TroyMcClure

Oh, I almost forgot. You talked playoffs. His team went to the playoffs 5 times. That is correct. but you failed to mention that he only played 16 minutes for the Knicks, the only team that had a decent record that he played for. They traded him the following year, by the way. 2 of the other 4 years his teams had losing records like last year's Hawks. Another had a .500% record. And lastly, the last playoff team he was on, he barely played there as well. Go figure, they had a winning record. Strange right? Why is it shocking that he thinks he did something last year? He thinks that is success.

Woody was a pretty good player.

The 50-year-old Woodson has over two decades of NBA experience as a player and coach, and served three seasons as an assistant under Brown in both Philadelphia (2001-03) and Detroit. He also worked as an assistant coach with the Cleveland Cavaliers (1999-01) and the Milwaukee Bucks (1996-99).

One of the chief architects behind the Pistons’ suffocating defensive effort during the 2003-04 season, Detroit held the opposition to 84.3 points per game that year, which equaled the league’s best total defensively (along with San Antonio). In addition, the Pistons’ point differential of +5.84 was the second-best in the NBA and they limited opponents to 41.4 field goal shooting, the league’s third-best performance. During their 23 postseason games, Detroit intensified their efforts defensively, holding teams to 80.7 ppg and 39.2 FG shooting, and in the five-game Finals series against Los Angeles, the Pistons kept the Lakers more than 16 points under their regular season average and hounded them into shooting 41 percent from the floor.

The 11-year veteran and 6-5 guard played for seven teams in the NBA after he was selected in the first round of the 1980 Draft by the New York Knicks with the 12th overall pick. In 786 career games, Woodson averaged 14.0 points (10.981 career points), 2.3 rebounds and 2.3 assists in 25.5 minutes, enjoying his best season in 1982-83 when he played for the then-Kansas City Kings and posted 18.2 points per game.

In addition to the Knicks and Kings (both in Kansas City and Sacramento), Woodson also played with New Jersey, the Los Angeles Clippers, Houston and Cleveland, before retiring from the game in 1991. His teams advanced to the playoffs five times, where he averaged 12.2 ppg, 2.6 apg and 2.3 rpg.

No, he wasn't a good player. He averaged 14 a game on many of the worst teams in history. I ask you, has any other person lead in scoring and coached for two of the five worst teams ever? Woody has.

I have shown his record time and again. I know full well everything you've typed... and then some. Like the fact that he was the "leader" of two teams that were so great they moved cities. Check his career playing winning %. It's about the same as his coaching. There is a direct corollary there. You don't become a winning coach by being around losing your whole career.

You are joking about being "the architect" aren't you? That's just patently stupid. I think Chauncey and Rasheed were the "architects". Or maybe Larry Brown. Not woody. This isn't football. Woody isn't a hot shot coordinator. He rode some coattails and now has cashed many checks.

Bottomline is that Woody is the coach. It doesn't matter what the f*** Josh thinks. How dare he tell the coach he is running that wrong play. Same with Bibby and his 1 on 5 three pointers. No f***ing respect at all.

Josh Smith is a helluva lot better player than Woodson ever was. Woodson is also the worst coach, at any level above high school, that my eyes have ever seen. So, how dare you defend this incompetent lifelong loser. If it weren't for Mike Bibby, in large part, we would be exactly where we were last year. Which is somewhere around the area of really sucking. Now, we just barely suck and Woody may keep that paycheck. He should keep his

mouth shut. Woodson never understands the moment at hand. Or the bigger picture.

What kind of man shows respect for an incompetent loser? How long would you stay at your job if you felt your boss was worthless and holding back you and the company? See, you can leave. Josh tried to. It wasn't really his choice. You can only stare at repeated incompetence so long before you blow up. Which, Josh invariably does because of this. He's a relatively good, humble guy. He wants to be coached. you can hear it in his own words. He just knows Woody is no coach.

Really, it's absurd to me how anyone can defend Mike Woodson.

Who do you believe are the top 2's or 3's that compliment Joe Johnson's style of play in the NBA? It can be anyone. Make a Top 3 or 5 or 10 (as many as you want) list of the players and post! :)

We need to think about who Joe would compliment. Not the other way around.

Shareef would have been a fine #2 guy on a team but did not have the skills or attitude needed to be a #1, IMO. On a solid team, you could have Shareef as a #2 and JT as a #3 or #4 guy but having them #1/2 (I can't credit Big Dog with being higher than a tepid #3) was not a good thing.

Shareef was a good scorer; a decent rebounder; and a modest defender. He never had an impact on the boards or defensive ends of the court and wasn't a dynamic scorer. Babcock and much of the fan base expected too much from him. I didn't doubt his effort or think he was selfish, though, and there is nothing that makes me wish him anything but the best going forward.

AHF, this doesn't happen often but i think I disagree with everything you've just said.

I disagree with the opinion that he could have ever been even a #2 on a winning team. His play destroyed offensive ball movement and the ball in his hands invariably led to a to or a missed brick. The only thing I liked about the guy was he had a decent face up j from around 17 ft. Guys like him can never be on a "solid" team. It's a virtual impossibility. How can you be solid with such a huge whole? There is a reason he was never on a good team. Basketball is by far the easiest sport for one player to raise the tides of all boats, so to speak. He ner did. Because he was a loser.

A good scorer makes baskets that mean something. Lots of people can score when they are given the majority of the chances.

I also disagree that you can be a modest defender and decent rebounder without making "an impact" as you say. If he were decent, it would have impacted us.

I do doubt his effort, both mentally and physically. Never saw the guy dive for anything.

I also think he was so ignorant of winning basketball, that he was selfish, he just didn't know it. His style of play helped nothing but his own averages. Which, is really bad in a team sport. As a Hawks fan, I don't really care what kind of person he is, he was a terrible basketball player. That trumps being a good guy, imo.

hotlanta1981,

I've never seen you write anything positive about anybody. Do you enjoy anything about the Hawks?

Just because you don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is wrong. He's absolutely right. Anyone who thinks Reef was any good probably never played on a team. Reef was terrible in every sense of the word. He helped usher in the age of the crappy Hawks we know today. We were winners before he got here. hH was a loser of the highest order. Mainly because he didn't even realize just how terrible he was. It was all about his 20-10. Team goals, like winning a game, were incidental to his pursuit of 20-10. He was Charmin Ultra-soft. Dude sucked hard. Not a defensive bone in his body. He was truly one of the worst Hawks.

Dammit. I have the Jazz announcers. Love Bob and Nique.

Rod Hundley is awesome! I wish we could switch.

Sorry, I forgot they pulled a Braves and moved him to radio a few years ago. That guy was everything you want a play by play guy to be. He was a heck of a player, too. First pick in the NBA draft back in the day.

I think it is about that time.........

That's cute, but it really doesn't matter. This team is coached so poorly that it never had a chance to go for a title, even a conference one. So, there's no real reason to panic. The object for this team, this year, I thought was to play consistent basketball and continually get better as a team unit and maybe advance to the second round. They certainly haven't been consistent, but they may advance in the playoffs. So this begs the question of what exactly is success for these Hawks? Is it simply to win more games than the year before? Is it enough to advance to the second round? The last year and a half could have been so much better. It would be so nice to see how these guys could play for a coach with a real desire to win, not just be in the NBA. Even with this crappy ownership and the limitations they would invariably put on him, anything would be better than Woody. I dream of the day I can panic over the Hawks again.

Josh Smith and Monta Ellis' salaries are damn near identical. We let Bibby walk, resign MArvin, and find us a center..

Monta

JJ

MArv

Horf

???/ZAZA

Just a thought. We need to get his *ss out of her. He is a cancer. Monta wants out and is from Mississippi. I am not sure if he is healed all the but hell he would an upgrade over Bibby even with one good ankle.

Dude, Monta Ellis thinks he invented the basketball. He's also a little kid liar, as evidenced by his situation before the season. Sorry, but I'd prefer a more mature player.

If he weren't such a punk, you could respect this a little. He's no Bob Gibson though, you know? This wasn't about his overwhelming desire to win. This was about his overwhelming desire to do whatever the F he wanted to do.

If anything, Villanueva is the reason they are in playoff contention. Period.

Who cares? I wouldn't pick up Charlie V at the gym. He's an untalented, selfish, tall guy.

I'm sure Bucks fans are dancing in the streets about "playoff contention". He's a worthless player if building a team concept and winning are your goals.

Well Companyman,

I think that you should consider the misleading that going on . He wants you to think that Marvin was in a hole while these other guys were averaging 40 mpg. That's far from the truth.

Are you that blinded against Marvin? The ral story is how Sekou is just a terrible writer... and researcher. This is just another example of why you should pay him no attention. The words he says are worthless because he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, as you've just described.

i was just reading an interesting thread on expectations of Bucks for Charlie V. It's quite funny because they are looking at the improvement Charlie has shown over the last 2 months, similar to the way we're looking at Marvin for the last 4 games.

For the last 11 games, Charlie is:

11 games. Team was 5-6

32mpg/21.4ppg/6.5rpg/3.0apg/47%FG/41% 3-ptFG/79% FT.

It's impressive when you consider no Redd, No Bogut.

But here's the conversation.

They want to reup Charlie at 6-7 Million in the offseason.

My question is How much are Hawks fans willing to pay to reup Marvin?

The Bucks suck. In large part, due to Villanueva. Nothing he does is impressive to me. Marvin is twice the player he is. I don't have the time to explain why. You should know.

This is our best season in a decade and the fans know that. But it seems that too many here are still stuck in the past when it comes to this team. They will never be "happy" with this team's performance.

The reason we're not happy is because you're right, we are stuck in the past. The Hawks had a playoff team for 18 out of 20 years, I think. They could never get past the second round, so they blew it up. Then the ASG got their hands on the team and here we are. We had a good team before. Probably a lot better than this one will ever be. So, I won't be truly happy until Woody is gone and we can see what these guys can really do. Ignorance is bliss comes to mind regarding the Hawks. The league is so down. I don't think I've ever seen this many mediocre to bad teams. It's no real accomplishment that we have a 4 seed. In fact, it's really sad that Woody has been very content with not reaching for the 3. But what else is new? The only real change for us is Flip Murray and an improved Marvin, and Bibby for the whole year. That's about it.

Lastly, negative fans are way better for a team than positive ones. Unfortunately, not enough people cared enough about the Hawks to shout from the rooftops regarding the franchise demise. It just sort of happened without anyone noticing. Negative fanbases don't allow that to happen. I'm actually proud of the growing negative fans we have. Strive for excellence.

And we've got Graymule. He's equal to, like, 20 of us!

That was just excellent matador D by Joe at the end. Great job of free throw shooting as well. But oh boy, he almost hit that long j to win so we should all be happy, right?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Brooking continue to play with some sort of broken/fractured/cracked, whatever, bone in his back a few years ago? So I guess all the pro-bowl appearances were just a bunch of idiots who didn't see how obviously untalented he was giving him that accolade. Gimme a break people. The guys has moved on and it is a good thing. But the harsh criticism seems to be coming from those judging him on his being overpaid and his play the last couple of years. Looking at his careear as a whole, he was a pretty darn good linebacker for this organization.

So I guess all the pro-bowl appearances were just a bunch of idiots who didn't see how obviously untalented he was giving him that accolade. Gimme a break people.

Yeah. Have you ever thought about how little time most of the NFL players would spend picking the Pro Bowl. My guess is very little, if any. For those that don't have their homeboy or personal assistant do it, those guys probably spend as much time as you do when picking the ballot while at a game. Maybe 4 minutes?

Then factor in fans who have never played football, look at tackle numbers, and... Voila! Pro Bowl player. We could never stop people from scoring when it mattered. He was a linebacker. He got the overwhelming majority of his tackles 6 yards downfield. It doesn't say that in the stats, though.

That's 2/3 of the vote. Now coaches. Do you think they have the time to really care about it?

The Pro Bowl is almost like the Gold Glove now. There's not a whole lot of thought put into it anymore. Jessie Tuggle didn't make 5 straight Pro Bowls. He was twice 10x the LB Brooking was. Think about it.

And no, I don't remember Brooking playing through anything broken. But so what if he did. He sucked and that would not be an excuse to me.

Also, I explained why he sucked even if he were paying the Falcons. You've obviously never tried to fill a gap and make a tackle.

Uhh... keep it? Keith Brooking was one of the best Falcons players to ever put a jersey on. For you to be thinking about what you should do about Brooking's jersey is just stupid. And you call yourself a fan...

Brooking does not deserve to be getting paid that much anymore. I would welcome him back only if he agrees to be paid the veteran minimum or as an assistant coach.

Good luck to Brooking and his family for the future. What I would tell Brooking if I saw him today is thanks for the memories... because he gave us some solid years of hard-nose football.

I'll miss seeing 56 on the field, but Dimitroff has the right set of mind. We need to move on.

Keith Brooking may be one of the most overrated players in NFL history. I've been a Falcon fan my whole life. I played football for over a decade. I played defense mainly. I have absolutely no respect for him as a player. I've never seen anyone at the NFL level, as a linebacker, hit so little. A linebacker often has to sacrifice his body to blow a play up. Never seen Brooking do that. Ever. I honestly can't think of a single great defensive play that he's ever made. Beyond that though, he rarely made even the pedestrian play. It was so embarrassing watching him jump on a pile after the play, time and again. He wanted people to think he was "hustling". I think he even thought it himself. A real LB would be a man and hit people. Just a total wuss. Which, is like, the worst thing in the world if you're a linebacker. Truthfully, his ability to stay here this long shows the franchise's lack of commitment to defense up to this point. I've wanted him gone since the minute he got here. This is a move that makes me believe in Dimitroff even more.

Don't question someone for getting rid of a Brooking jersey. Question why they bought it in the first place.

And lastly, what memories? Again, can't think of a memorable play... except bad ones. I'm not joking here. I've seen virtually every game he's ever played as a Falcon. I thought he was a total liability during his entire time here. Thankfully, Dimitroff sees he is a liability as well.

We would sign Mike Peterson formerly from Jacksonville before we sign Brooks. If we were to sign any veteran that old, we would make sure that that player already knows the coach's offense/defense inside-out. We won't be babysitting veterans making sure they adjust to our system again. I'm sure Dimitroff will not want that.

Besides, what makes you think he'd be good enough on this young, upcoming team when he's obviously not good enough for Tampa? There are much better and easier to understand options out there instead of Brooks, who someone said above is probably around 75 years old.

Very true. Brooks was awesome, but he played the weak side in a cover two. We don't run the cover two. He will find a team that can play him there... or retire. Tuggle could still play when we let him go. He chose to retire a Falcon. Brooks might choose that path. What does he have to prove?

Why is that Joe can only dunk like twice a season?

Take another look at how he broke his face in Phoenix. He was going up hard to dunk. Call it what you will, but he clearly doesn't want that to ever happen again.

Was Joe doubled last night? Sure looked like it to me. :stirthepot:

Yeah, that's what a double looks like. He didn't respond though, did he? He was doubled because Smoove and Bibby were out. What is your point? Mine was that his being doubled was not a nightly thing, and it isn't.

We ran more Iso's with Smitty than we did dumping in down to Deke in the post. I remember us AT TIMES dumping it into Mutombo but I promise you that was not a norm and I can assure you he was never doubled when we did it. Deke was a very slow and deliberate offensive post player. It simply didn't work. Yes I understand basketball and I'd much rather have Lenny than Woody but since we're talking basketball let's remember that Lenny's boring offense wasn't that good. Lenny only won a little over half his games in his career and most of those wins was because of his defense. He was a defensive coach and it is what it is.

Totally 100% wrong. Our whole offense during that time revolved around a 2 man pick and roll or pick and pop with Mookie and Smitty. The other option was always to dump it into Dikembe to start the offense. The defense did have to double down, virtually every time when Deke was in his prime. So what if it looked ugly. It happened. Your memory does you a disservice on this issue. He got so low on the block and he was huge. You had to double down. He almost invited it with his clumsy attack. He had a good drop step and a pretty good hook. More than anything though, he forced a late double and often times got the defense on their heels and we were able to swing it and get the advantage.

Smitty could never "iso". Not even in his best days. Usually that led to him backing someone down and passing. Or he pulled up quickly. You are right that we did do that at times. But the bulk of the offense was the way I described it. I just can't believe you don't remember how we used Deke. It was almost to a point of being forced, we did it so much.

During the break someone posted an article that said the Hawks had the 3rd toughest schedule the rest of the season. That means that they obviously had one of the easiest schedules before the break.

The Hawks have played only 25 games against teams .500 or better. Other than Houston

no team in the NBA has played so few games against .500+ teams.

http://www.nba.com/standings/team_record_c...ew_Mrg_Div.html

Funny how the truth is often at odds with perception.

Ford's theory is that Portland was unwilling to disrupt good chemistry and that teams are deathly afraid of taking on serious salaries in this economy.

It has to be a chemistry thing. The economics angle is silly. Paul Allen is one of the richest men in the world. I don't think Vince is going to put him in the poorhouse.

I remember our offense being very boring and stagnant as well. In fact, offensively, he and Woody remind me of each other. Lot's of Iso's (iso-Smitty anyone?) and wouldn't trust their bench (or youngsters). The difference in the two is that Lenny was 10X the defensive mind that Woody is.

Our offense may have been boring, but at least it was competent. To be fair, there was no zone defense back then, and pick and roll could run all day. Dsinner, we didn't run iso Smitty plays. That's just not factually correct. We mostly ran a two man game with Smitty and Mookie. When we weren't doing that, we were dumping it in to Deke to force a double. That's basketball. Sorry if it's boring, but it is what it is.

So now you don't double team out of a zone? Wow. Okay. haha. I give up. You and your "4-1 zone" haha. Have fun with that.

You really should give up. You are on a basketball message board and instead of understanding your limited knowledge of the game and learning something, you just keep typing.

TheCampster is right. He went so far as to spell it out for you. But you don't know the game, so his words mean nothing to you. Your loss.

Oh, I've wondered how many people here play or have played, as well. I'm quite sure you haven't. At least for a coach. You sound like this guy from Jersey that I work with. We were talking about when we played football. He said he played defensive back. So did I. So I asked him what was their call on interceptions. Ours was "Oskie". He was like "what"? I had to explain to him the importance of letting your team know that they were now on offense and to block someone on the return. It's a basic thing that flew over his head. Now, either he is lying, or they don't really play football in New Jersey.

If you can't talk about the game with a deep understanding, you shouldn't get into x and o discussions. You make yourself look bad and waste everyone's time.