so significantly over that 1 year period that what I showed you was irrelevant? If that's the case, then there's no need in us talking about effect of a rookie on defense huh? Game might make another drastic 1 year CHANGE!" -What the hell are you talking about? Again you showed the impacts of rookie CENTERS fifteen years ago. And I've already told you they were taller with longer wingspans than Shelden. And it's different eras. Mutumbo reduced the points per game by 23.2 as you've already stated. Do you honestly think that if Mutumbo was a rookie coming to the Hawks this year he'd drop the Hawks ppg allowed to 69.8? That's crazy. If you want to talk percentage decrease that's fine, but don't give me ppg crap. Different eras make it impossible for any rookie coming into the league to drop ppg by 23.2 points for an entire team. Simply put, teams don't score that much per game anymore to have a decrease that large. That's why I'm saying you can't compare Mutumbo's numbers to anyone coming into the league these days. Understand? And at no time did I ever mention Chad Ford. Stephen A. Smith, Jay Bilas, Greg Anthony, Scoop Jackson, Chris Broussard, the list goes on and on disgreed with the pick or disagreed with Shelden being taken that high based on the other needs of the Hawks. Don't put names in my mouth. I never said Chad Ford. I hate that guy. He's a pompous idiot. d*ck Vitale screamed last year we should've taken Paul. He was right. Analysts do know what they're talking about sometimes. "So now, you want anybody to believe that Williams is equal to Zaza defensively? That's what you're suggesting..." Again, you putting words in my mouth. I never said Williams was as bad as Zaza. You like to read into things to support your arguments don't you. All I'm suggesting is that Williams will be the poor sucker that gets blamed next season for the defensive defiencies of his teammates just like Zaza did last year. Is Zaza a good defender? Haha, no. Is Williams better? Yes. Significantly better in his jump to the NBA? No, because he'll still be just another rookie in the NBA and again he's not a center. You brush that off, but those 3-plus inches in height that differs between Shelden and Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor matters. And how much do trophies in college impact a player's contributions in the pros? None. Haven't you seen all the washout/hasbeen Heisman trophy winners in the NFL. Or the good college players that did relatively nothing in the NBA? Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams, Sam Bowie, Marcus Fizer, Eddie Griffin, Alan Henderson, Juwan Howard Since you don't seem to mind doing research, post the defensive players of the year award winners at the power forward position in the last 30 years so we can compare their college careers to their pro careers. "2005-06 NABC Board of Directors Oliver Purnell, President (Clemson University) Jim Boeheim, First Vice President (Syracuse University) Orlando "Tubby" Smith, Second Vice President (University of Kentucky)/a> Willis Wilson, Third Vice President (Rice University) Dale Clayton, Fourth Vice President (Carson-Newman College) Jim Burson, 2005-06 Past President (Muskingum College) Pat Kennedy, 2004-05 Past President (Towson University) Kelvin Sampson, 2003-04 Past President (University of Oklahoma) Tom Izzo, Director (Michigan State University) Dave Odom, Director (University of South Carolina) Ernie Kent, Director (University of Oregon) d*ck Davey, Director (Santa Clara University) Larry Gipson, Director (Northeastern State University) Barry Collier, Director (University of Nebraska) Page Moir, Director (Roanoke College) Philip Martelli, Director (St. Joseph's University) Ron Hunter, Director (IUPUI) Jeff Jones, Director (American University) Bill Self, Director (University of Kansas) Paul Hewitt, Director (Georgia Tech) Bo Ryan, Director (University of Wisconsin) Jim Haney, NABC Executive Director" You say Shelden played against most of these guys. I count five he played against more than once. And most of these schools suck for basketball competition. American? IUPUI? Roanoke? St. Joe's (without Nelson)? Nebraska? Northeastern? Santa Clara? Who have they had besides Nash in the last 20 years? Towson? Muskingum? Carson-Newman? Rice? You gotta be out of your mind. These guys are good judges of basketball talent? And how many games do you think they have time to watch to be a fair judge of this? These are the same head coaches that have one of their assitant coaches vote in the Top 25 coaches poll because they don't have time to do it themselves. Collegiate awards are won on stats and reputation, not actual game play. There are really good players that get overlooked for awards because they don't play at Duke or Kentucky or Kansas or Indiana. Thus, they don't get media attention. It sucks. But Shelden is not as good as Sampson or Duncan when they came out of college. You find me someone of significance that agrees with your comparison to Duncan and Sampson and I'll never post on this board again. My comparisons to Oakley and the Davis guys have to do with position and similar ability level. I liked the comparisons based on size as well (although that's being generous considering those guys are still taller than Williams) so I used them. So what? You can laugh at my posts all you want, but I'm not as bad at this debate thing as you make me out to be. And didn't you ask to be debated in the first place? Why be an ass about it when you get what you asked for?

that bashed the damn pick. You found ONE guy that liked the pick. You'll have a difficult time finding another one. Did anyone catch Scoop Jackson's chat bashing the pick and the organization? Anyone, anyone?

Hahahahahahaha!!!! Please pass whatever you're smokin'! You compare Shelden Williams to Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor? All three of these guys were consensus top 4 picks. Nobody pegged Williams as even top 10 except Billy Knight. How many analysts pegged those guys as potential all-stars? A lot. How many have pegged Williams as such? Nodody. All defensive teamer? Again, nobody. And how far back in the basketball annals did you have to go to get those stats? All the way back to when much of the league's teams averaged over a 100 ppg. You're humorous. I'll give ya that. You cannot compare the scoring differential of the early 90s with that of today. Teams averaged well over 100 ppg game back then. Now just a handful reach that plateau. It's apples and oranges. They're both fruits, but they sure as hell don't look or taste the same. Neither does the NBA of the early 90s to present day. Mutumbo, Mourning, and Okafor are all taller with longer wingspans than Shelden and centers as well. Good comparisons for Shelden have been made. A poor man's Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis etc. These are not defensive all-stars. These are adequate players but not guys that will turn around a defense. Okafor was a consensus #1 pick and dominated in the NCAA tournament two years in a row if I remember correctly. Shelden did no such thing. As it has been pointed out, Shelden had some really downer games against comparable big men during his stay at Duke. Killingsworth, Hansborough, Williams...the list goes on. The ACC was also very weak in terms of its big men. He mostly played against less talented SF that tried to post him inside. He'll get no such luxury in the NBA. The team's defense...Josh Smith is a good HELP defender. He gets beat constantly on defense. Why do you think the lane opens up so badly? Nobody gets intimidated by him. They go around him and dunk on Zaza. Just like they'll go around him and dunk on Williams or get fouled by Williams. Childress? Please. The guy couldn't guard my grandma if she was holding a sack of groceries. Marvin? No comment. These are not good individual defensive players right now. You mentioned Dallas. Dallas was very poor defensively up until this year. And don't give me this crap about Miami winning with its defense shutting down the Mavs. The Heat won because of one player, Wade. Anybody that watched that series will tell you Dallas dominated Miami every game, but they couldn't figure out how to stop Wade. Which is why you draft a Foye or Roy. A guy that can overcome a defense. Emphasize your area of greatest strength. Make it better. The Hawks offense is not that bad. It could be good with another playmaking guard besides JJ. Defense is a mentality. Dallas didn't have it until Avery Johnson willed it into those players. Woodson will have to do the same for the Hawks. Or he won't and he'll get fired. Players athletic enough to score a bunch of points can be taught defense. You can't teach offensive ability. Either a guy has it or he doesn't. Defense is mostly mental. It can be taught. But putting it on the shoulders of a 6'8" (if that) rookie is laughable. It doesn't matter if you shoot 49% from the field if you turn the ball over and don't get to the free throw line. It means the other team will still get more shots than you and outscore you. It's not about the best percentage. It's about the most points scored from the field and from the line, period. Get a good PG so your'e best player (JJ) can move without the ball and be in more advantageous positions to score. The same with Smith, Childress (Lord knows he can't shoot of the dribble), and Marvin. As good as Wade is he still got help with Payton, Jason Williams, etc. with ballhandling duties and running the offense. He had/has good compliments to his game because he has guards he can count on. JJ does not. Childress is no playmaker. Neither is Lue or Ivey or (fill in the blank). JJ has no guards than he can count on. I certainly disagree about the talent level of Dallas under Nellie and under AJ. It's about the same, but I do give credit above to AJ for putting that defensive mentality into the players. Phoenix got Bell and Thomas for depth. Nothing more and nothing less. Thomas would've barely played if Stoudamire had been healthy. And the clothesline Bell gave Kobe showed you his idea of defense. You helped me make my point though. It's not the players in regards to defense. It's the coach. Dirk played under both Nellie and AJ. When did he decide to play defense? Under AJ. The Hawks don't need new players as much as they need a new philosophy from their coach (or just a new coach)if that's your argument. Teams outgun because that's what they're good at. Teams try to outplay the other team with defense because they have less talented offensive players. Temple University is the biggest example of this. In the NBA the San Antonio team that beat the Knicks in 2000 is a good example of that. Robinson, Duncan, and old Sean Elliot manage to win the whole thing? They won with defense because they had little to no talent on offense as team. "20th in assists is still not LAST. However, we're near the bottom in every defensive category. We're a good looking woman that's bleeding to death and you want the Dr. to give us Implants." No, it's not last but it's near the bottom. And yet the team still averaged 97 ppg with one playmaker. Imagine if the Hawks had two. Who in the East would be able to stop us offensively? And how many PPG would this team average if it jumped into the top 10 in assists? How many droughts did this team go into offensively last year? A lot. Mostly when JJ left the game. That shouldn't happen. The offense shouldn't roll over and die when one guy leaves the game. That's what happens when you don't have a PG to run an offense. So ithout a playmaking PG we'll still be 20th in assists and still be LAST in most defensive statistics. Why? Because now we have a rotation problem at the 3, 4, and 5 spots with guys playing out of position. The Hawks aren't a bleeding woman. They're a bunch of talented actors without a director to tell them where to go and what to do.

I don't like Ford, but I agree with his analysis of the Hawks. Emphasize your strengths. Don't make up excuses to try and cover up weaknesses. Phoenix fans are going to have a field day with us Hawks fans next year.

Because sometimes in life you have to emphasize your strengths instead of covering up your weaknesses to succeed. One GD rookie is not going to turn the defense around. You think opposing players are going to be intimidated by a 6'8" PF not named Ben Wallace? They will drive the land consistently and the refs will not give a rookie the benefit of the doubt. My guess is Williams, given the playing time, will foul out more times than he has double-doubles. What's wrong with outgunning the other team. Who says we can't win games scoring 105 ppg and giving up 101.9 ppg? It can be done. You can outrun the other team. See Phoenix, Dallas, Sacramento (prior to last year). And it makes for much more entertaining basketball and a fuller arena. Who cares if we can't survive all the way through to the championship? This would be exciting and give the team time to work on its defense ala Dallas so they could make a championship run in a few years. The talent is on this roster (without Shelden) that a PG could emphasize the offensive strengths of the team for years to come. And you hit the nail on the head. 20th in assists...imagine if we had an effing PG how many PPG we could average. It would boost our assist totals by at least 4 or 5 per game. Nobody would be able to run with the Hawks in the East with that kind of firepower.

a rookie will be a defensive presence? You think the refs will give Williams the benefit of the doubt because he was a good defender in college? Are ya insane? And one player will not turn around a defense. It takes a willingness as a team to become better. Take a look at Dallas. The same basic collection of players finally decided to play some defense this year and guess what? They should've won the whole damn thing. They outplayed the Heat. Wade just willed his team to victory. It happens. Which is why you go for offense if you're the Hawks. Take Roy and try to outgun the other teams like the Suns. It's not like the Hawks are just trying to add a piece to win the whole damn thing. They're just trying to make the playoffs. Playing uptempo was this team's only chance. Now that's gone. No PG, no playmaking SG. Just a run of the mill 6'8" forward. Knight just maintaining the status quo. He does realize it's not against the rules to draft a guy taller or shorter than 6'8" doesn't he? I'm ready for Belkin.

I'm with ya man. The only thing worse than tonight as a Hawks fan was 'Nique being traded. Give me Belkin so Knight can hit the road. Giminy Christmas he sucks!

Just say NO to Rondo. I'm a Louisville fan so I've followed Rondo the last couple years. He wanted to play at U of L but knew he wouldn't get playing time once Telfair signed with the Cards. As it turned out, Telfair turned pro and Rondo went with his second option UK. The kid can't shoot. The last thing the Hawks need is another guy with an ugly jumpshot. You have to have shooters in this league and Rondo just isn't ready. His release takes too long to get the shots off. This is much the same as Childress. He can't shoot unless he's really open. Neither shoots with any real accuracy with a guy on them/in their face. If the Hawks take a PG, I prefer Williams as I've already stated. But in the overall scheme of things, there are much better choices than Rondo even for late in the first or early second rounds. He's too much of a project for the NBA. Projection for Rondo, a journeyman PG in the mold of Brevin Knight. A decent player, but not a guy you can count on to lead you to the playoffs. I'd rather have someone else.

I hear what you're saying and it's a shame. After Jason Terry the Free Agent PG's take a severe drop off the cliff. There's certainly not an upgrade from Lue available in free agency (again, other than Terry). Who will trade us a PG? Marcus is as ready as Paul. Knight may not be the best judge in talent when it comes to PGs anyway. Watch him be a dumbass and select Morrison so we have another SF/SG to stockpile.

Draft the Atlanta Hawks select Marcus Williams from the University of Connecticut." Hey, the kid averaged close to 9 assists per game in the Big East and shot 40% from 3. He takes good care of the ball and the Hawks need a PG. Enough of this drafting for talent alone. We have a need and the talent is available for that need. This will justify taking Marvin last year ahead of Paul. I say do it. This is my first post in a looooong time. I haven't posted on here since you guys got the new site running a couple years ago. I'm the artist formerly known as AtlSportsGuy for those that remember me on the old AJC sports message board. So don't rip me too hard guys.