Antmillennium

Ok. Chris Paul and Derron Williams exhibit both the "fire in the gut" and the talent, or differing combinations of both, how you put it. Paul's Hornets got beat by nearly 60 points and are down 1-3. Williams' Jazz are done, losing 1-4.

Continue to complain and moan about Joe, I'll stick with him. We wouldn't be where we are without him, and we wouldn't have won last night without him.

Actually, we wouldn't have won without ZaZa last night. Anyway, yeah, you're right. Joe Johnson is flawless and he has being playing like an elite player this postseason. He is really earning his salary right now and showing EVERYONE what he is made of. JOE JOHNSON FOR MVP!!!!!!!

Well apparently having the "fire in your gut" WITH TALENT can only get you so far as well. What in the hell has Ben Gordon, Nate Robinson, Chris Paul, and D. Williams done in their careers? Nothing.

You don't pay attention very well. Go back and read the post. You'll see that I clearly said that there are differing combinations of talent and fire. Oh, and Chris Paul, Ben Gordon, and D. Williams have done far more than Joe Johnson has done this year in the playoffs.

Didn't Chris Paul just go 4-6 while his team got a 58 point beatdown at home?

One game does not define a person. Anybody can have a bad night. Anybody can have a moment where they don't show the fire that they normally have and really disappoint. However, what has history shown us? Anybody can point to one instance of somebody not having a good moment. Heck, I can point to a game where Josh Smith shot well from the 3-point line, but it doesn't mean that he's a good 3-point shooter. You have to look at the track-record of a player to determine what kind of player he is. Dwayne Wade dogged it in Game 1, but he sure came back and kicked our tails the next two games.

I would like to know what current players in the NBA exhibit these characteristics. In the squawkers eyes...

That's an easy one. Wade has it. Paul Pierce has it. Kobe has it. Chris Paul. Deron Williams. Ben Gordon. Artest. LeBron James. Brandon Roy. Tony Parker. Nate Robinson. Ray Allen. Heck, even Flip Murray has it. Flip's just not as good as those guys. You see, you don't have to be very talented to have that fire within you. You just have to have that fire in your gut first. However, having that "fire in your gut" will only take you so far. Likewise, talent will only take you so far. Having a good combination of both makes great players, and the right combination of talent and "fire in the gut" makes special players. Therefore, you can have differing combined levels of talent and fire. As far as Joe Johnson is concerned, he's not as athletically gifted as other elite players in the league, but, if he had that "fire in his gut" that other players have, he would make up for it because he has good physical size and tremendous basketball skill. I don't think that anyone can truly say that Joe Johnson has been busting his butt and has done everything he can to help his team win in this playoff series. That's a matter of heart and desire more than anything else.

Incapable of stepping up?

We're all disappointed in JJ, but don't say stupid stuff. This guy isnt a 3-time all-star for nothing. Teams aren't doubling him, for nothing.

The fact is that he's just not asserting himself for some reason. Why? I don't know. But it's not because he's incapable of doing it. He just isn't doing it.

He was better tonight, than he was in both games 2 and 3 though. All I want the guy to do, is when he has single coverage on him, he needs to immeadiatly try to score on his man, instead of waiting for the double team. Because when the double comes, he'll end up tossing it to Smoove who is way out of his range.

He needs to play with the same sense of urgency that Wade plays with sometimes. He's just being way too passive.

To move to the next round, he'll either have to step up, or we'll have to continue to play tremendous defense.

He definitely deserves criticism though, for his lackluster play. But incapable of stepping up? It's like some of you have completely forgotten the last 4 years, and last year's playoff game, when he was virtually unstoppable in Game 4.

If I didn't think Joe Johnson had the tools to step up, I wouldn't be so disgusted with him. However, being that he does have the tools to step up (we saw it last year vs. the Celtics), it has to be mental. Therefore, mentally, Joe Johnson is incapable of stepping up when he needs to. He doesn't have that fire within him that other superstar players have within them. Therefore, it's not stupid to say that Joe is incapable of stepping up. You can have all of the physical tools in the world, but if you lack the fire, the drive, and the mental toughness to refuse to be denied, you are rendering your physical tools useless and you have, in effect, made yourself incapable of stepping up.

Dude, even Hotlanta1981 thinks this thread sucks!

Yeah, I know. We played a great. If we play like this every night, we're going to be the champs of the NBA. Nope, nothing to be improved upon or learned from this game. The team played FLAWLESSLY!!!!! Let's go out and shoot off fireworks!!!!!!!! WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!! BRING ON LEBRON!!!!!!!!!

Yeah I mean why be happy about anything? The Hawks just won on the road for the first time in the last 12 tries in the face of pretty strange officiating. Don't enjoy it. Hate it because it wasn't pretty.

Guess you just missed that whole part about being "happy that we won", huh? However, if you can honestly say that you weren't upset while watching this game, then you're just a special kind of person. As for me, I was absolutely furious about blowing a 20-point lead in 2 or 3 minutes, having back to back 4-point plays, and Josh Smith launching three-pointers from way downtown. If you can honestly say that you weren't upset at any point during this game, then I wish I had some of that Kool-aid that you're drinking. Again, I'm glad they won. However, if they play like that again in Game 5, we're gonna get blown out.

you don't critique a win. There are no style points in the NBA. A win is a win. Enjoy it. Homecourt has swung back to the Hawks. That is big.

That sounds like something Mike Woodson would say.....

I'm glad we won, but you can definitely critique this win.

This was an infuriating game to watch. The players were playing dumb, Woodson was coaching like himself (dumb), the refs were screwing us, Josh Smith thinks he's Reggie Miller, and Joe Johnson is just terrible right now. I'm "relieved" we won, but if we play like that again, we're going to get blown out in game 5. I'm not even going to say that Joe Johnson needs to step up. I think he has demonstrated to us all that he is incapable of stepping up and that this moment is too big for him. Everybody else needs to step up, because Joe is going to score his usual 10-15 points next game, and I don't think we can count on Zaza having a monster game again.

I call it a productive loss because it allows us to see this sort of thing before we're in the playoffs getting torn a new one. Woody should go into the playoffs knowing how to adjust to situations. This is the start...

Woody won't learn. It doesn't take 12 months to learn from a mistake and change your ways if you keep getting burned by it. I've seen Bibby matched up against Paul Pierce and other players several inches taller than him too many times as a result of switching. If Woodson was going to learn his lesson, he would have done so by now. Woody will continue on the same idiotic path.

Yep, Woodson seems to forget that the team has more players on it that can score other than Joe Johnson. I can EASILY see how this could be a problem with the other teammates. Plus, it's not as if Joe has been setting league on fire either.

If it's simply a case of him not being smart then his assistants need to be in his ear about it. Law can't ask Woodson to put him in so the assistants have to get Woody to recognize this. I think that there are things you fire a coach for but I don't think that this is one of them, you just have to surround him with veteran assistant coaches who he respects and will listen to. I just think that Woody is not capable of managing his bench and what's happening on the floor and he may never get there and if we depend on that to happen we'll end up wasting talents like Acie year after year.

The bottom line is that I think Woody is among the middle class of coaches. I think he's innovative with his defense and I believe that he's probably a very nice and likable guy which is why the players don't quit on him (in the general sense, not speaking of a single instance like the Clippers game). I can see why the ASG would want to keep him because he's affordable as well. But for the love of God please surround this man with a strong offensive minded assistant and a good big man coach that can teach things like boxing out and scoring on the block. If you're not going to put good assistants around him then replace him with an upper echelon type of coach who doesn't need as much support from his assistants.

Oh and I should say that Mark Price was a good hire, we need more hires like that.

But I wonder how many head coaches really listen to their assistants. Is Woody like a dictator who won't listen or does he actually take into account what his assistants actually say? Are he and his assistants of the same mind and philosophies? I actually wonder what goes on with the coaches, because surely somebody else on that bench has to see the same problems we see.

It really pisses me off when this happens. He must think that he either has to play Bibby or that Bibby provides something that Acie cannot.

Shew .... hung on and won this one.

The answer is quite obvious. Woodson is not very smart. He relies heavily upon veterans, and when his veterans struggle, he has no backup plan. He would rather stick with a struggling veteran than give a young guy a chance.

wtf does the newspaper have to do with the Hawks? How could the Atlanta Journal Constitution fire Woody?

THE AJC RUNS THIS TOWN!!!!!!

Same approach as usual Iso Joe or Flip in the second half! Won't work against good defenses but at least against the bad ones we can celebrate our limited offensive game plan.

Yeah, I think that Mike Woodson is clearly in the lower tier of NBA coaches. He has no imagination and no kind of secondary plan. His 1st, 2nd, and 3rd option/plan seem to all involve isolating Joe Johnson or trying to get a shot for Joe Johnson. Joe is his crutch. He's like a little baby that needs to have his binky taken away from him. Maybe then he'll realize that he has other toys that he can play with instead of just Joe Johnson. Sadly, I just don't think that Woodson has the mental capacity or the desire to change his "scheme." All he knows is that when he's in doubt, he's gonna lean on Joe and Bibby.

I love Joe when his shot is on. I hate him when his shot is off. I hope he can continue to play this way from here on out as opposed to what we've seen out of him over the past several games. Same thing goes for Bibby.

I have been known to go on a rant concerning this topic, which I am very passionate about, but I 'll keep it short and sweet.

Joe has more skills than many outsiders know and is one of the most underrated on-ball and man defenders in the league. Three-ball stroke sweet as honey. But as a guy blessed with a 6'7, 240 lb frame, I feel that Joe is arguably the worst/ weakest/ least explosive finisher in the league at his size and skill set, leading to less fouls drawn, missed oppurtunities at the line, less pressure on the Defense, less motivational plays, etc, etc. There are about 15-20 players I could name around his size and smaller who finish higher, harder, and more frequently at the rack (no one quite has a frame like Joe's, with Carmelo and Pierce most comparable at 6'8, 230 and 6'7, 235, respectively). This observation over his years in Atlanta are becoming increasingly problematic to me, seeing as how he caught alley-oops, routinely challenged big men at the rack, and finished fast breaks in Phoenix until his horrific eye socket injury. Then poof, the max contract, new city, rarely seen with his hands around the rim banging bodies. I think Flip is invaluable to this squad, because he drives hard and challenges at the iron, something our starting backcourt can't/ won't do.

Does anyone else feel/ see the same? If anyone says they saw Joe dunk in traffic in a Hawks jersey, I need hardcore video evidence, and I'll eat my words, because I've maybe seen it once.

I agree with you 100%. That's what I've been saying. He needs to attack the basket more and use his physical size to his advantage. He plays pretty weak for somebody that is 240 pounds. I love him when his shot is on, but I hate him when his shot is off, because he refuses to get to the freethrow line.

I love this board.

I wouldn't trade Joe now for the same reason I wouldn't have traded Smith a month ago when every other post was a "trade Smovve" or "Josh Smith Loss us this oNe".

Don't consider trading guys when they are playing poorly.

I'd trade anyone on this roster for the right deal because the fact of the matter is, none of the guys on this roster are superstars.

That being said, this board is ridiculous in its blind loyalty to Joe. We all know what Hotlanta does, he doesn't represent the average fan. He's the voice of pessimism around here. The rest of us should be able to admit when Joe has a bad game. When Smith hits half his shots for 19 points and snags 12 rebounds, most of us will be able to find a reason to blame this on him. Some of us will ALWAYS say we lost because Law should have been playing instead of Bibby (although Bibby did blow last night and was as guilty as anyone for the final score). Many of us will blame Woody, regardless of the circumstance. But when Joe, who is primarily here as a scorer, misses 15 shots and is completely invisible in crunch time, its sacrilege to say he had a bad game.

You can criticize the guy and still be a fan of his and the team's. He's not gonna read this and say, "ah man, gsuteke doesn't think I'm flawless anymore, I'm outta here"

You're absolutely right. Some guys act as if Joe Johnson should be above criticism. I'm sorry, but even with his 13 assists, he's a big reason why the Hawks lost last night. He absolutely stunk in the 4th quarter. He was cold all game, and he was taking the shots in crunch time and setting up an ice-cold Bibby to take shots in crunch time. That's bad shooting and bad decision-making. Johnson also didn't bother to get to the freethrow line. Johnson also missed an easy layup in the 4th - which actually should have been a dunk. Some of you guys need to admit that Johnson has some big flaws in his game. He's a good player when his shot is on, but he has big holes in his game that are glaring weaknesses when his shot is off. I don't see what's so bad about being honest and pointing out flaws in Johnson's game. He's far from perfect.

Another player of Johnson's size probably wouldn't have had 13 assists on just 35 made baskets for the team.

For those of you counting, that's 35 makes, minus his own 5 makes 30...13 assists out of 30 baskets = he alone assisted 43.3% of all his team's made shots.

JJ could have played better, but he's hardly the biggest reason the Hawks lost.

JJ is a big reason why the Hawks lost. When it's crunch time, the ball is in his hands by default because of Woody. If JJ wasn't one of the biggest reasons why we lost, then who is??? Bibby can certainly be blamed as well, but JJ chose to pass him the ball in crunch time for a 3-pointer instead of giving the ball to someone else.

It was Joe's wide open missed layup around the 6:00 minute mark that just demoralized us I think. Why the heck didn't he put the shot up with some authority or some force? Instead another lazy attempt and the result was a pitiful missed layup. To me, that set the tone for the rest of the game...

That just goes back to JJ's game having way too much finesse in it. Another player of Johnson's size would have dunked that in.

JJ's flaws keep getting exposed. His game is way too finesse for him to be the go-to guy when his shot is off, and Woody is too dumb to realize it. To be honest with you, JJ shouldn't even have gotten the ball during the last few minutes of the game. The offense should have been run through someone else. Furthermore, Bibby shouldn't have been in the game either. We had an ice cold Joe Johnson setting up an ice cold Mike Bibby for a jumpshot in crunch time. Oh, by the way, the ice cold Bibby couldn't stay in front of the not-so-quick Steve Nash either, but Woody thought it was a good idea to have him in the game at crunch time. That's just not smart basketball.

Their offense is beautiful to watch and they get a great shot almost every time.

If you notice they don't just constantly iso Kobe like we do with Joe the entire time down the stretch. They bring him up top and run the P&R with him. They probably have the best spacing in the NBA. If they double Kobe off the P&R, he gives it to Gasol and if they pick Gasol up then he kicks it to a wide open 3 point shooter. It's almost the same EVERY trip down, but it's impossible to defend. Joe is good enough to make the right decisions on the P&R and Bibby is also a great P&R player. We could run it constantly with Smith and Horford. When we DO do it, it almost always works.

Fisher plays offense similar to Mike Bibby. If you think about it, we have a VERY similar roster to the Lakers, except we aren't as talented, of course, and we don't have Bynum, of course. But, we have a star guard who is a very capable passer, lots of shooters, and a shooting PG. We obviously wouldn't be as good as LA running it, but we'd get much better ball movement and our offense would be much more fluid. We'd be able to finish games a lot better. I just can't stand our 4th quarter offense when JJ dribbles the clock all the way down and jacks up a shot or makes a last second pass to someone for a jumper before the clock expires.

I don't think Woodson has the mental capacity or the desire to bring a much better offense to the Hawks.

The Woodson double-standard is ridiculous. He'll let Flip Murray turn the ball over left and right, but if Acie has one slip-up, it's off to the bench for him. That doesn't even make sense. Especially when Acie brings a much needed element to the team that Bibby doesn't. Woodson has more tolerance for veterans messing up than young players messing up. That's just backwards.

Yes I agree there is no point in you trying to talk logically if you cannot understand a simple thing like drawing more contact leads to more injuries.

Yep, you're absolutely right. It was SOOOOO DANGEROUS for Bibby to draw a foul the other night by getting the defender to jump on his pump-fake. I mean, Bibby's gonna be out for 3 weeks because of that foolish stunt. Oh, and Josh Smith's injury was a DIRECT RESULT of him trying to draw a foul too. Yep, any injury that you sustain in basketball is directly tied to trying to get to the foul line. How could I be so foolish as not to have come to this conclusion before??? Yes, Dolfan, you are a genius. :worshippy:

See, what you fail to realize is that not every injury in basketball is tied to trying to draw fouls. You guys just randomly threw some names out there, but you didn't even take to the time to examine HOW they got injured. That's just asinine. :slap1:

Yes, I agree some of you should put more thought into it. Bronnt it didn't take you much thought to come up with those names just as didn't take much thought for me to come up with T-Mac as a quick example. What does take a lot of thought is saying "nah uh" when someone cites a real example rather than providing a counter argument.

If you think that T-Mac's back problems has any kind of relation to JJ drawing a foul when he gets a defender in the air, or that Carmelo getting slapped on the hand is proof that JJ shouldn't be trying to get to the foul line more, then there is no point in even trying to talk logically to you........