Sasquatch

???????? Were u not just talking about gms and drafts???????? How did Ex's post have nothing to do with the point?

My goodness.

Yes I was talking about GMs and Drafts...

Problem is

There were a few DETAILS in between

Try...

READING the post...

maybe a light will come on

Somebody needs to start paying me for these tutorials

yeah i am sure aquiriing Bird, McHale and Parish had nothing to do with winning titles.

I would give you a C- for effort but...

What's the point in running in circles...

It's just another one of your silly tactics...

You try to escape the point with loose associations

I have seen people admitted to Georgia Regional for less than this...

The challenge was to name a GM that bragged about the drafting all-stars

Auerbauch was cited as an example of a GM talking about Championships

Like I said before...

Hawksquawk needs a play room

He wouldn't have won those championships without his smart use of draft picks. he picked Bird a year before Bird actually turned pro. Bird led Indiana State to an undefeated season (until they met Magic in the Finals) AFTER the Celtics drafted him.

The next year Auerbach traded the first pick in a draft deal which landed McHale and Parish.

Without those two great draft moves they don't win those three titles.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the point.

BK did not draft any all-stars, any ROYs...

In my humble opinion, excellent is not picking just two starters with five lottery picks; and zero all-stars to date.

If personal accolades are so important...

Why don't NFL teams draft the Heisman trophy winner #1 overall every year.

That is arguably the most prestigious personal accolade in all of sports.

I want you to quote the general managers you have heard talking about the number of all-stars they drafted.

I know for a fact that Red Aurerbauch talked about the Championships he won

I don't remember him ever talking about who made the all-star game

I guess you are aurguing he should not have drafted better players?

Billy Knights players are a perennial playoff team sir... They are good players... No reasonable person can dispute that.

You can make your point more effectively by answering the challenge...

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

Your opinion is getting more humble by the second

Also want to say, again, I have the utmost respect for Sund too. His work has been excellent. He deserves an enormous amount of credit. Don't want to lose sight of the original poster's theme.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/hawks-guard-gets-eastern-191183.html

Happy to see this for Joe.

Funny thing is...

I see areas where it would not be hard for him to be even more productive.

Guess this is another example of how personal accolades come when the TEAM is successful

I do not hate Billy Knight. I just think he was a below average GM. Furthermore, you calling me and others "fools" just because we have a different opinion indicates at least some moderate hate on your part. Billy Knight is not a fool, moron, or idiot. He is a college educated intelligent human being. I just think he was a less than average GM when it came to making draft day decisions.

You think calling me and the others here a fool, who do not share your opinion, makes you a winner; once you lose all composure in a debate and revert to name calling, you are the one who has lost....of course that is just my opinion also!

With all due respect...

There are certain guidelines to be followed when debating...

Debating is not so much about being right or wrong as it is about being able to support your position...

You guys are all over the place and you can not substantiate your position...

Your position is one ad hoc argument behind the other...

At some point you can make the assertion, in a gentlemanly fashion, that that person and/or his position is foolish... It is not necessarily personal as much as it is an expression of exasperation...

I have said many times that many of you are not worthy of debate...

You are more agitators than anything...

For example...

There have been many attempts to walk you guys back from the ledge regarding this All-Star business but it is pointless...

Part of the fallacy is that you criticize BK for not having All - Stars and then criticize him for having lottery picks...

Your argument is as follows, "all championship teams have All-Stars"

OK...

Those Championship teams also have lottery picks...

So how do you praise for one and hate for the other...

It's is an argument that can't be made with any consistency

You have to constantly add caveats to keep it afloat

Did not know that; for me this debate has run its course...as Tiger says "It is what it is" :thumbsupsmileyanim:

OK...

Now both of y'all can't read.

He is not the one that said that...

I did... LOL

You guys just can't get your facts straight but you insist on proceeding with this whimsical position

And yes...

You are right...

It is what it is

Better yet

The thing speaks for itself

I do not hate Billy Knight. I just think he was a below average GM. Furthermore, you calling me and others "fools" just because we have a different opinion indicates at least some moderate hate on your part. Billy Knight is not a fool, moron, or idiot. He is a college educated intelligent human being. I just think he was a less than average GM when it came to making draft day decisions.

You think calling me and the others here a fool, who do not share your opinion, makes you a winner; once you lose all composure in a debate and revert to name calling, you are the one who has lost....of course that is just my opinion also!

If Billy Knight is a less than average GM...

Give me the names of General Managers in the NBA that have drafted better than Billy Knight...

You're a smart guy so I know this wont be a problem for you.

P.S.

You guys are getting killed

BK was the man, no doubt about it. Sund has done a good job getting us a solid bench but BK built this team. He not only built it he had to seel swamp land in Florida to get the foundation to build it on. I COSIGN THE ORIGINAL POST TEN FOLD.

Cosign the cosign

These guys are all about hate. The facts are plain for them to see and they engage in all manner of contortions to try to deny it

Look at is this way...

The original poster simply offered a kind acknowledgment to Billy Knight

And all hell breaks lose

What's up with that.

The Portland Trailblazer's GM passed on the Greatest Basketball Player of All Time. That player also won rings I might add, and Portland has nothing but good things to say about him and they don't get this hateful backlash...

Here is the clincher...

We are talking about the city of Atlanta

A city that is known for losing in sports

Matter of fact... many people have tried to make the argument that Atlanta is not even a sports town.

So...

A couple of questions for you...

1) With all the losing that has gone on in this city... How the heck is one guy singled out as being particularly inept?

If he is so bad... show me your precedent for winning. Show me where you have come accustom to a particular standard and who in Atlanta set that standard?

2) What other General Managers in the History of Atlanta Sports has left his replacement with a playoff team?

3) What other General Managers in the History of Atlanta Sports has left his replacement with a Young playoff team, with Good Contracts, and No off the court issues?

It is becoming more and more obvious that the Hate Billy Knight rallying cry is being exposed for the empty hateful rhetoric that it is.

I quoted the part about Bret Farve. Thought that was enough to get my point across; which is if you want to read about Bret Farve or another GM and his draft picks, you need to go to their board or another part of this board. We are Atanta Hawk fans and this is a Hawks board; so posting about another teams GM or football is not something we would do here. But if it makes you happy, here is the rant about football and other NBA GM's that you think is so important to post on a Atlanta Hawks BB.

Now if you go to other teams boards as you should, if this is what you are looking for, you will find plenty of disappointment with some draft picks and GMs; both past and present. But I bet you won't find any saying, Damn I wish Billy Knight was our GM and he would draft for us. Not even in his homestate of Pennsylvania....

Ladies and Gentlemen...

This is a punt

It is also a concession of defeat.

He ignores the glaring problem with his argument by simply saying... That's not my problem...

Just so you know...

Whenever you bring your ridiculous argument against BK...

I will reflexively reintroduce this argument

I know you have no answer for it

It's like Colt 45...

Works every time

The reason I did not quote this is I do not need a half page rant to get my point across; and I have already done that. With the exception of Horford, BK blew to some extent every lottery pick he had.

The title of this thread is Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund. It is not "I am so happy we are a playoff team." So the gist of the title is BK and Sund have both done a good job and should be appreciated. You don't think people should bash BK who is two years removed; yet think its ok to give him praise. Like I said, it appears yours and Sillents is the only opinions you wish to hear ...

Sorry I got you two confused; but my point is still valid. Don't read this thread if you don't want to read a differing opinion. And furthermore, if you want to read about other teams past and present GM's and their drafts, you need to go to a different portion of this board or to their board. In case you have not noticed this is the HomeCourt portion of a Atlanta Hawks board; so posting threads about Bret Farve or another teams GM would be off topic. Who is not paying attention now?

Yes...

You are confused

LOL...

You still did not quote the part I dared you to quote... LOL

As a matter of fact you quoted everything but that... LOL

Which can only mean one thing

You and the rest of those with your "point" of view knows that your position is pointless

This is nothing more than an empty, fruitless, and unimportant and unprecedented battle cry based on nothing more than hate

It is the hypocrisy in his statements that make them so bad. He only had 1 assist and went one on one more than anyone this game. I mean pot calling the kettle black. This seems more like " I'm sick of this team" than "I want to change this team for the better".

This is the first thought that came into my mind when I have read some of his quotes...

Like when he said this was a soft team...

I'm thinkin'... yeah that's true, but you played how many minutes? and went to the free throw line how many times?

I still think Joe just has a demeanor that comes off different when you read it rather than hearing it for yourself...

I have always remembered when we were trying to get Joe from Phoenix...

There was this rumor that he asked Phoenix not to match...

Someone interviewed him and asked him about that and he did not hesitate...

"Yes. I did tell them that."

Period. Over. Done.

I was like wow. I can't recall a player being that straight up about something like that.

At the end of the day. I just want him to play assertive. Give me the impression that he is not intimidated.

After that, he can take whatever shot he wants... Verbally or on the court

I will always appreciate what he did for this team by leaving Phoenix to join us and EVERYBODY said he was a fool...

Having him here gave us some stability and a focal point to build on...

But if I catch him in the fetal position against an elite team again... I will blast! I will blast!

Joe Johnson was not happy with his Hawks' teammates after Friday's loss, saying "we became a selfish team. Now everybody wants to go one-on-one. It's me, me, me."

"Everybody who touches it wants to score," Johnson said. "I really think guys on this team don't know their roles, so it's killing us. And it's going to continue to kill us." Johnson, whose numbers are down, is playing for a contract and it was not tough to see this coming, as he's not used to having a gunner like Jamal Crawford in the backcourt with him. The Hawks are a dangerous and deep team, but Mike Woodson had better grab some control before internal strife becomes a real problem. via rotoworld.com

What a leader Joe is. All he does is whine now and I am getting sick of it.

I don't know...

I saw Joe's interview tonight...

He was pissed!

And we won by 25 against an elite team...

It was the kind of ticked off you can appreciate as a fan though

My point is if I had not seen the interview and just read the comments I might have misinterpreted them...

The impression I got tonight was that he just wants to raise the bar

He honestly did not seem satisfied with the way the team played tonight...

Although I am happy about the win, he has a point...

There was a time towards the end of the 3rd quarter when the Nuggets seemed to want to quit and the Hawks lifted them off the ropes... Somebody has to call a stop to that

I am concerned that there are times in the half court set when it seems like the pass should go from Joe to Crawford and it ends up goin from Joe to...

Well... Someone else

As for this comment,

"it was not tough to see this coming, as he's not used to having a gunner like Jamal Crawford in the backcourt with him. The Hawks are a dangerous and deep team, but Mike Woodson had better grab some control before internal strife becomes a real problem"

I think someone is just desperate for a story...

That said, if "strife" does rear its ugly head, it will only look bad on Joe because Crawford has been deferential to a fault. He passes to Joe regularly. As well as to other teammates. I know ZaZa loves'em

You opened this can of worms and now you complain about not getting the post you want to hear. Sorry dude but its a democracy.

What are you talking about?

1) I did not start the thread. So... there's your can of worms.

2) ?Getting the post I want to hear... "democracy"... O M G

What does democracy have to do with this and which post have I requested?

HAWKSQUAWK NEEDS A PLAY ROOM FOR ALL THESE DELINQUENT CHILDREN.

BK built this team and we are pretty good. No one is arguing that point.

What school did you go to?

This is exactly the point we have been arguing!

What most of us are aurguing for is to be better

Actually that's not what is being argued here.

How is trashing a GM that has been gone for 2 seasons going to make you better?

we clearly had chances to draft all-star caliber players and better over all players than Chilz, Marvin, Acie, and Shelden

name the one gm that has not had players drafted after his pick that turned out to be a more prominent individual player.

you know why so many teams rely on free agents more than us?

you wanna know why our personnel is one of the most stable in the league?

because we drafted well

Any reason why none of y'all have quoted this:

"I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack, yet the guys that traded Farve never get ridiculed (listen for the chorus of synchronized excuses)

Always mystified as to how the other gm's that did not draft Paul or Brandon Roy never get this nonsense

I'm sorry...

Is there some one out there that did not draft Kobe? Has Kobe won a ring? Oh more than one you say? Who is getting dogged over that?

Has Amare Stoudamire been to an all-star game? Really?

How about Gilbert Arenas?

Did Ben Wallace go to an All-star game?

Who didn't draft Tony Parker? Has he been to an all-star game? Has blood been shed?

Where was Ginobli drafted? Can you here me now?

Jameer Nelson made it to the all-star game... What gm is getting bashed over that...

I can fill this page with scores of examples like this"

Don't think I have not noticed

Don't think I don't know why you have not quoted it

It's because you know it shows how frivolous and unimportant your point is

You don't have to agree with those of us that think this. As you can see no ones opinion is being swayed; and if differing opinions piss you off to the point of not wanting to hear them, you should not have started this thread.

This is just how ill informed you are...

I DID NOT START THE THREAD!

Wanna know why you do not know that?

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT READ...

YOU DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS

I am not trying to sway you...

You guys quote my comments like it is scripture

The only way you can get me to quote you is to have me quote your response to my quote...

yall just like hangin on to my ****. I'm almost running out of room for all y'all

I have told y'all before that it's a waste of my time to debate you.

There are a few people here that I like to debate because...

1) They pay attention

2) They think

You...

Do Not

This is a direct quote.

You are right.

That is a direct quote.

Show me where in this direct quote that I said they were not good players.

The fact is you are not trying to have a constructive debate.

You are just trying to agitate.

According to the rules that is not acceptable.

Do me a favor and just move on dude.

We've had a team that boasted the lineup of

Jason Terry ( Up and Coming Guard)

Stephen Jackson( Getting into his prime)

Glen Robinson(All star scorer)

Shareef Abdul Rahim( All star)

Theo Ratliff(all star shot blocker at the time)

Didn't work we had to rebuild, Guess What? We are not the only team in the NBA that has tried and failed and won't be the last. Most of us are so mad at BK because nobody likes the rebuilding process especially when you are struggling to even be considered Mediocre. Get over it, his plan worked. He did in one of the hardest ways possible by starting from scratch with pretty much all draft picks. No he did not pick the best player and was more focused on creating the best team. Now all Sund has to do is fill in the blanks(not saying that this is always easy but I like the way he is going about filling it). Currently these are the teams that have or are close to reaching their ceiling and need to rebuild eventually to get out of this box.

Spurs Their All-Stars are getting old and on the decline.

Hornets Can not get Paul enough help in their current stage and Paul has too much pride to let his team be under mediocre to get it.

Jazz Have gone about as far as they can with their current roster and some of their key peices are declining or distracted.

Celtics Will be on their last legs in a couple of years.

Lakers Bynum is going to have to reign supreme in about 4 years.

Clippers Are just cursed but even if they get it together most of their stars are getting up in age.

Suns Are already beginning the course.

Heat Are a year into their rebuilding process. Wade is just that good so it's hard to notice.

Wizards Can give it another good run or two maybe but if you notice they have Blatche, Young, McGee, Crittenton, Foye hiding in the background. Well maybe not hiding.

Cavaliers Are in a make and break season and even if they keep Lebron but don't win they may be in need of some major revamping.

OKC May be seeing close to their finished product and just need time to develop.

Bobcats Are still trying to figure out how to get to the playoffs in what is now an even tougher conference/division.

Rockets Have been rebuilding slowly but surely they just haven't fell much because they are a tough bunch.

Mavericks Have to go for it all because they do not have much time left and are getting up in age in basketball years.

Pistons Started the process once they got rid of Ben/Chauncey.

Bulls Are close to their last stages of rebuilding.

Raptors Are currently looking like a team that maybe good but not great and Chris Bosh may not have the patience to wait.

Nuggets Are in their prime now but will have to start making some decisions if they can't win it all soon because they won't be in their prime for long. But Carmelo like Wade,Dwight, Lebron are always good pieces to build around. It's just hard on a minimum budget to get them more star power.

All these teams are obviously rebuilding.

Knicks

Warriors

Pacers

Nets

Grizzilies

Bucks

Kings

Wolves

Besides us the Blazers, Magic, 76ers in the next 5 years their are going to be a whole lot of changes in personal and power(elite status). I just wanted to give credit to BK/Sund for making sure our rebuilding process is not continues. They did not spend a whole lot of money for stars in their prime to get the win now and rebuild later. Even when doing things like this chemistry can be an issue(Look at Grizzilies on paper talent wise they look great). But the players they brought in might be cancerous enough for them to lose Rudy Gay and who knows who else. Look at Dallas who feel like they have too much money to have to rebuild but may eventually see their core not getting them too much farther. Or the Knicks waiting on pipe dreams that may or may not happen. Warriors have plenty of talent but look to be running in circles.

Can we as Hawks fans at least be thankful that our core is very talented and should have some of the strongest chemistry in the league(which is very important to win a championship) in a couple of years. We may not have to worry about rebuilding for many years to come and can now just add in pieces that fit.

Wow

Just wow

This guy has put up some nice stuff

I find it interesting that just the mere fact that he wanted to give a modicum of credit to both GMs has generated such hateful responses.

I second the notion that BK did a good job

There is a reason nba teams do not build through the draft...

Because it is almost impossible... Well, BK did it

Sund has been fantastic because he could see what nobody else could. He has shown incredible vision and skill.

Just a note...

I am always suspicious of those that claim a particular person has absolutely no redeeming qualities... When you get to that point there is always a hidden agenda or motive

You are saying Paul is not good because he hasn't won a championship

See...

This is where the conversation ends...

You won't hesitate to make up something and attribute it to some one...

I never said this...

I never insinuated it...

I can't debate with you when you have such a dearth of credibility

Too bad championships aren't handed out after the first five games of the year... Cool off you to brush off four years of superior play by the Hornets in favor of the last five games... that definitely proves your point that BK did a great job in not drafting Paul. :laughing5:

Anyway, the Hornets record this year has nothing to do with Paul's play and everything to do with NO's front office and the fact they spent 25 million + a year on Peja and Emeka Okafor/Tyson Chandler. Paul is playing like the best basketball player on the planet. The problem with NO is that they have absolutely no talent outside of David West and Okafor, and even those two players are not that great.( No way David West ever makes an All Star team on another team without the best PG feeding him the ball.)

You can lose sleep over a guy that has not won a championship if you choose.

I wont

I am always mystified as to how BK can take so much heat for not drafting a guy that has not won jack, yet the guys that traded Farve never get ridiculed (listen for the chorus of synchronized excuses)

Always mystified as to how the other gm's that did not draft Paul or Brandon Roy never get this nonsense

I'm sorry...

Is there some one out there that did not draft Kobe? Has Kobe won a ring? Oh more than one you say? Who is getting dogged over that?

Has Amare Stoudamire been to an all-star game? Really?

How about Gilbert Arenas?

Did Ben Wallace go to an All-star game?

Who didn't draft Tony Parker? Has he been to an all-star game? Has blood been shed?

Where was Ginobli drafted? Can you here me now?

Jameer Nelson made it to the all-star game... What gm is getting bashed over that...

I can fill this page with scores of examples like this

The point is

This debate is pointless.

We have a good team and as much as people hate to give credit, BK built it.

What did Pete Babcock do? Where are his hate threads?

Fact is...

This is more about hate than anything.

The team isn't going to win a title without more than one All-Star (an average one at that).

The records of the Jazz and Hornets since we drafted Marvin >>>>> the Hawks record.

Stockton and Malone never won a title. I guess you wouldn't want them on the team.

More non-sense.

If we actually win a title, Crawford and Smoove will probably make the all-star team.

This incessant babble about a glorified popularity contest is fruitless.

Name one general manager that brags about how many of his players became all-stars.

He would look like a fool.

Why?

Because it is a moral victory!

It means nothing.

By the way, there is no requirement that you have a certain amount of all-stars before you can win a title.

As for the records of the jazz and hornets since we drafted Marvin?

Another moral victory.

Where are they today...

They are not even a part of any serious discussion

Just looking at them makes me glad to be a hawks fan.

Of course it would be different if they had actually won a ring during that time... but they didn't

So you have to produce some pointless statistic...

Paul >> Marvin + Horford

It isnt' even debatable. Marvin and Horford are role players that are easy to replace. All-Star pgs are not so easy to come by.

We are 4-1.

The hornets are...

well, they're not.

You can have the moral victory...

I'll take the W

Here is a couple of details for you. Not every team with a all-star wins a championship; but never in the history of the league has a team won one without at least two past/current/or future all-stars and most have three. Obsessing about your teams lack of all-stars goes hand in hand with obessing about wanting them to win championships. You are not going to accomplish one without the other.

Hope that answers your question.

This is a reach.

the goal is to win championships

Roy and Paul are both multiple All-Stars. Paul was on the short list of MVP candidates one year.

Funny how you criticize them for not winning a championship but you are heaping praise on BK who never had a winning season. This team hasn't even won a 2nd round playoff game, let alone a 2nd round series.

it's hard to debate with you because you do not pay attention to details.

I did not criticize them for not having a championship. The quoted poster used championships as a measure so I used it. He simply under cut his own argument.

That is the point.

Also what is this obsession with all-star status?

Those are moral victories.

Nique went to all-star games

Nique wanted a title

I thought we were supposed to want the TEAM to win a title.

We are closer than the hornets

we are closer than the jazz

and I believe closer than portland

You simply do not win championships in the NBA without that lights out player.

this stuff gets more unbelievable by the day

who is the lights out player that BK passed on and where is their championship?

The Hornets have already seen their best years 3-4 yrs into CP3's career!

Roy? He still has not won a championship either and his team has numerous lottery picks too...

So I guess if he does win one I can discredit it based on the same "reasoning" used to discredit BK's results

I guess your health plan doesn't have vision benefits. A team with JJ as it's best player isn't going to be a dynasty.

BK drafted Childress (not in the NBA) with the 6th pick. He also drafted Shelden (soon to be out of the NBA) with the 5th pick ahead of Roy (two time All-Star) and Foye (16 ppg last year). He drafted Marvin ahead of two franchise pgs.

There is a reason BK isn't in the NBA any more.

Fortunately for Hawk land.

BK did not draft players for their personal accolades. He drafted players to build a TEAM.

What is the marvelous CP3's team doing? HA

How about Foye's? Yeah right.

I like Roy. I still like BK.

Childress... good player.

BK always said the same thing when it came to draft picks...

"We are gonna get a good player"

He never aimed for that lights out pick. He wanted picks that were low risk and multi-talented.

It is paying off.