Sasquatch

As a moderator I'm asking you to please tone down these types of responses. There was no need for you to write multiple sentences dissing someone and nothing of substance.

It's not correct that BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs as BK took over in April of 2003 and we hadn't been in the playoffs since the 98-99 season but it was mostly the same core group of players I believe so maybe that's what he meant.

BK did blow up the roster.

And we were the joke of the league for ten years and we're still not completely removed from that stigma.

As a moderator if you have a different point of view just express your point of view.

Don't tell me "I'm the moderator" and then tell me what someone meant to say when... he said what he said...

To make matters worse... you go on to pick up the rest of the argument for him

If you are going to be some type of adjudicator it is patently insane for you to say or claim to know what someone meant to say... and then speak on their behalf

As for your assertion that there was nothing of substance in my post... the fact that you knew exactly what the errors were that I was referring to and went on to correct them yourself proves that there was substance there... Not only substance, but basketball substance...

My response was completely about basketball and the fact that what he said was not true...

I find it particularly ridiculous that there are a number of posters here who almost never post anything related to basketball and their lethargic comments are their signature... Yet you let that slide...

If you are going to moderate then moderate... If you want to take a point of view then take a point of view...

But to promote a clique-like atmosphere which is already rampant on this board is contemptible...

To flash your "moderator badge" in an effort to embellish your view of Billy Knight is equally farcical

BK inherited a team that was swept out of the second round of the playoffs. He blew up the roster and we were the joke of the league for ten years.

This is full of outright lies.

I won't even discuss the lies as it would only dignify this nonsense... none of it is true, from beginning to end

When I see this type of dishonesty and deception in a post...

I know the rest is not worth reading

via draft? yeah, because the reason the Hawks have been to the playoffs was because of horford and marvin, not JJ and Bibby...

And the grizzlies only went to the playoffs in the second season after he left and Jerry West acquired Mike Miller, James Posey and Bonzi Wells.

OMG...

You are gonna channel Jerry West now?

Why don't you give us a brief chronology of the state of the Memphis Grizzlies when Jerry West left that franchise in ashes

Why would you even touch that...

That's bad strategy if you are anti-BK

No sane person would even begin to question the assertion that the Grizzlies were in excellent shape and on the upswing when BK left them for the Hawks...

Jerry West waltz's in... get's his pound of flesh off of BK's work and proceeds to burn the franchise to ashes...

That team is so desperate in his wake...

They signed Allen Iverson this off-season

Bad move my friend

Besides the Bulls how many of these teams played and won together. You got a lot of question marks to answer.

Yeah...

I don't get that either...

How did the TEAM benefit from those picks

It is a beautiful example of what is so exasperating about the BK hate...

It's like hey, this guy and that guy got picked, but there is no regard for the composition of the TEAM

BK's resume quick and easy. He takes a dysfunctional team Vancouver Grizzilies, Atlanta Hawks and he turns them into playoff teams via draft. He must be doing something right because if the team sticks with his core and philosophy(Teague and Jamal are BK type of players Big/Athletic Guards) they continue to get better(our Atlanta Hawks). Once they decide to go in another direction(Grizzilies), they go in another direction. BK's next venture will indeed be proof of this, it's just a question of who would give him the freedom to create his vision (I doubt New York gives him a try because they think Lebron will be their savior).

When Billy leaves, you will be better than you were before he got there.

I think Billy's formula works too...

But there is often a political component to sports and BK does not play that game...

He wont be nice to ignorant sports talk hosts (790 the zone - the authors of the BK hate mongering)

He wont make picks to satisfy a thirst for moral victories...

He wants the TEAM to get better...

Ours is

I feel like I am talking into the vacuum of space with the amount of discussion my posts have received from those who are arguing that Knight is an outstanding drafter of a GM.

Dude...

I was goin back and forth with this dlpin cat...

He's good...

got guts...

stays on topic..

Put his list of GM's out there while others were stalling and making excuses...

I saw that list of teams you put up...

We were looking at specific General Managers to try to establish some standard of measurement for individual GM's which I have never seen done in the BK hate parade...

Listing franchises is a little different...

For example, I do not think Danny Ainge drafted Chauncey Billups...

If you are going by franchises why stop a six... Why not do all of them... How do you compare the performance of a franchise and use it to establish a standard for an individual

B.T.W.

I did not say BK was an "outstanding" drafter.

I maintain that he did a good job and that the hateful rhetoric directed at him is unwarranted and baseless.

It is understandable if you reflect and wonder what if we had this player or that player...

I am sure the GM's themselves do that all the time...

It is quite another thing when you deny the productivity that you have in an effort to aggrandize that thing which you do not have

who said anything about "worshiping Walsh?" I mentioned people who drafted better. But this discussion is going nowhere given the absolute irrationality of some here. The day any other team takes a serious interest in hiring BK as a GM is the day I revisit the question of whether he was good or not.

Offer to cede accepted

It's been a pleasure...

You are an excellent rival.

"To whom does Calahorra belong... "

here's the bottom line on BK:

seasons as a GM in the NBA: 7 (2 with grizzlies, 5 with hawks)

Winning seasons as a GM: 0

Division Titles as a GM: 0

Playoffs as a GM: 1

Seasons with 30 or fewer wins: 6

Lottery Picks: 8

number of all stars selected in the lottery: 1

Disappointing

I had come to expect more from you

Certainly if you are building through the draft from the bottom up it will take time for those players to develop

Your "point" here seems to place more emphasis on how fast a player or plan develops (ie whether someone or something developed or evolved before BK actually left)

As opposed to whether it develops over all

For example, what's more gratifying

The short-lived fandangle you get from a Jamal Tinsley (the path Walsh chose)

Or the sustained excellence of a Kobe Bryant even if it means a little bit of a wait...

I could see if we had become accustomed to overnight sports successes and oh... i don't know... WINNING here in the ATL... home of the demanding sports fan and sold out arenas

Give me a break

It's just another not so oblique attempt to distract from the fact that the roster constructed by Billy Knight has done very well the last two years, is expected to do well this year

And is clearly expected to get even better in years to come...

Meantime...

Chris Paul's team stinks, they are losing, in fact the overall quality of the of the team's productivity is decaying in spite of the fact that they are several million over the cap

Oh yeah... his coach just got fired

I'm not the one calling CP3 a coach killer... but

"his coach just got fired"

Not to mention... he is getting harangued by Rajon Rhondo now

How much longer before this guy is no longer even part of the national conversation any more... And we are only 4 yrs into his career

I thought the trajectory was supposed to be in the opposite direction

And you really want me to ignore the achievements of this franchise for that?

You can worship Donnie Walsh and castigate Billy Knight to your own heart's delight...

At the end of the day... Walsh's record shows that in 20+ years as a General Manager

1) The best player he ever drafted was Reggie Miller...

2) He passed on Kobe

Suffice it to say that if:

"passing on Kobe" became a sports idiom...

Billy Knight certainly did not... ahem... "pass on Kobe" my friend

Ex, I enjoy reading your posts because, whether or not I agree with your overall point, your arguments are thoughtful and well-constructed. With regards to Josh Childress, I feel like your point, as I interpret it, is somewhat dishonest. If I'm reading your post as you intended it (and it's possible that I'm not), you're essentially saying:

Billy Knight no longer has a job as a GM because he fails to maximize the value of his draft position. In evidence of that, consider that sixth overall pick Josh Childress is no longer in the NBA, and that Shelden Williams and Marvin Williams, 5th and 2nd picks respectively, were drafted ahead of substantially more productive players.

While it's factually correct that Josh Childress no longer plays in the NBA, the insinuation that this fact is somehow tied to player performance (since the above quotation focuses on relative player performance) is incorrect. Childress no longer plays in the NBA because Olympiakos- due to lack of salary cap and tax laws more favorable to players- could offer him a much, much better salary than any NBA team.

In the summer of his restricted free agency, Childress drew interest, IIRC, from the Hawks, Spurs, Lakers, and a few other teams. This past offseason the Bucks tried to sign Childress. But no one can come close to offering him the type of money he can make in Greece. Childress plays in Europe by choice, not because of lack of interest or poor performance.

On the subject of Billy Knight (this part isn't specifically addressed to you, Exodus), I'm a proud BK hater. I only liked one of his FA moves (Bibby for crap) and two of his draft picks (Smoove and Horford). But in this nine page thread of hate and love, I haven't seen one post acknowledge that the Hawks never fired Billy Knight. He was offered a one year contract after our playoff run (just like Mike Woodson) and he declined to accept that offer. Given last year's success, he might very likely still be Atlanta's GM if he'd signed the contract (thank God for small miracles). But as it stands, Billy Knight left us, not the other way around.

Damn

Who the heck is this guy?

Calm, cool, collected

Part of the opposition of course

But we may end up with some constructive discourse hear after all

I explained this in that Josh Smith praising thread. If it was directed at anybody, it was directed at Josh Smith.

Ok but

Josh has an efficiency rating of 23 and is shooting almost 60% from the field.

Nobody hates a "Smoove" jumper more than I do

I count them as turnovers

But if he is shooting in that paint he has a green light from me

I will never complain about a shot he takes in the paint

And how many and1's does this guy have this season

I just don't think you can ignore leaving a pile of money on the table and waking up one morning and finding all these "new developments"

That said I still felt good about what I actually heard (not read) from JJ regarding the matter after the Nuggets game

I think hearing JJ gives you a better context than reading his quotes

:write a letter:

The good: With our present record -- 5-2., suppose Hawks play :500 ball thru their next 50 games.

That would make our record : 30-27. We're over .500 and things are looking fine.

The bad: Suppose we were @ - - 2-5 right now. With the same .500 ball thru their next 50 games.

That would make our record 27-30. Hawks are looking bad and struggle trying to get to .500 for

the year. How sad.

Having this early, winning record is SO important.

:top secret:

I'm a happy Hawks fan right now. Winning does that, doesn't it.

Hawks have looked great in winning and looked terrible in losing, especially the Bobcats. Charlotte

has the Hawks number, especially @ their house. I expect the same results any time we visit them

this season - - That's just the way things are.

Washington has been picked to finish above us @ # 4, leaving us worse thn last season. I find that

hard to believe. And, we gotta go to Boston. Things should get exciting in the next few days!!

GO HAWKS!!!

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Refreshing

You can't just single out two good players and say he did better than Ainge. Ainge didn't draft Marvin, Shelden, Acie and Childress.

Well when are you ever gonna have the guts to make a point.

All of your comments are the same...

A chirp hear... An interuption there

You obviously don't want to make an assertion out of fear you might get run

Your comments are consistently the most lethargic of them all

The Bulls and Thunder are still rebuilding and don't have any rings, on that u r corect but where are our rings?????????? The question is did those teams draft better than BK and the answer is an unquestionable YES!!!!!

Why does he have to show rings?

He said he appreciates BK.

You guys chimed in any wanted to trash BK and had the audacity to say that the Bulls and Thunder have drafted better...

Ok...

Prove it...

Where are their rings?

I am not trashing them

They may be doing quite well

But they certainly are not doing better than the Hawks...

So for you to just crassly assert that they drafted better means nothing

Im not moving the goal posts. The question is who was better at drafting. Donnie Walsh missed some, but hit some too. As such, the difference between what could have been and what was was actually a lot smaller than the difference between what the hawks could have been and what it is. Of Walsh's 20 odd drafts, how many would the pacers' fans like a do over? Maybe 5 or 6. Of BK's 5 drafts as a hawk, how many would hawks fans like a do over? 3? 4?

There's a big difference between missing on a multiple championship winner (KOBE) vs. a guy that could have won you a couple of more regular season games (CHRIS PAUL)

You can split hairs and introduce as many contingencies and provisions that you chose

The fact is...

The players Billy Knight picked make up one of the most promising line ups in the NBA, both for the present and the future, with great character...

This example shows that any misses Billy Knight may have had are equaled or dwarfed by misses that others had

Even the most esteemed of them

Don't go through contortions to make the claim that a single individual missing on:

Kobe Bryant, Tim Hardaway, Steve Nash, Gilbert Arenas, Manu Ganobli, Sam Cassell, Shawn Kemp, Germaine O'neal and more... is some how less of a big deal

(I got tired of researching especially since any reasonable person would accept that this is a pretty impressive list of swing and misses)

That coupled by the fact that your best pick is Reggie Miller?

You keep stating, well he did not have as many high picks...

Well that's just another excuse and a contingency

He missed a helluva lot of good players regardless of where he was picking

If you want to introduce that exception, I could introduce exceptions of my own...

1) Billy inherited a worse team and franchise

2) Billy's ownership group was not willing to spend money on free agents that would have gotten us out of the lottery quicker...

Fact is, just getting out of the lottery is not some huge feat... You can bring in a bunch of marginal veterans and get yourself out of the lottery

Indiana, as a franchise, made many moves like this, One of which cost them a chance to draft Michael Jordan

(i don't blame Walsh for this)

Doesn't do much for your franchise or the future of your team... It's just a moral victory...

Not to mention there were a slew of years that the Pacers traded out of the first round all together

In addition...

I am not sure if that position makes it better or worse for Walsh.

In other words, for example

If you are picking at the top of the draft with a lot of great talent, great resumes, great attributes over all with a lot of different players

I can see how that might explain why you could miss on someone like Gilbert Arenas for example...

But when you are down as far as the 27th pick of the NBA draft?

Let's get real!

All that talent and debris is off the board and you still miss a guy like that and you want to use that as a qualifier?

It should not take much back and forth to understand that the higher up you pick in the draft the more likely someone picked after your guy might be better

But when you are down to the bottom of the barrel

I just don't see how you could miss out on a boat load of guys like that...

And we talkin about chris paul and brandon roy...

There is a very real possibility that neither paul or roy will ever make it to the conference final much less the NBA Finals...

The Hawks current roster is close than they are...

This is just an empty argument...

The only reasonable thing to do is concede that to judge BK soley on who he did not draft, with no recognition of the current state of the roster and franchise is ridiculous...

Especially when, you yourself, pointed out qualifications for Walsh's misses of which there are undoubtedly many

I like debating you...

you use facts that can be discussed rather than exchanging personal barbs

Yes, Walsh missed on a lot of talent. But he also had a few quite amazing hits:

Reggie Miller at 11

Antonio Davis at 45

Dale Davis at 13

Al Harrington at 25

Granger at 17

If in a 20 year career you only find 5 drafts he would like to do over, that is a pretty good career. BK would certainly like to do over 4 out of 5 of his years. In fact, the pacers would not trade Granger for anyone BK took, straight up.

BK is criticized for "what could have been"

Don't move the goal post

Gotta give you props though...

You stepped up to the plate and put your chips on the table...

I like that...

This feels like a real debate

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Rose)

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

I'm gonna start with Walsh...

I personally think Walsh is a very good General Manager... HOWEVER...

That is based on my own standard of judging general managers, where you look at what the team is doing

Unfortunately... BK is being criticized for "what could have been", "who we could have had"...

So according to y'alls standard, your impression of Walsh should not be as good as mine...

You see, if you composed a team of who Walsh did not draft and compared it to who he did draft, the Pacers "would have" won championship after championship... With players he did not draft

1988 - Took Rick Smits one all star game over

Mitch Richmond (Six Time All Star Rookie of the Year)

1989 - Took George Mcloud (who is this guy?) over

Shawn Kemp (All Star)

Tim Hardaway (All Star/All Pro)

Vlade Divac (All Star)

Mookie Blaylock (All Star)

Clifford Robinson (All Star)

1992 - Took Malik Sealy over

Latrell Sprewell (All Star)

1993 - Took Scott Haskin over

Sam Cassell (All Star)

Nick Van Exel (All Star)

1996 - Took Eric Dampier over

Steve Nash (All Star, All Pro, MVP)

Jermaine O'Neal (All Star)

Zydrunas Ilgauskas (All Star)

Peja Stojakovic (All Star)

Kobe Bryant

2001 - Took Jamaal Tinsley over

Gilbert Arenas (All Star)

Wait a minute...

Dis cat took Eric Dampier over Kobe Bryant. I refuse to continue...

This guy could have built one of the Greatest Dynasties in NBA history just off of his draft day misses/blunders alone.

The person I was replying to asked who drafted better than BK, which is why I didnt discuss trades.

Correct...

I appreciate that. We are getting a lot of comments about the Ainge trade and others like that. Which is outside the scope of what BK is being criticized for. BK is criticized for draft picks.

Who did not know that Pierce, Garnett, Ray Allen would be a championship caliber squad. Making that trade has more to do with circumstances than skill as a talent evaluator. It helped sway Garnett and Allen that Pierce was already on the team, which Ainge had nothing to do with. It helped that Ownership was willing to make the financial commitment which some owners are not and the GM is not on a level playing field with others.

Nevertheless...

I am loving the opinions based on actual facts

I'm still soaking it all in right now... I see a few that I'm gonna cut off at the knees

We have a lot of information here right now...

I am trying to look at who was listed as better and why...

After I soak some of this information up I'm gonna come out blastin

Understandable!! But we are all grown hopefully and we got to look at what we have now. True BK is no longer with us(at least on the payroll) but the core that he used to build this team is still present to this day. How can you like the team without giving some credit to the person that built the team? Simple question for adults young and old and would of could of should of's should be left for that type of post. This was not one of those. This was suppose to be a reality based grown man topic showing appreciation where it was due. Point Blank.

Well done

You guys that defend Burger King and challenge others to do the research to prove some other GM was better then him are a joke.

And yes, I'm directing this at you.

It's easy to challenge someone else to do the homeowork if you're too lazy to do it yourself.

You do the research. Billy Knight blew lottery pick after lottery pick.

You don't want me to assess the damage because you'll be running out of this thread with your underwear between your butt cheeks.

You can direct it at whoever you choose

It's still equally irrelevant

If you are going to make the argument that he did not draft well

There has to be some standard of measurement otherwise you are just driveling

If you have any basis for your assertions you should be able to name them

This is actually a credit to BK.

I wish he could see this

The haters can't name General Managers that drafted better

You're lazy and I'm not playing your game.

The facts are BK is no longer with the Hawks and he is currently unemployed.

The ball is in your court.

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

Case closed

You want me to do 1 to 2 hrs worth of research and typing covering 5 years worth of draft picks.

Shows how baseless your argument is.

If he is as bad as you say he is you should already know who they are.

Otherwise what are you basing your criticisms on.

If you say he did not draft well

You should know who did draft well

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

You guys that defend Burger King and challenge others to do the research to prove some other GM was better then him are a joke.

And yes, I'm directing this at you.

It's easy to challenge someone else to do the homeowork if you're too lazy to do it yourself.

You do the research. Billy Knight blew lottery pick after lotter pick.

You don't want me to assess the damage because you'll be running out of this thread with your underwear between your butt cheeks.

No you are the one who is lazy.

This thread was started to show appreciation to two GMs.

If you did not like it you could have moved on.

You guys chose to make the assertion that he was no good and "less than average" or however it was phrased.

Prove it.

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

Conversation Terminated not only did you not answer the question( Who has a better drafting record than BK). Pau Gasol, Boris Diaw, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford, Josh Childress to name a few (Regardless of where they are now, there should not be no denying these are pretty good players). But you attack back with the bold statement above and really it's hard to even read the rest of your paragraph.

My sentiments exactly.

Give me a clean list without that other debris

I already see that his retort is laughable.

If he does not get a clean list. I will still tear that one up.

It is laughable

Absolutely laughable

I see why they don't want to go on the record

Will cut him tomorrow

You are trying to get someone with common sense to argue the obvious. It's up to you to convince us BK was worth a damn -

Well well well...

Here comes the Calvary...

With all the impact of a colossal THUD

Suffice it to say you have a bloated since of self importance if you think I am obligated to convince you of anything

The argument supported by you and yours has been invalidated, undermined, annihilated, expunged, extirpated, mocked, trashed, parodied and whatever imaginable form of degradation is analytically possible

You only embarrass yourself by continuing

Right now you are just hoping you can keep the conversation going so you can find some small kernel, some morsel, of moral victory you can hang your hat on...

Ahhh... That sacred moral victory you and yours cherish so deerly..

Well hang it on this...

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

You want me to validate with a list. You answer your own challenge; find the ones who did worse

LOL!

Nice try Sherlock.

Put up or shut up.

Suffice it to say that if you can not meet the challenge you have no basis for your hateful remarks about Billy Knight

The fact of the matter is you guys have been so over board with this non sense it should not be a difficult task at all to perform

And then to try that elementary reversal is laughable

I guess I know how to bring this issue to a close from now on...

Not to mention it is starting to look like you guys are working in shifts trying to stay afloat

When one gets busted you page the other

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

It doesn't matter whether GMs talk about them or not, All-Stars are necessary to win titles.

Bird was All-NBA First Team 9 times

McHale - 7 time All-Star

Parish - 9 time All-Star

All three were aquired through the smart use of draft picks. Good thing BK wasn't their GM during that time or they would have 3 less titles.

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed