Antmillennium

like a timid schoolgirl....what is his problem....he isn't aggressive, doesn't drive to dish or layup, shows no emotion on his face unless you consider lackadaisical an emotion, and his head isnt in the game...

if i had his natural abilities, i'd be totally trying to take over the game...ESPECIALLY when we are down by so many points and there is no risk there...just go all out....has Woody totally crushed this man?

and in college although he wasnt a 80% jumpshooter, he could still hit shots...now it's like he's royal ivey or something and it's all in his head...

whatever happened to Acie Law.

Woody seems to have a knack for crushing young players' confidence.

I've been convinced for 4 years. Welcome to the show.

Don't get me wrong, I never really cared for him. However, after what the Hawks did in the playoffs last year, I only though it was proper to give him another season or two to see what he could do. However, based upon how poorly the Hawks play on the road, and looking at how we have a poor offensive system AND a poor defensive scheme, Woodson doesn't even deserve another year. He's not good at any phase of the game. I know he doesn't have the type of team that can actually win a championship, but he's also not the type of coach that can win a championship. He's not the type of coach that can maximize a team's potential. If anyting, he minimizes the team's potential with his dumb "strategies."

Beyond his substitution habits, Woody also shows his stupidity by continually switching everything on defense. Avery Johnson brought out the folly of this "strategy" during halftime.

Only if you let it be. There are a couple of players on this team that i really like. That's about it. The organization is garbage. I'm not crowing about this, but I said 4 years ago, and from the minute I got on this site, that this would happen in just this way. Anyone who's ever played for a coach... or really listened to Hubie Brown, would know that this is what happens with a "coach" like Mike Woodson.

Don't let the losses bother you... they don't bother him.

All I know is that Mike Woodson is supposed to be a defensive coach, but his defensive scheme sucks. It's the same thing every game. During halftime, Avery Johnson said that switching everything is a very dangerous scheme, yet, we continue to do it and get burned by it routinely. I'm CONVINCED that Woody is not the man for this team.

No constant embarrassment on national TV, and a good chance Woody gets fired.

I just can't take watching this...

This is pure torture.

It was unintentional. LeBron even went over to Josh to make sure he was OK.

The thing that drives me absolutely nuts about Flip is that he routinely passes up open shots for much more difficult shots. Someone will throw him a good pass and he'll be wide open. Then, for some unexplained reason, he'll pass up the open shot and then go to where the defenders are and throw up some difficult shot that has little chance of going in. I just don't get it.

Josh Smith and Mike Bibby are the only two players that decided to show up for the Hawks tonight. Al Horford is going to have to find a way to make a difference somehow, and once again, Joe Johnson pulls a disappearing act. We're going to have to get a lot more out of those two if we expect to make this a competitive series.

Hmm...A 6'10" player to allow others to rebound.

:lol6:

Jon Barry is really hating.

The whole team.

right about 1:40, when he hits the stanky leg.....WOW

I died laughing!

That was hilarious.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! apparently 6-8 from deep is a horrible response!

Joe Johnson played well today. He wasn't passive and he refused to let himself be taken out of the game today. I was proud of his effort. Hopefully, this is a learning experience for him. Notice how he forced his way into the game - even if it meant taking a 3-point shot from WAY downtown? If he's our All Star, that's what he's SUPPOSED to do. There is nothing wrong with our star forcing the issue. I'll have no problem with Joe Johnson whatsoever if he continues to play that way. He showed a lot of heart today. We need him to continue to play that way. I won't be mad at Joe if he attempts to make his presence felt in a game, and he just fails while being aggressive. However, I feel as if he could have tried a lot harder to make his presence felt in the other games instead of letting Miami take him out of the game. However, I give credit where credit is due. I LOVE Joe Johnson when he decides to play like that. Hopefully, that will be how Joe approaches the games from here on out. I don't expect us to beat Cleveland, but I at least expect Joe Johnson to go down swinging.

I was thinking more along the lines of DeAngelo Hall. Hall could be a shut-down CB, but he has got some sort of mental block that stops him from being one. He does things that he has no business doing - like playing 10-yards off of a WR on 3rd and 3 and things like that. Smart, shut-down CBs don't do that.

You obviously haven't watched many games then. We have picked and rolled with ALOT of success this year especially with Josh. I just wished we did it more.

I don't know. I've been watching the games and hoping that they would pick and roll. I often wonder why Josh Smith sets the screen and then just sets up behind the 3-point line. I recall thinking many times that if they'd just tell Josh to roll after he sets the pick that he'd get a lot of easy alley-oop bucks like Tyson Chandler does. It could just be me, but I don't recall there being many pick and rolls at all.

What we need to change for game 7 if we are to win.

1. This was obviuos but play with more heart. We had no energy last night and Woody even pointed this out after the 1st quarter. Maybe everyone got in and got plenty of rest today.

2. Post Joe Johnson up!! Let Joe work off the block instead of giving it to him at the top of the key. If and when Joe gets doubled....ROTATE the ball!(and not to Josh either. In fact...put Josh on the other block. I would rather see Zsa Zsa shoot a 3 then Josh at this stage.)

3. Where was the pick and roll last night??? It is our best half court play and we usually get dunks out of it when we run it with Josh. At least that would get him away from the perimeter.

If we can successfully do those 3 things, we win game 7 easy and then go on to get our butts handed to us by the Cavs. If not...we go home one series early. :sad:

Pick and roll??? When have we ever picked and rolled? I see a lot of picks, but not much else after the pick.

Umm, Im confused. You came closest to addressing that with this one:

1). Yes, we do have enough information about positions of other teams (draft positions, needs, current relationships with players etc.), you just dont want to put in the work. For example, you can look at Golden State's current situation (a very bad one), and come up with something centered around players like Jamal Crawford, Monta Ellis and Anthony Randolph. Earlier, I talked about a Bosh for Smoove/Acie trade, and that was based on the reality of Bosh's impending unrestricted free agency and the fact that Toronto is poised to suck for the indefinite future (making it unlikely Bosh will stay there).

2) I realize you're "blowing off a little steam" and that your trade proposal wont actually have a "real-world" effect.

What I'm getting at is that it's a lot easier to say "we need to trade so and so for a better player" than to actually do it. Your argument is pointless if you can't come up with a JJ trade scenario that sets us up better for the future. Im not attacking you man, i'm just saying what everyone else is thinking (and really, no one should start a "Player needs to get traded" thread without actually proposing a trade that makes us better).

I mean, it's as simple as saying:

JJ and Smoove

for

Ellis, Crawford and Anthony Randolph

(with salaries thrown in to match and after waiting for BYC to expire).

Like I said eariler, I wouldn't trade Joe Johnson for just anybody, and I know it's a lot tougher to actually trade a player than to say it, because of having to match up salaries and etc... Furthermore, you're right. Why the heck should I put in the work to actually go find out all of this information to come up with a realistic trade scenario as if I'm getting paid to do so or something? I've got better things to do with my time. You don't see me saying "We should trade Joe and sign LeBron!!!!!" or some silly thing like that. All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, Joe has demonstrated that he is not a reliable #1 option, he is a complimentary piece, and I would like Sund to look into the possibility of trading him. You can sit here and post trade scenarios all day, but it's all pretty pointless at the end of the day, because nobody on this message board is making any kind of executive decisions about the Hawks. Also, as soon as you do post a trade scenario, then you'll be in more arguments about what you proposed, because some people will think your proposal is completely stupid. For instance, you and I could be arguing about your Smoove/Acie for Bosh trade scenario. I wouldn't like that trade at all. However, I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with you about the merits of a fictitious trade that most likely will never happen. Likewise, I'm not about to put in the effort or the time that it would require for me to present a "realistic" fictitious trade. It's not worth my time, in my opinion, and it's not something that I enjoy doing. It's just like the NFL Draft. I'll watch it to see who the Falcons take, and I might have a few opinions on who I'd like to see them select. However, I'm not about to build a draft board and construct multiple mock drafts, as I see that as a waste of my time. If that's your sort of thing, then more power to you. As for me, I feel like it's a complete waste of time and energy.

lol, that was the same point that I tried to make. But apparently that's not the "smart" thing to do. Saying that to that guy is like talking to a brick wall. You saw that AHF came up with a list, and all he got was laughed at. I appreciate reading all of the posts that at least have ideas to make us better, but there's been nothing from the threadstarter other than insults, LOLs, and a condescending attitude towards anybody who disagrees.

Stop debating this guy. You give facts, he gives jokes (of posts).

Actually, that just proves that you don't really comprehend or pay attention to what you read. Also, you were the one that started out with the condescending tone. Furthermore, you failed to do what I asked you to do. If you want me to come up with a trade scenario, then you need to first come up with ALL of the requested info. I've already said that if there is a way to trade Johnson to make us better, I would like to do that, but at the same time, I wouldn't trade Johnson for just anything. However, if you're going to make such a silly request of me at this time, then I must ask you to first provide me with all of the necessary information that I requested from you. However, there is no point in even having a discussion with you about Joe Johnson because you feel as if he is one of the top players in the league and that he is a good #1 option. Please explain to me how many true #1 options have performances like Joe Johnson in the playoffs??? The only way I can see us improving while keeping Joe Johnson is to get a true #1 option. If you can explain to me how that's going to be possible, especially with Joe Johnson probably wanting a max contract shortly, then by all means, please do so. However, I will admit this: Getting Woodson out of here and bringing in a coach that actually understands defense AND offense would probably help Joe and everybody else on the team.

If you're going to make a post about trading our best player, it's probably a good idea to come up with a trade that actually makes us better (i.e. to prove your point).

You don't trade just to trade.

I believe I said that much already. It seems as if you didn't read all of the posts where that stuff was already addressed. Go back and read the posts, and maybe it will make sense to you then.

Here is the draft order and list of the top 62 players according to nbadraft.net. I am interested in seeing the trade proposals.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2009mock_draft

I think the NBA determines draft order based on regular season record not post-season success. See last year's draft where the Lakers (NBA Finals) picked before Detroit (EC Finals) and the Spurs (WC Finals) picked before the Hornets (WC Semi-finals) for example. The same thing happened when the Knicks made it to the finals as an 8th seed. They got their pick in the draft based on regular season record.

LOL!!! Now, why do you wanna start in with me???

Why do we run offensive sets consistently where Smith is floating outside the 3pt line?

That's the million-dollar question.

Once again, you asked about the draft. OBVIOUSLY that meant that you planning to include picks. Ever heard of context clues?

But whatever. I don't even know why I'm entertaining this. Joe's not gonna be traded. It's not like you're the GM or anything, thank goodness. Enjoy trying to trade him on whatever video game you have, though!

First of all, have you ever heard of packaging players and picks? You could trade a player for a pick and then turn around and package that pick with another player to get what you want. The point is, it's asinine for you to ask me to come up with a trade proposal right now, because we don't have enough information about the draft positions of teams and the wants and desires of other teams. You want me to come up with a trade proposal? Fine. You come up with a draft order, a list of the top-45 players in the draft, a list of other teams' needs and wants, and a list of players that might want a change of scenery along with their contract figures.

Second, you're right. I'm not the GM. That's why it makes it even more asinine of you to ask me for a trade proposal. All I am is a fan on the internet expressing his opinions and blowing off a little steam - whether you like it or not. Nothing that anybody posts on this message board is going to have any effect on the team. Therefore, why are you getting all bent out of shape because I'd like to see Joe Johnson traded for something better? Now, I'm not stupid. I'm not saying that they should trade him for a lesser player, and I know that they can't trade Joe for somebody like Kobe, Chris Paul, or LeBron James. All I'm saying is that if there is a way to get better by trading Joe Johnson, I'd love to see it happen.

Even so, why does that mean he has to be traded?

I understand what you're saying, but I think Joe is going to want to be paid like a number 1 option. I can't justify that kind of money for a guy who has no heart and doesn't even show up in the playoffs.

I can't even do that until the season is over, considering the draft positions.

And now you're basically telling me that we should trade Joe for draft picks. Wow. Such a great idea. 5-star post. Who cares about setting the team back a couple of years by trading one of our best players for some draft picks? Just get Joe out of here! The man is worthless. He can't even handle a triple team and being fouled constantly with no whistle. Just get rid of the man. He doesn't flop, cry, or roll on the floor in fake pain so let's get him out of here now! Plus he doesn't put up 30 pts a game during the regular season or playoffs so now he's REALLY worthless. Yes, let's get him out of town for some unproven talent. Excellent idea.

Yep, that's exactly what I said. I said, "Let's trade Joe for draft picks." Yep, it's clearly in my earlier post. Nice reading/comprehension skills.

After staunchly defending Smoove consistently, I am finally to the point where I might consider shopping him. I always said he has all the upside in the world and passion too, but that may not be enough if he doesn't have enough upstairs.

I guess you could say the same for JJ (for you guys who are criticizing him) - don't trade him until we replace the coach. Personally, I think he is a 'safe' guy to have on a max contract. While he will never be the Dwyane Wade/Kobe/LeBron type star, I think in the proper offensive system (which we don't have), he will always be an All-Star or fringe All-Star performer.

Basically the point is, I think we really need to abstain from making any substantial roster moves before we see at what level our players under a different regime. At this point, we need to lock down Marvin to a new contract in a similar manner that we did Smoove last offseason. His recent injuries coupled with the economy will help us get a bargain potentially.

You have to expect us to give Flip at least two years. I hope we don't go more than that but three wouldn't shock me unfortunately. Hopefully that is more economy shopping thats going to take place. We CANNOT overpay Flip.

IMO, we also need to re-sign Bibby as cheaply as possible and draft a PG in this stout PG draft class.

We need to add another big man (David Andersen? Yeah, I'm bringing him up). I think Zaza will be a tough decision especially with his playoff performances thus far and his likability. While a superior offensive rebounder, he lacks defensive skills at times and is an inconsistent offensive player at best. The fact that he is a good free throw shooter makes it even tougher to evaluate him!

Solo? Either he or Zaza is gonna have to go. If we are gonna actually go out and get a dependable post presence, we can't afford to give both of those guys new contracts.

In my dream best case scenario, we would do all the above mentioned, BUT instead of re-signing Flip, sign Ben Gordon to come off our bench. If we did all that AND replaced Woody, you could talk about us competing with Cleveland next season maybe.

I didn't intend to go that deep, but that is basically my offseason 2009 Manifesto =).

Thoughts?

You make a good point. I personally think that Woody is a terrible coach. The fact that our offense is criticized on national TV is an indictment on Woodson. You should be ashamed to be an NBA coach and have no offensive system in place whatsoever. What's wrong with playing defense AND offense? Furthermore, what kind of coach can't control Josh Smith and tell him to stop camping out near the 3-point line? Why don't we have an pick and rolls with Josh? Why do we exclusively do pick and pop? (if you can even call it that) All of these things lead me to believe that Woodson has nothing to do with this team's improvement, and that it's just a natural progression of the young players.