TroyMcClure

One more thing. Anyone ever call James Worthy third fiddle? Look at almost any really good or great team, and they have players who sacrifice as individuals for a common team goal. If the Magic win the title, do you think people will call Lewis a third fiddle? No, they would call him a matchup nightmare and a very integral cog, don't you think?

Oh, and Joe's salary is going to decrease or something, right? Dude probably thinks he deserves a raise or something. He led us out of the first round for the first time in blah, blah, blah.

Joe Johnson

Salary: 1 year remaining 14.9mill

21.4ppg-4.4reb-5.8assist .360 3P%

Hedo Turkoglu

Salary: 1 year remaining player option 7.3mill

16.8ppg-5.3reb-4.9assist .356 3P%

Rashard Lewis

Salary: 4 Years remaining 18.8mill-20.5mill-22.5mill-23.7mill

17.7ppg-5.7reb-2.6assist .397 3P%

Hitting a few clutch shots in the playoffs does not make you worth that type of money only to play third fiddle to Dwight and Hedo. As far as I can remember Robert Horry never made that type of money. Put down the pipe if you think a 18 and 6 player is worth 20 million especially when it precludes his small market team from resigning Hedo next season who makes the team run and oh yea he's making more than that Dwight fellla.

I explained, in part, why he is a more dynamic player than Joe. Put down the pipe, if you think the Magic would have become this dangerous without him. And how exactly are his numbers that different from Joe's? Keep in mind, Rashard actually passes with time left on the clock.

They gave up a 2nd rounder for Lewis. So what if he costs a few million more on the cap. He didn't cost a first round pick of a player and two more 1sts after that. Besides, this is their run. They are going for it. All that aside, when it comes to playoff basketball, a Lewis is faaaar more valuable in matchups than I've never jumped over anybody, I don't move without the ball, I don't pass with more than 5 seconds left on the clock, I play defense 36 minutes a year, Joe Johnson is. Their chemistry would totally suck with Joe Johnson on the Magic. Like I said, I don't know if Joe even remembers how to play team basketball anymore. Might not be his fault, but it is what it is, imo.

Yes, it is. I know my Seattle history; I used to live near there.

Key Arena was the smallest arena in the NBA. There was a grassroots movement at the time ("SOS" = "Save our Sonics") that was dedicated to keeping the team in Seattle. The truth is that Clay Bennett never had any intention of keeping the team in Seattle.

How silly. JJ signed a deal paying him ~$14M/year. Lewis signed a deal paying him ~$19M/year.

Of course, there's not much point in arguing with someone who thinks that Lewis would make a better first option than Joe. Put JJ on the Magic and that team is even better.

That may be true about Bennett, but Sund did not help. Perhaps he couldn't, who knows? I do know that he kept taking checks while running the franchise into the ground. Different city or not, it's the "team" he put together. They suck.

I'm no contract expert, but didn't they both sign max deals. Those are the same, correct?

Your last statement is just, dumb, MRH. Of course there is reason do discuss. Joe Johnson hasn't accomplished much in the way of team achievements in his career. It's about half over, btw. Rashard is a better teammate on the floor. He doesn't need to dribble for 15 seconds. He realizes there are other players. Rashard is a better clutch shooter, imo. He's taller, which helps tremendously when defenses are in rotation and charging a 3 shot. He actually has a post up game. Again, see height. He's very god down there. Inside out basketball benefits everyone. No one seems to know that around here. It's like Deke never played here or something. And Joe brings it defensively, like 4 times a year. Joe is in no way the answer for us. I personally don't feel he is even a piece. At least not for us. He's been a sacred cow for far too long. I don't know if knows how to play real basketball anymore. He's been dribbling for so long now... his game is just not growing. He's regressed as a player. He's not the man. Never was. Rashard Lewis on the other hand... he was a first option with Ray Allen on the floor. Could you say the same for Joe? I can't.

Agreed. I credit Howard for not getting T'd up on that play. Terrible (terribly biased) call.

Thank God for Barkley keeping it real, though. He has been on these officials. Reggie Miller is calling for serious rules committee changes. It just looks really ugly.

They got a 2nd rounder out of it.

What was he supposed to do? Sign Lewis to that ridiculous deal?

The Sonics left because the city was unwilling to pay for a new stadium, IIRC. It had little to do with basketball.

That's not entirely true, and you know it. THe city of Seattle loved the Sonics for over 2 decades. Sure, they needed an arena, but guys like Sund sucked the life out of the city. With a guy like him at the top, the city realized the ownership had totally given up and they decided to let the owners walk. If they had won on the court, which is what a GM should do, they would have gotten a new stadium. He was there the last 7 years. Plenty of time to turn it around. But Rick Sund doesn't care about that. There's always another job in another city. I hate these NBA "lifer" chumps like Woodson, BK, and Sund.

And really, I don't see how anyone could call the Lewis deal ridiculous, considering Joe Johnson's contract. I would take Lewis 8 days a week over Joe. Turk, too. But that's a different story.

Who has he been responsible for picking? Who are his notable hits and misses?

We need a Thomas Dimitroff clone here so bad.....

Hell, I'd take an RC Buford clone but I am pulling for Sund to select the right PG for us at 19.

He also traded Rashard Lewis, a move that ultimately put the nail in the coffin for the Sonics. Anyone know who they got for him, I don't even remember? I'll bet someone in Seattle remembers, though.

This question of pg or coach is an absolute no brainer. It's the coach. Everything starts from the top down. What good is the best pg with a bad coach? Not as good as a great coach with a mediocre pg. For instance, Avery Johnson was no world beater, but with a great coach, he was a steady rock to build your gameplan around. Remember, without a real coach, you have no gameplan. Without that, you're basically playing streetball(just like our Hawks) and no pg, no matter how talented, can will his team beyond an inept coach.

You guys make it sound like these bad coaches have nobody?

d*ck Motta had Jason Kidd, Jim Jackson, and Jamal Mashburn... 26 win team.

Since when is someone in the top 10 victories, a bad coach? Motta was a coach of the year and won an NBA title among other things.

In order for the Hawks to be legit contenders they will have to be an elite defensive team. Boston was last year and the Cavs are now.

Hinrich is known as a tough defender. He is one of the few guys who can give Wade problems man to man. He also had a higher EFG% on his jumpers than Bibby. He has plenty of experience and would probably benefit greatly by playing next to JJ. Most likely he is the best pg we can get.

I don't think we're smart enough to get him. If we were, we would have drafted guys like him. He doesn't have enough "game" as the idiots say.

Yes, Bosh probably has a slightly better jumper and Amare has slightly better low post skills but neither man likes to play in the low post and neither one likes playing center. I think we need to trade for a young center like Kaman who actually is a true center, rebounds, blocks and can score in the low post.

Amen for that! Except I think Amare is very good at that elbow jumper. Especially in transition. Nice to see you back, soth.

Do the Suns want Joe back?

Let's hope so.

I think we need to see Joe with complimentary scorers and better coaching before we can make that declaration.

You're talking about Joe. A guy who takes on the other team 1 on 5 with No screen. NO FREAKIN SCREEN. He tries to dribble in traffic and beat two men for scores??? How freakin ludicrous is that??

Unlike Kobe, he doesn't have a Gasol or a Mo Williams or a Oneal... I wouldn't put them on their level but at the same time, if you gave Kobe, Wade, or Lebron our team and our coaching plans.. I would like to see what they come up with. Remember... No screen.

You're acting like Joe doesn't want to do that. I guarantee, if he put his finger down, pointing for a pick... it would come. We don't have an offense. We let Joe dribble until he decides to do something.

Ok. Thanks.

Dude still has a strong grasp of the game, that's for sure. By far, the most knowledgeable color man I've heard during this year's playoffs.

dude, how old are you? Most knowledgeable this year? It's not like he is fresh on the scene. He's been the most knowledgeable color guy for about 20 years! Fratello would be perfect.

WTF are you talking about? You sure do come up with some nonsense. Belkin knew full well what the state of the Hawks was when he bought in. He knew they were blowing up the roster and starting over. If he had a problem with it then he shouldn't have bought the team in the first place.

You really make no sense.

It also makes no sense to assume that "blowing up" the roster automatically equals 13 wins. That team could have won more games. But it's much better to play the likes of a Royal Ivey over a Jon Barry, right? I think possibly, Belkin really had no idea just what kind of losers Billy Knight and his buddy Mike Woodson were. Just for the sake of argument, but I think Belkin bought in to the idea of actually rebuilding, not the cheap facade the ASG have put up. And to do that, you can't give away the world for the likes of Joe Johnson.

Before the series, I heard Barry on the radio saying if the Hawks didn't win this series, this has been a "dismal" season. I was like WTF? They won ten more games than last year and finished 4th in the conference. If they lost to Miami, it would be very disappointing, sure, but "dismal"? It's not like we were the 1 seed against an 8, or a team like Orlando that flirted with being in the upper echelon. It was a 4-5 matchup. So why was Barry so strident about this?

That performance yesterday and now reading about his brief time here under Woody kind of clears things up. He was dripping with contempt yesterday over this team for no apparent reason and it was frankly unprofessional. This guy has a beef with the organization, fine. But don't carry it into your analysis. (The fact that Atlanta was missing two starters on the road and every call went Dwyane Wade's way in game 6 might have had something to do with why it took Atlanta 7 games to beat Miami, Jon.) Dude made zero insightful comments, gave a team that I'm pretty sure he picked to lose this series no respect, and basically crapped all over the city he lives in.

And Woody is right. What has Jon Barry done to deserve to be called an expert on anything? The guy was a scrub living off the name of his father. Seriously, why does he have a job talking about basketball on ABC and ESPN?

Woody is not right. Ever think about the possibility that his beef is legitimate? It's obvious to me that it is. It's also obvious that he knew more about basketball as a child than Woody does now. The fact that you called Barry a scrub shows me you have no respect or understanding of the game of basketball. There is a reason his teams always went to the playoffs. All he did was make all of his teammates better. Woody doesn't understand that, that's why he's an idiot.

Also, the fact that you don't think Barry has any insight into what kind of disaster Mike Woodson is as a coach, is alarmingly ignorant. The verdict has been in on Woodson for some time.

This isn't news to me. His situation with Barry years ago, was one of the first indicators to me that he was clueless about winning.

By the way, regardless of average. Barry was 10x the player Woodson was. Losers don't make good coaches. How could they? All they know is how to lose. Mike Woodson was a garbage scorer on some of the worst teams in history. But it's just a coincidence that he sucks, huh?

I'm going to answer myself and say, no.

Bobby needs to step down... immediately. His lack of a system is nearly as bad as Woody's. I mean, does he even know what a stolen base is? A hit and run? And what happened to our power hitters? Do we even have one on the roster? And why is Schaffer (or any other young player) hitting 8th? It seems logic would tell him that they would get better pitches to hit at the top of the lineup instead of in front of the pitcher. And don't get me started on his bullpen usage... :computer8:

First off, that's the dumbest thing I've ever read. It's right up there. Secondly, no one steals bases anymore. Also, we have many guys capable of hitting the long ball. Sadly, Casey Kotchman isn't one of them. By the way Bobby hasn't been the GM in about 20 years. Logic also tells you that if a guy is struggling at the top of the order, and thusly killing scoring chances, you should drop him. As evidence, look at the last few games. Lastly, how do you call yourself a Braves fan? Or do you? I mean, there are some things an educated Braves fan could gripe about eloquently regarding Cox, but these aren't those things.

This is pure torture.

Only if you let it be. There are a couple of players on this team that i really like. That's about it. The organization is garbage. I'm not crowing about this, but I said 4 years ago, and from the minute I got on this site, that this would happen in just this way. Anyone who's ever played for a coach... or really listened to Hubie Brown, would know that this is what happens with a "coach" like Mike Woodson.

Don't let the losses bother you... they don't bother him.

Woodson is right that JJ needs to give up the ball when doubled. He is wrong to say JJ shouldn't expect to get it back if we don't exploit the double quickly, though. We should have pick and rolls, screens, and other plays that we can run to free him up to get the ball back when the defense resets. Of course, we don't.

Joe could also, like, move his body after he passes. I've never seen someone so young, and so injury free, move so little without the ball. He doesn't jump, he doesn't dive, he doesn't cut. Does he even know what a "give and go" is?

The braves have scored 102 runs thru 25 games. they scored 11 runs twice and 10 runs once. Throw out those 3 games and the braves have scored on avg of just over 3 runs a game. Obviously thats pathetic. What is the problem? injuries? maybe. I am starting to believe that it is more of a coaching problem at this point. I love TP just as much as the next guy but at some point a change must be made. Jeff Franceour is a perfect example. Jeff went to work with the Texas Rangers hitting coach in the offseason and look how he has improved. When I heard that he had done this it got me thinking that we should make a change. If our players have to go to another teams hitting instructor to improve then we have a problem. Hopefully TP can get things turned around but if not then this season should be his last.

I've had problems with TP, but I've come to think that he's just doing what Bobby wants. We've been like this for 18 years, man! Besides, he will be the next Braves manager, imo. He's not going anywhere.

We need consistent at bats and production from the top of the order. That's the biggest problem right now, imo. The middle relief is not exactly a bright spot, though.

Funny stuff.

Really, it's quite pathetic. The reason he's doing what he's doing is because his opinion on the game of basketball is actually worth being paid for. Mike Woodson is just clueless and increasingly classless.

"What he say don't amount to nothing?" You don't have to be a Mensa member to be a coach, but I mean, come on. I'm sorry but a professional coach should speak better than that in a public forum.

He's actually right, though. It don't amount to nothing.

GM Sund knew the Hawks would be a competitive team and should have been more aggressive in finding a veteran big or work some All-Star Break trade.

GM Sund has shown he isn't forward thinking.

Now Marvin is hurt, and not likely to have a big impact on series.

Now Horford has to manage a sprain ankle.

Law has received very few minutes in game situations.

Speedy has been hurt for two years, and could play, but can't or won't.

GM Sund has coasted all year, and the moves by Cleveland to get JOE SMITH or trade for a Mo Williams or acquire Ben Wallace will likely be instrumental in this series.

The Hawks were a Top 4 conference team, not 13-69, Sund needed to be more forward thinking and added a veteran who can help--especially in the frontcourt...

Competing for a title is not on the list of things that are important to Rick Sund. Therefore, I don't think he really cares. He's happy with where we are. No Atlanta Hawks team has been past the second round. No pressure in his mind. Problem is, he should be applying the pressure himself.

I said Zaza was in another thread. I can't go back on it.

Zaza was important, no doubt. Josh Smith though, was undoubtedly the MVP, imo.

just got back from Phillips and the fans were great once again and I think played a big part in the home wins. They were loud and really enjoyed themselves today at Miami's expense!

CONGRATS TO THE HAWKS AND ALL THE HAWKS FANS!!!

BRING ON LEBRON!!!

It was nice to see and hear. thanks from all of us who could not afford to go to those that could and did such a tremendous job! The defense chants and the Hey, hey, goodbye were awesome!

Where is the warning for this guy for being wrong and lets face it dumb.

I assure you, this is off the top of my head. I don't hate Joe, I just think Josh Smith is far more valuable.

Here's at least 10 guys that took me less than 10 seconds to think of. Each are of more value to the NBA and their individual franchises, than Joe Johnson. Howard, Ming, Kobe, Rose, Boozer, Williams, Lebron, Wade, Mello, Chauncey, Dirk, Pierce, Allen. Now, do we really want to do this? Let's just be happy. They played great today.