bfwolf

You are 110% correct. I do not like the coach or GM of this team but to trade marvin, smooth, childress, JJ, or SW at this point would be flat out ignorant. Wouldn't that depend on what we got in return?

Quote: You obviously don't watch a lot of games then. I have the NBA League Pass and have watched a majority of the Hawks games this year. My opinion is my opinion. You don't have to agree.

Quote: I like Jack, but if I traded with Portland, I would want Aldridge. Of course we'd all love to have Aldridge. But Portland would have on interest in swapping Aldridge for Marvin. Aldridge is a much better player than Marvin is right now and has an even higher ceiling. I also think that too many people get caught up with the idea that MW was a #2 pick. That's a sunk cost. We'd love to go back and change history and draft Chris Paul, but we can't. So now we are where we are and have to evaluate things objectively. Would trading MW for a guy picked 20 picks lower than him be admitting we made a mistake. Yes. But who in their right mind is suggesting we DIDN'T make a mistake at this point? MW went too high, and Jack went too low. I'd be happy to make the swap right now.

I really couldn't care less who is starting, but as for which 5 guys should be getting the most minutes, I'd say, in order: JJ Childress Smith Shelden Zaza With Solomon being our best 6th man. Lo Wright is TERRIBLE and shouldn't be on an NBA roster. 1 good game is not going to convince me that he has any place getting minutes let alone starting. Ivey's played respectably for a guy we don't expect much from, but he shouldn't be playing big minutes. I feel very comfortable with the 5 guys I mentioned above on the court, PG be damned.

Quote: Quote: I gotta tell you, if you throw out the fact that MW was picked 20 picks ahead of Jack (how is this relevant anymore?) and just look at the way each has performed and their potential, I'm pretty sure I'd do this trade. Because that pick was such a big risk, possibly a franchise killing one, we might as well see if it works out first instead of trading him for an average pg in Jack.. If we wait to see how Marvin works out, and he DOESN'T work out, we'll be able to get jack (not jarrett) and squat for him. If he's still playing like this in 2 years, the idea of trading him for Jarrett Jack will be just a pleasant dream. Of course, if he really does turn into a 20 ppg kind of guy, then we'd be glad that we held onto him. So it's all a question of how much you believe in Marvin. I don't think he's ever going to amount to much. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again in the future, but that's my opinion. I think Jack is a better player today, and I think he'll be a better player 3 years from now.

I gotta tell you, if you throw out the fact that MW was picked 20 picks ahead of Jack (how is this relevant anymore?) and just look at the way each has performed and their potential, I'm pretty sure I'd do this trade.

Quote: Salim is looking a little better lately. He obviously has talent, but he also has some pretty big limitations. On the plus side, he's quick, explosive, athletic, and has a lightening release on his jump shot. He can also finish around the rim fairly well for a player his size. On the minus side, he's small, doesn't handle the ball well enough, makes too many mistakes, and is streaky (partly because he takes too many tough shots). If he could limit his turnovers, improve his defense, and take better shots, and improve his passing and ballhandling, he could be a solid player off the bench. I guess I disagree with pretty much all the things you list as strengths for Salim. For an NBA guard (especially an NBA point guard), I don't consider him quick, explosive, or athletic. I think he's average to below average in all these categories. I also believe he has a rather slow release due to a funny little double-clutch he does on his shot. As for his play around the rim, I've never seen him take a shot around the rim, so I'm not sure I can comment. He does, however, have the ability to hit the pull up floating jump shot in the 10-12 foot range which is a plus.

If we go the PG route, the kind of PG we get is heavily influenced by the kind of game we want to play. If we want to be the half-court offense team that Woodson wants us to be, then a big PG who can get to the hole and finish inside (or pass out to the perimeter for open Js) and maybe even post up a little bit would be the way to go. If we want to be a running team like many of us want the Hawks to be, then size is not as important as court vision, speed, and quick hands that can force turnovers and get the team off and running.

Quote: Quote: There is if he thinks he can make more money between the buyout and whatever another team would sign him for. After this year, he has somewhere around $18MM left on his contract for the remaining 3 years. So let's say we offer him $6MM as a buyout. If he believes he can go get a 3 year contract worth more than $12MM a year, he'd go for this If there's any team in the NBA that could use Claxton, why wouldn't that team be the Hawks? A buyout is simply not an option anytime soon. I don't actually think a buyout is a good option here. I was originally just responding to some joker who was saying "Gee, why would you buy him out if you can't get anyone better?" And I was pointing out that buyouts affect your cap room for years to come, so you can't just look at our current situation today and say "well, there's no other PG out there available in FA so there's no reason to do it." But in reality, I don't think we're going to be better off buying out Speedy's contract, and it's certainly not feasible given the current ownership situation.

Quote: Quote: Well I'm certainly not a BK supporter but I would not trade MW for Jefferson. MW will be a very good player in the future and he has very good skill sets. We don't need to trade MW or SW. Jefferson is younger than MW, less experienced, and yet he has better "skill sets" (his post game is FAR better than MW's game) that actually translates to efficient production unlike MW and those skill sets are needed by our team. At best MW is a 20 PPG scorer, Jefferson can be a 22/13 player easily and is far closer to being that than MW is his ceiling. Man, people will cling to a thread of hope more than they will definately help their team most. Just boggles my mind. W Jefferson is older than Marvin, but your point still stands that his upside looks to be at least as good as Marvin's and he is much closer to achieving it than Marvin is, not to mention he plays a position we need help with while Marvin plays a position we have in abundance. AND he makes nearly $3MM a year less. I guess people just become very attached to the players on their own team and overrate them. There's no other explanation.

Quote: Well I'm certainly not a BK supporter but I would not trade MW for Jefferson. MW will be a very good player in the future and he has very good skill sets. We don't need to trade MW or SW. Al Jefferson is a good player NOW. And makes less to boot.

Quote: Quote: I'm certainly not suggesting we offer him $15MM in a buy out! Why would we offer nearly the full value of his contract to buy him out? For one, that was a hypothetical situation, don't take it literally since I was doing you a favor in explaining buy-outs. The full value of the contract is $24 million. This year he makes $6.8 mil, making the rest of his contract worth $17.2 mil(I was mistaken about the last year of his contract, its about $5 mil not between $3-4). If you want me to pro-rate his contract's value right now the remaining value is about $21 mil (he has been payed about $3 mil so far this season). So actually an estimate of $15 mil is a pretty good guess as to what he might get. I only chose $15 mil because Speedy has 3 years left on the contract, so it is easy to say he gets paid $5 mil for each year. Quote: If we offered something considerably less, we could reduce the implication on our salary cap for years to come. And why exactly would Speed accept an offer of considerably less? At this point in time he isn't likely to get an offer anywhere close to what we gave him. I tend to agree, but I don't think we'd need to offer him $15MM after this year to get him to accept a buyout. That would suggest he only needs to find a team who will pay him $1MM a year. I think he can do better than that.

Quote: Quote: Why would we offer nearly the full value of his contract to buy him out? Because his contract is guaranteed, there's no reason for Speedy to accept a buyout. There is if he thinks he can make more money between the buyout and whatever another team would sign him for. After this year, he has somewhere around $18MM left on his contract for the remaining 3 years. So let's say we offer him $6MM as a buyout. If he believes he can go get a 3 year contract worth more than $12MM a year, he'd go for this.

Quote: Quote: Not true. It would get his salary off the books. That isn't how buy-outs work. Once you agree upon the buy-out amount (let's say...$15 million), then you distribute that amount over the life of the contract for how it affects the cap (so that would be $5 million each year for the next three years). Buying out his contract now would be counter productive. Just about the only thing we could hope for to get out of this contract before it is over is if Speedy can't play due to injury. But, that isn't likely to happen and at this point would probably only get us out of the last season of his contract (which is only like $3-4 million). This whole buy-out topic is stupid, there is no reason for us to even offer a buy-out to Speedy. As frail as Speedy may be, he is stuck with us for the life of the contract unless we trade him. I'm certainly not suggesting we offer him $15MM in a buy out! Why would we offer nearly the full value of his contract to buy him out? If we offered something considerably less, we could reduce the implication on our salary cap for years to come.

Quote: no reason to buy him out when none better are available... Not true. It would get his salary off the books. You have to think beyond this year when we have plenty of salary cap room to 2 or 3 years from now when we may not have that room and Speedy will STILL be getting paid $6MM by the Hawks.

Quote: I disagree that Marvin would not have trade value because he is overpaid. No team should be interested in getting Marvin's current output at Marvin's current price. Any team interested in him would be based on the potential that he will have a breakout season next year and become a good value. We have to be honest with ourselves and assess the realistic possibility of Marvin having such a breakout season. Frankly, I don't see it as likely, and I doubt we could find a GM who'd be willing to take a gamble on his potential by giving up a proven talent.

Quote: Marvin/Salim/2nd rounder for Aldridge/Sergio. Marvin is financially a wash with Aldridge. Salim is financially a wash with Sergio. So the question becomes all abou the talent level of the players involved. Aldridge is a PF/C which is in much greater demand than Marvin's position of SF. Aldridge has shown stronger flashes of excellence in limited minutes during his 1st year than Marvin has in his 2nd year. Aldridge's PER is 15.58 while Marvin's is 9.5. There's no WAY Portland is remotely interested in swapping Aldridge for Marvin. So let's consider the Sergio/Salim part of the trade. Sergio is a true PG with good passing skills and size. He's playing in limited minutes but has a PER of 17.15 and has a shooting percentage of 46%. Salim is a player without a position due to his difficulty in running the point and his lack of size to be a true SG. His only real skill is shooting, which he does very well when open, but terribly when covered. His field goal percentage is a paltry 37%, and his PER is a terrible 8.65. He also plays poor defense although Rodriguez is a defensive question mark, too. So there's also no way Portland would ever be interested in this part of the trade either. So then you have to consider, is a 2nd round pick thrown in enough to make up the difference in performance between Aldridge/Sergio and Marvin/Salim. The answer is not a chance in hell. 2nd round picks have very little value since very few 2nd round picks stick in the league and even fewer become long-time starters. Quite frankly, I doubt that Portland would even be interested in the deal if we threw in Indiana's 1st rounder.

Quote: to make room for starting Shelden Williams who I feel will be a backup big for his entire career. We have to find a way with out salvaging Josh or Chillz. Smith and Childress are the only players on the team with any real trade value though. They're both good players who are making a relative pittance ($1.5MM and $2.9MM respectively). Joe Johnson would be somewhat difficult to move at $13MM a year (and I doubt you'd be interested in that anyway). A smart playoff contender would actually be interested in Lue at $3.5MM per for the next 2 years, so he could be moved if we wanted to. We might get some interest for Zaza at $4MM per or Shelden at $3MM per. And I guess Salim and Solomon make so little that somebody would bite on that, but we would never get much in return. Guys like Claxton, Marvin, and Lo Wright cannot be moved for value because they're overpaid. There's a rule in life that you have to give up something to get something. If you want to make a trade where we bring in a proven talent with a low salary, we'll have to give up Childress or Smith.

Quote: This is a deal that I would love to get done. I would even throw in Salim stoudamire for Delonte west. I like Marvin Williams and think that he will be a solid NBA player but I just love our combination of Chillz and Smooth the same way I did when we past on Chris Paul to take Marvin. We have to clear this Small forward Log Jam in order to be a better team for the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It cracks me up when people keep proposing trade options where we give up Marvin for somebody good. No team is going to do this unless the good player is vastly overpaid, and they are trying to dump salary. Unfortunately, Marvin is overpaid himself at $4MM a year. Al Jefferson is a much better player than Marvin who is making FAR less than Marvin ($4.2MM vs. $1.6MM). Why would Boston even consider this trade?

Quote: Quote: that's the thing though, we really don't have anyone that can drive the ball. JJ and Chill are IT. Speedy is decent but he's always injured. Smoove and Marvin don't really have the handles to drive. We are a jumpshooting team which is why we need a coach and pg that can teach us to run the fast break.. Driving is a mental thing. You have to have the mentality to get to the hoop. With Smoove's long strides, with 3 to four dribbles he's at the hoop. It's especially easy for him to drive when someone kicks out to him when he's wide open. I've seen him drive several times finishing strong at the hoop. He just has to have confidence to try this more often. More good things than bad can happen when you drive to the hole. Well said. It's a misconception that you need great handles to take the ball to the hoop. For tall guys like Childress and Smith, the ball only hits the floor a couple of times. Furthermore, it's not like Childress, Smith, or JJ are being guarded by lightning quick 6'1 point guards. They're being guarded by guys closer to their own size who are generally not steal artists unless their named Ron Artest. And besides, THESE GUYS TOOK THE BALL TO THE HOOP ALL GAME LAST NIGHT. That's proof right there that they can do it. While Claxton has the ability to get to the hoop, he's not nearly as effective as our wing players once he gets there because he's not much of a threat to score. With JJ, Childress, and Smith taking it the rim, teams have to double or they will get scored on.

To me, the difference in tonight's game was two-fold: 1) The Hawks played with intensity and hustle. Always makes a huge difference. 2) The Hawks abandoned their ineffective pick-and-roll offense, an offense that is designed for wily veterans who are great passers and great shooters (clearly not the Hawks) and instead focused on getting the ball to their athletes and letting them take it to the hoop on every possession. Compared to most teams in the league, the Hawks are tall, quick, and can jump out of the building. Guys like JJ, Childress, and Smith are impossible to guard 1 on 1 when they take the ball to the hoop. Those guys attacked the rim with reckless abandon tonight, especially Childress. Every time he got the ball, he immediately took it to the hoop. The Wolves were forced to double, and he'd kick it out for open 17 footers. And while the Hawks have very few players who can consistently knock down 3 pointers, they have a LOT of players who can consistently knock down 17 footers. This is what the Hawks have to continue to do. Don't dribble the ball at the top of the key, or run a worthless pick and roll, or pass it around the perimeter for 3/4 of the shot clock. Get it in the hands of the athletes and immediately attack the basket. I honestly believe we could win half our games if we just attack the hoop relentlessly.

Quote: Quote: In the 1996 draft, Lorenzen Wright was picked 6 picks ahead of Kobe, 8 picks ahead of Nash, and 10 picks ahead of Jermaine O'Neal. Normally I hate when people compare draft picks to somebody picked after them and say "wow, what were they thinking," but for some reason it strikes me as hilarious that somebody thought Lo Wright was going to turn out better than those guys. There was a rumored 4 team trade where the Clippers were trading down to pick up the 13th pick (Kobe) from Charlotte, 14th pick from Phoenix (Nash) and the 15th pick from Portland(JONeil), for their 7th pick(Lo Wright going to Charlotte). Clippers had to pick up some contract baggage from Portland and Phoenix for that trade to go through. Sterling refused to do that. I'm not sure that Nash and Kobe would be particularly complimentary parts, but still, that would be one helluva nucleus.

Quote: not really. lo was a dang good big man go college. and bryant and oneal were hs kids. Well sure, there are always reasons, and usually good ones, why a certain player is taken ahead of another player in a draft. That's why I usually don't care for the comparisons. But Lo Wright is SO terrible now, it just makes me laugh to think about some NBA exec saying "No no no, we don't need that floppy-haired Canadian Nash kid. What we need is Lo Wright!!!"

In the 1996 draft, Lorenzen Wright was picked 6 picks ahead of Kobe, 8 picks ahead of Nash, and 10 picks ahead of Jermaine O'Neal. Normally I hate when people compare draft picks to somebody picked after them and say "wow, what were they thinking," but for some reason it strikes me as hilarious that somebody thought Lo Wright was going to turn out better than those guys.

First off, Walter, you're the coach not the GM. You can't trade Lue. Second of all, you can't have it all add up to 240 minutes. Because not every player plays every game, no team's minutes/game adds up to 240. In fact, the Hawks adds up to 331. So in order to come to any sort of conclusion about who you'd be playing more and who you'd be playing less, we need you to make your minutes/game add up to 331 as well.