Brokentree

Joe/Al

Josh

Joe would be top but I put Al right up there with him when you consider cost to benefit ratio.

Jamal is great at what he does but he is one dimensional. He's a scorer that brings absolutely nothing to a game if his shot isn't falling.

It's not so much how well he plays at each position as much as it how well we think he should be able to play at each position. I think right now he should be better at PF. I think he has more upside at SF. He needs to learn now to fake some of those jumpers and drive to the hoop. At the very least if the fake doesn't get his defender to bite then they might burst out laughing and he can go by them.

I think you are confusing the stat thecampster posted with +/-. All your comments apply to +/-. The stat thecampster was talking about was the PER of the playing Josh is guarding on the floor and the PER of the player Lee is guarding on the floor. That is a player specific stat and the only explanations are (a) one guy is playing better defense or (b) one guy is facing much tougher competition. Since NBA players all play a pretty comparable spread of opposing talent, Josh's vastly superior defense seems like the credible explanation for why the guys he is guarding put up much lower numbers than the guys Lee is guarding.

No I'm not talking about +/-. Its the PER for Josh at whatever position he is playing vs the PER for whoever is playing the same position on the other team. It doesn't look at who is guarding who for each play. Good team defense and good team offense is going to affect these stats. I'm not saying that David Lee is anything close to Josh defensively, but how good the team you are on certainly will make these production stats look better or worse.

Source: http://www.82games.c...11/1011ATL2.HTM

Josh is a part of 9 of the top 11 floor unit his team puts out. So is David Lee. So we need to compare deeper.

Going further. David Lee's production while he's on the floor. Own 17.7....Opponent 18.9 (-1.2). Josh's production . Own 20.2...Opponent 14.7 (+5.5).

You can score all you want...if you can't stop the other guy you lose.

Using this logic Bibby is a better defender than Curry. Production isn't a player stat. It's determined partly by the rest of your team and your opponents. Heck Golden State has played 23 games against .500 or better teams comparted to 17 for the Hawks. A better team is going to have better numbers so its really hard to compare players. The only real way to do it would be to put them on the same team and see how they do in place of each other.

I think Lee has the maturity and higher basketball IQ while Josh has more athleticism. Lee has shown more growth over the first few years of his career while Josh is basically putting up the same numbers he put up 4 years ago. Lee is averaging 17.5 points on 55% shooting with 9.2 rebounds and 3.5 assists in January. It's his first year with his team and he missed most of November. He also spends quite a bit of time at Center.

I'd rather have Josh on the Hawks right now, but I have to admit I'd be more hyped about what Lee might do NEXT year. I've basically given up on Josh playing any better than he is.

[

Woman: Can I see your grill?

Josh: And I was like.. whoa Marvin, calm down.

Powell: You ever see that movie "Little Miss Broadway"?

Jamal: Would you like to dance?

Woman: I would love to... but I have this horrible pain in my arm...

Jamal: Oh no... run ITS THE CLAW!

Woman: NOTHING CAN STOP THE CLAWWWW!

Three guys in the background

Ok, look natural... look natural... ok NOW grab his watch.

Liked the way Teague played. LD will reward him with 3 straight DNP-CD's like always.

Teague played well when he was in the game early with Bibby in foul trouble. When he got a chance to play with Joe, Jamal, and Horford.

Teague played badly when he was in the game late. When he got the chance to play with Evans, Pachulia, and Powell.

Too bad for Teague what most people will remember about this game was the ending.

I wonder how Teague's development is affected by the Hawks bench and Drew's substitution patterns. If he's on the court with the rest of the bench his game is going to be drastically different than if he is playing with 3 or 4 starters. I'd really like to see Teague starting. I feel like the 4 other starters can compensate for whatever he is lacking. Bibby coming off the bench would make me feel better about them too. Someone that can take a shot other than Jamal.

Just wanted to say that Zaza sucks. that is all.

Every time Zaza fumbles away a pass to him he looks at his hands. I think I saw him do that at least 2-3 times tonight. It's actually kind of comical. Yes Zaza your hands do indeed suck.

Teague

Crawford

Evans

Powell

Pachulia

Thats our line up against Dirk and company.

So our 1 point lead is gone.

Why does this ever happen?

It probably won't happen but I think its time.

Bibby

Jamal

Joe

Josh

Collins

Teague plays major minutes off the bench backing up the pg and sg spots. Zaza plays bigger than usual minutes backing up the 4 and 5. Mo spends some time at the 3.

Diesel suggested in another thread that maybe we don't need a starter and I agree with that thought. Our bench, with the exception of Jamal, is horrible. If any two bench players not named Jamal are on the floor at the same time I cringe because I know the Hawks are going fall apart until the starters get back in the game. Even when its bench against bench we generally lose momentum. Evans seems to be playing better lately but unless someone is injured he won't see much playing time since he'd likely steal minutes from Crawford.

What this team is lacking more than a PG or a Center is a quality back up that can spend time at the 4 and 5. Diesel mentioned Reggie Evans. I'll mention Carl Landry. Someone that can come into the game and not make me wince. The Celtics have Glenn Davis.. the Lakers have Odom. We need a guy off the bench of that type of caliber. A type of guy that can fill in when a starter is injured and the team hardly misses a beat.

Of course this doesn't really answer your question so I'll say Center. If the acquisition doesn't involve Marvin then it would move him to a bench role where he could fill in at the 2, 3, and 4. I don't think Marvin would get us much in trade anyways.

Dwight Howard scored 18 points on 5 fg attempts in the Magic's game against Philly the other day . He shot 4/5 for 8 points and then hit 10/22 free throws. If he had hit all of his shots he would have had 32 pts. Makes me wonder what the record is for most points scored per fg attempt.

Only 1 current Hawks player has every attempted 20 free throws in a game. It probably isn't who most think it would be. Here is a hint. Quack.

The Hawks have been a fairly good free throw shooting team going by %. Its a shame they don't make more of an effort to draw fouls and get to the line more often. Fouls not only lead to free points but can also disrupt the opposing team by forcing them to make substitutions.

Actually, I have suffered back injuries.. Much more impactful than what Marvin is dealing with. Based on my experience, an athlete in tip top shape should have been able to recover from that flat fall a lot faster than three weeks. In fact, a lot of you are basing Marvin's time out to your personal experiences...

Oo oo where is that pot and kettle picture.

#1 - Why is it that, if Hawks win a game against one of the teams that have a similar

record as the Hawks, it's considered an upset? I know that a lot of our players aren't

really known around the NBA. Another topic here relates how a second string center

in the west has more votes than Horford for the center position in all star balloting. That

has to mean that we get no respect. Still, we have a good record. How can all wins against

teams with a similar record be considered an upset?

#2 - In second games, when the Hawks play back to back, our winning % is so good. Hawks

are very hard to beat in that 2nd game. Why? How can this be? Check the records. If we

don't have the best record in the NBA in this one, we're close. There has to be a reason.

So, come on Hawksquawk buddies, help the old man out. Explain this to me.

1a. The Hawks have a tendency to lose to bad teams and not win against good teams. The Hawks schedule has been among the easiest for the first half of the season. Lost twice to NJ by 6 points in one game and then 15 the next (the fact that they lost by more in the second game really burns), got blown out by 23 pts against the Pistons, lost to the Bucks by 17. The only good teams the Hawks have beaten this year are the Magic (2-1), the Heat (1-1) and the Jazz (1-1). If you count the Knicks we're 1-0 against them too. Our record vs teams above .500 is 5-9. The fact that we've only played 14 games against winning teams so far is scary. In the remaining 39 games we play 20 more.

Plus there was that whole second round series last year after squeaking by the Bucks.

1b. Three part answer to your thoughts on Horford. First, he is really good. We know he is good. But when we watch espn we don't see a whole lot of Al Horford. We have Joe and Josh and Jamal taking up most of our alloted screen time. We don't get alot of national games on tv either. Second is demographics. The short explaination is.. Texas. The longer version is that everyone in Texas and the surrounding area can vote for 2 centers that play in Texas. Yao Ming, the top vote getter, and Haywood. San Antonio doesn't have a center on the ballot. 300,000 or so voters in Texas didn't feel right voting for someone that is out for the season so they voted for their (as they see it) only other option in Haywood. Third is the fact that Horford is competing for votes with Dwight Howard who is not only the best center in all of basketball, but is also from Georgia. You only get 1 vote at center.

2. The Hawks are 10-3 in the second game of back to backs. The sample size here is small so its hard to come to any conclusions but of those 10 wins 7 were against sub .500 teams. It kind of goes back to the Hawks strength of schedule. Another interesting thing is that in 4 of those 10 wins the Hawks had lost the first game of the back to back. Perhaps the memory of losing the night before added some motivation during the second games. In 13 back to backs the Hawks won both games 6 times (momentum?). Lost both games 2 times. Won the first game and lost the second 1 time. Lost the first and won the second 4 times.

Horford should make it in. Dwight Howard, Al Horford, maybe Andrew Bogut.

Josh has the stats to make it in but has the most competition. I don't think he makes it. Lebron James, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chris Bosh, Paul Pierce and either Carlos Boozer or Wilson Chandler make it in. Only reason Boozer is a maybe is because he's played so many fewer games.

Joe I feel pretty confident will make it in. He was out with an injury and came back early and is now playing at an elite level. Even considering his below normal stats for November and December his stats for the year with exception to his 3pt% is just about back to being average Joe. Other guards that might usually be his main competition like Iggy and Arenas are having off years. Dwyane Wade, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Joe Johnson, maybe Raymond Felton. If they have 3 centers then Felton is out. If they have 2 then he is in.

Crawford has no chance. He's fun to watch. I'd rather watch him than Dwyane Wade personally, but he just doesn't have the stats or star power to make it.

If any of the big three don't play then there isn't much of a statement the Hawks can make by beating the Heat. We can beat you when you're hurt isn't exactly motivational material.

He hasn't played alot yet. He's a young guy from France playing basketball in alot of strange places. He doesn't speak very good english. He's playing on a team where he doesn't know his teammates, doesn't know the coaches, and doesn't know the system. Lets give him a bit more of a chance before we cry havoc about "wasting" a deep second round pick. Like 95% of those become NBA players anyways. The guy is a project. He's low risk high reward potential.

Other than his horrible shooting right now I'm actually somewhat happy with what I see in the stat sheets. Seems like he rebounds fairly well and he makes it to the free throw line. The fouls seem to be an issue but that might just be learning what is accepted and what isn't. The turnovers don't concern me at all this early. Lets see how he does in the next 10 games or so and see if he starts to catch on and hold off on too many judgements until at least the next summer league.

I was kind of baffled that Collins didn't get any minutes against Hibbert. Really poor team shooting night but the Pacers helped by shooting even worse and not getting the threes to fall like the Hawks did.

Smith, Horford, Joe all get A's. Joe was hot early and late. Smith took his outside shots but he was around the basket fairly often as well. Horford played around the basket well also. Nice to see the assists from these three.

Jamal and Bibby get B's. Poor shooting night overall for Jamal but he made them work hard trying to stop his drives and his 3 pt shot fell at a good %. Seemed like he was fouled more than was actually called. The guy is fun to watch. Bibby shot the 3 well again though he didn't really bring anything else to this game.

Mo, Zaza, and Wilkins get C's. Mo did not lose the game for the Hawks. He played solid minutes without really helping or hurting the team very much. Zaza was good on the boards but was typical Zaza when it comes to offense. Wilkins played some good D but the man needs to do something to help out offensively before I think he deserves more than 10 minutes a game.

Powell gets a D. The man tries but he disrupts the offense so much sometimes its painful to watch.

Teague and Crawford get incomplete grades due to lack of quality playing time. Neither did anything impressive in the few minutes they were in.

Larry Drew gets a B. The team won the game but I'm not convinced he used his bench as well as he could have.

Huh? You are going to have to explain that one to me. smith and Horford are both playing 34 minutes per game. Having Horford spend a little less time guarding opposing centers might help him but i fail to see how that would have much effect on rebounding, especially considering how bad Collins is on the boards.

For perspective the Hawks have played 38 games and Collins has 45 defensive rebounds total. That is 1.2 per game.

2010 minutes vs 2011 minutes with defensive rebounds per game for our top 4 defensive rebounders

Al Horford 35.1 - 7.0drb to 34.2 - 7.1drb

Josh Smith 35.4 - 6.0drb to 34.1 - 6.9drb

Marvin Williams 30.5 - 3.8drb to 30.0 - 3.8drb

J Johnson 38.0 - 3.7drb to 36.0 - 3.4drb

Total difference in minutes per game 2010 vs 2011 is 4.7 less minutes per game for 2011

Total difference in defensive rebounds per game 2010 vs 2011 is .7 rebounds more per game for 2011.

So our best defensive rebounders are playing less but rebounding more. That is called being more effective. Of these 4 players two have missed a significant number of games so you'd actually expect the minutes per game of the other two to have gone up but that is not the case.

Season to date. Hawks 2-0

Should be an interesting game with some of the young players on the Pacers. Hibbert, Hansbrough, and Collison have loads of potential and all play positions where the Hawks are either weak or lack depth. Collison proved last year that he can put up Chris Paul numbers when he is on. Hibbert had a monster October and November before cooling off in December. He is very capable of a double double and 3+ blocks. Hansbrough just had a monster game against San Antonio. If you can play well against them you can play well against anyone. In the previous two games vs the Hawks Hansbrough only played 3 minutes. He could be an x factor for the Pacers.

I assume we go with the big line up and play Horford on Hansbrough and Smith on Granger. Dunleavy and Granger both like to take the 3 so lets hope we contest those shots and not let them get hot.

I would love to see Teague get some extended playing time in this game and see what kind of motivation he shows. He was born in Indiana and he would be playing against a pg in Collison who is having more success in the NBA after being drafted lower than Teague in the draft. Last game against the Pacers I felt he played well but it was nothing eye opening like I'm hoping to see tonight.

You are looking at per 48 stats on a player who plays 9 minutes per game. He is Royal Ivey. Ultimately you have to be on the floor to make an impact. Collins has played fewer minutes than any big on the roster other than Etan.

How can Collins make an impact on the game if he isn't actually in the game?

And you are getting sidetracked talking about defense overall vs defensive rebounding.

Even 9 minutes a game is 9 minutes of rest for someone else. It might not be a case of Collins physically doing anything other then "holding down the fort" while our better players stay more rested and therefore more effective. The less players we have at a certain position the more valueable the minutes they can provide are.

If he can average 30 ppg is his sleep he better start nodding off soon. So far he's only averaging 15.8.