Brokentree

You seem rather stuck on the idea that Jamal as the 6th man is somehow proof that he is considered to be less important than the 5 starters. Jamal plays the 4th most minutes off all the Hawks players. His main qualities are that he is clutch, can generate his own scoring chances, and is an interchangeable part that can sub in at both the sg and pg positions. Three qualities that are all best utilized by a 6th man. He would be worth big money if he could defend better and he keeps his shot selection improved like this last year.

The fact is we can not afford to pay him what you seem to think he is worth (though you probably won't tell anyone what you think he should be paid until the new CBA is done, get back to us in a year and a half).

Lets continue with the "put yourself in his shoes" game

I have been playing on bad teams ever since I joined the NBA and finally land on a winner. Not only did the team play well but I played well in a new role that I've never tried before and got praised.. alot... for my character. Heck, I even won an award. I should thank someone for the opportunity.

I had my first playoff experience in the NBA ever. It was fun and I'd like to do it more often. I think the Hawks will be able to play in the playoffs alot and I'd like to resign. If I ask for too much we might lost some of our other players though which could make us worse.

I'm going into the last year of my contract and I'm making 10m. I'm going to be 31 when next season ends and this will probably be my last chance for a contract in the 3-4 year range. A new CBA is coming and there is a good chance of a lockout next year. I want an extension now but it will never happen unless I'm willing to sacrifice some cash for security.

I think it's too early to start talking about money. The new CBA has not been drafted. We don't know what it will include so there's no need to try and make decisions based on money.

2nd. We don't know if ASG will find a new partner with big pockets. They are looking.

3rd. To call Jamal a 6th man is really disrespectful. On any other team but Woody's, he's a starter. On Woody's team, we has to justify Marvin being paid starter money.

Right now, Jamal is not that far away from being as good as Joe. It's disrespectful to hear people say " he's just a 6th man" or "what will we do about J Craw 2" etc. JCraw is probably our second best player. I want to see how LD utilizes him.

Don't use your values to decide whether other people are disrespecting something. Absolutely no disrespect is given on Jamal being the 6th man. I personally don't think its anything he should feel disrespected about. I feel its a good role for him and am proud that he was voted the best at it this last season. You can even say that I respect him more for fulfilling that role without some massive athletes ego thinking its disrespectful to him. I'll respect him even more if he signs a new contract with a 30% paycut just so that he can remain with the Hawks. He plays as many minutes or more then the "starters" so its really a mute point anyways.

The team always comes first. I like Jamal, but I like the Hawks more. The idea that we can't afford to pay our 6th man ,aka Jamal, more then 20m over 3 years is based on the fact that we have 50m in payroll next year not including Horford and not including Jamal (and not including 5 other yet to be named players). We just can not afford to pay any more for a player that is not also a defensive threat.

This board is slow during this time of year for obvious reasons. Are we going to compound that by not posting anything with a number in it until the new CBA is done? Shouldn't it be ok to value a persons worth to a team based on what we currently know? I think people are smart enough to know that a new CBA can potentially change everything we are currently talking about.

While I am interested in seeing how Drew uses Jamal this season I'm more interested in how he uses the whole team. I'm especially curious to see Marvin. This year is his last chance in my eyes. Woodson is gone. He has now officially run out of excuses. If he really wants to "help the team" he should start by playing some offense. I also want to see how Teague responds to the offense. I think Teague and Marvin are our biggest x factors. We can kind of imagine what we'll get out of our other players regardless of the offensive system but these two are a huge question mark and I think will have a big influence on the teams season.

Larry Drew was perhaps one of the worst coaching changes this year. Compare him to the others on the list and tell me you wouldn't rather have a Byron Scott, Tom Thibodeau, Avery Johnson, or Doug Collins. The only real debate would be over Drew and Monty Williams. I don't think anyone would have been too thrilled with Vinny Del Negro.

This is also a forcast. Which coach will benefit his team the most? How can Drew benefit the Hawks? Well a 2nd round win would be great. Yeah, not the easiest thing to do. How can the other coaches benefit their teams? Well some of them just want more wins. Avery Johnson needs to pull at least 13 wins out of his magic hat. Doug Collins needs to aim at 28 or more. Tom Thibodeau needs to beat .500 ball and try to win a 1st round series. Poor Byron Scott needs to try and prove that Lebron isn't all that.

I have been reading that some opin trading Jamal for divers reasons is an answer

Can be read as "I have been reading that is some people's opinions we should trade Jamal for a variety of different reasons." The word opin is either short for opinion or opine. Divers is the basically the same as diverse. I had a hard time reading it as well but with minimal effort I think I understood it fine.

As for Jamal. I like the guy on the court and the guy always seems to impress in his interviews. I thought the same thing about Bibby before last year. There just isn't enough money to go around to be able to pay a 6th man that much money. If we could get him to sign on for 3 years 20 million then I'd be ok with it. Anything more in years or money I think is too much. He doesn't have good defense to fall back on as he ages so when he does start to fade offensively its going to hurt his worth that much more. That being said. I rank Horford's contract to be way more of a concern then Jamal's. I believe Horford can only get better where as we can only hope that Jamal doesn't degrade.

They should be ashamed of themselves for appearing in this video and it has nothing to do with image and everything to do with the fact that the video and song itself more or less blows.

You do not know that, quit assuming when you don't know anything about the case. This isn't Atlanta Hawk talk, this is a man's life we're talking about.

This whole thread is throwing around assumptions at his ex-wife. It's not an assumption that he was in financial trouble. It is also not an assumption that he was involved with shady people. The assumption is that they are connected and that his association with these shady people was at least at one point voluntary. I find that assumption no worse then the assumption that his ex-wife has some guilt in these events. For all we know he may have still loved her. Perhaps it would be best if no one commented at all about this very sad event until the facts are given light.

The first 3 years of JJ's contract is fairly reasonable. The 4th year starts to get unreasonable. The 5th year is going to suck. In the 6th year it becomes one of those super expiring contracts that we'll all be excited about wondering what we can get for it.

I can barely even begin to explain the monumental gaps in logic there. Suffice it to say that in the information age, articles are not like cheese. For most of the articles that get posted, the choice is not between reading an article on Blog X and reading the article on NewspaperY.com. It's between reading it on Blog X and not reading it at all, because more and more consumers are not willing to pay for content. I agree that copying and pasting articles that are freely available on NewspaperY.com and are gratuitously posted in their entirety on Blog X might lose ad revenues. But if NewspaperY.com is a subscriber-only service on ESPN Insider? Not so much.

You can barely even begin to explain because you can't. The logic is there and you are just not willing to accept it. If people are not willing to pay for things then people should not get them. People seem to naturally think that things on the internet are free. It is a fundamental flaw in how people have come to think. Is it ok for a newspaper on the east coast to take an article from a newspaper on the west coast and print it based purely on the idea that its harder to get west coast newspaper on the east coast? Oh darn its harder to distribute over there so yeah you can just have it? No no.. don't be crazy. You don't need to pay us for it. Where are peoples ethics? Oooh people that read my blog will love this article, copy.. paste.. cha-ching!$ Thats quite the work ethic there.

Sure the guy might seem like some sneaky lawyer but he would not be able to do this if it wasn't based on someone doing something wrong. If people are hiring him to do what he does then those people do indeed feel that it is hurting them.

I know lots of journalists. Not one of them cares if their writing is pirated. They don't get paid per "subscriber hit." They are paid either on salary or per article, and the more people read their stuff, the more exposure they get. As long as the byline is copied along with the rest, the only ones who really lose out on a copy/paste are the corporate owners. And even they aren't losing much, because it's not like people would pay $10/month for their sites in the absence of the copy/paste versions.

I also know lots of lawyers who think like Gibson. Trust me, they don't care about protecting the rights of the little freelance journalist trying to feed his family. Not one bit.

So in your/his honor:

Journalists might not be paid per hit but the people that pay them sure are. The more hits they get the more advertisement dollars they can potentially land. If they aren't making money then in the long run alot of journalists aren't either. The company I work for makes cheese. Should I care whether people buy our cheese or someone elses? The company doesn't pay me for each unit they sell afterall.

I hate to go against the flow but I more or less agree with this. The entire reposting of an article is just plain stealing. The article is posted on a site so that people go to that site and are annoyed by that sites advertisements. Its how they make money and its how they pay bills and its how they feed their children. Now if we're talking about links to articles with maybe a quote or two that is completely different. A link is free advertisment for their site. If funnels people to that site that would otherwise never see it. It creates hits and increases their revenue. Links=GOOD. Copy+Paste=BAD.

That's a question not a statement... but having given it some thought today, I'm inclined to think so, and largely because... capologists can correct me if I'm misunderstanding something here... our trade exception that essentially allows us to obtain him at a $3.6 million reduced impact.

Also, as has been popularly observed, WAS would seem to be a highly-willing trading partner, with great incentive to get Arenas off of their books.

We, on the other hand, are a team that is looking at the next 2-3 years and saying to ourselves, we have this window of time, and if not now, when?

The two teams would seem to be a match, at least on the surface, and if they could find the right mix to exchange. (I've got a couple of possibilities in-mind, but will hold back from putting them out-there for now b/c I'm really just interested in the general question and do not mean to make this a thread about a specific trade.)

Thoughts?

To try to explain how bad Arenas' contract is let's compare it to JJ's. If we traded for Arenas he would be our highest paid player. Even if we were able to trade JJ for Arenas it would be a negative impact on our Salary Cap until his contract expires. Arenas makes more money per year up to the end of his contract in 2013 than JJ makes up to that point. Only the final two years of JJ's contract is for more money then the final year in Arenas' contract. The advantage Arenas' contract has is that it ends two years sooner.

I can't think of any trade scenario where we get Arenas and our salary cap isn't completely f'd up. Washington's young talent is not signed long term and I don't think they'd give up much. Even if we got them included in the trade how do we resign them? We can't forget that we're going to want to resign Horford as well.

The trade exception would not do much for us. It can only be used to trade for a player of equal or lower value. We can split it up but we can not combine it with anything else. We can trade a 3m TE for a 3m contract or we can trade 1.5 of the TE for a 1.5m contract and still have a 1.5 TE to use. It's the difference between this trade not working ESPN Trade Machine and this trade working ESPN Trade Machine. This trade, by the way, includes every immediately tradeable player on Washington's roster. It is next to impossible, but it is also probably the only trade I'd be OK with. Hell with the salary cap.. that's some good depth there.

The chatter has calmed down, but it's speculated that, failing a trade, the Bobcats will eventually cut Dampier.

Do you perceive him as the kind of player that ASG/Sund would consider worth lux tax money? Is he a difference maker for us? More so than Shaq would be?

Definitely not a luxury tax guy. He would be a difference maker in the regular season perhaps. Shaq, I think, would be more of a difference maker in the playoffs. Regardless of their actual contributions on the court I think Shaq adds the most value to the team in ticket and merchandise sales.

I didn't mean to come across as being exceedingly serious but be you were out on context and therefore not even close to funny. I can see where you were coming from though.

You know the one, engraved by the Statue in New York's harbor:

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

^{(Emma Lazarus - "The New Colossus")}

Just about sums up our approach to free agency, doesn't it? This is the first thing I think of when I consider the Jason Collins signing.

You are comparing the people that built this country to Jason Collins? People that risked everything and came here in hope of bettering their lives and the lives of their children... to Jason Collins? If the Hawks approach to free agency was anything like this then we'd have the hardest working most driven bench in all of the NBA.

Our goal is to continue to put an elite caliber ballclub on the floor

See the problem is they already think the Hawks are elite.

Bibby as an older vet guy seems to be entering that "feel no pressure and enjoy myself" stage of his playing career. Seems to be willing to give up some minutes to Teague and help where he can. That being said.. I think he'd be cool to hang out with. Doesn't seem to have an ego and probably isn't too stressed about his day to day life. A guy you hang with and not end up in jail with later in the night.

Or was their something else going on that i didn't know about?

There was the big exciting news about Randmo possibly going to Israel as well. News actually broke on the 18th but it takes time for the word to get out.

The biggest reason to be on the board on the 19th though was the Diesel hat and Marvin tattoo in the banner.

If there was an optimism award you'd win it with this thread JTB.

Jason Collins has perhaps the worst FG% (41%) of any 7ft player I have ever seen. It is widely considered one of his biggest flaws that he doesn't have any sort of inside game. The purpose of a Jason Collins (7ft fatty) is not to spread the defense. It is to rebound and defend and he has never been a good rebounder.

Joe Smith as a vet signing for the minimum I'd never have a problem with.

Mo Evans will probably see even less playing time this year with the addition of Jordan Crawford. He is a capable bench player but his defense while playing sf is a question mark. I think everyone would rather see JJ playing the backup minutes at sf and the Crawfords playing more backup minutes at sg. His most value is perhaps as a veteran presence for when alot of the 2nd unit is on the floor in garbage time and when we need an extra 3pt shooter on the floor.

Zaza.. I love Zaza.. but man I cringe alot when he plays. He is no Kwame Brown but the man certainly lacks grace.

Jordan Crawford showed flashes in summer league but lets not get ahead of ourselves as others on this board seem be doing. He shot 42% fg and 30% from 3pt range against teams comprised primarily of different sized Randolph Morris clones.

I agree that Woodson didn't use certain players as much as he should have and that our bench last year probably wasn't as bad as it was made out to be, but our bench is not good.

Sure there are a few that can take a jump shot.. but that is about all they can do. We don't have a lock down defender coming off the bench. We don't have a 3pt specialist (just because they can shoot 3's doesn't mean they're that good at it). We don't have anyone that can score effectively as a backup at pf or center. Zaza barely passes as a good backup for rebounding because he has a knack for getting his share of offenseive boards and thats limited primarily to the center position, we lack true pf depth. We don't have any high energy athletic bench players other then guards.

...and what San Antonio did with their spending and the way they stayed under the luxury tax.

San Antonio has paid a luxury tax of some amount in 3 of the last 5 years. Granted 2 of those 3 years was in the hundreds of thousands and not in the millions. Last year they paid 8.8 million.

I have a feeling the ASG is more concerned with receiving payments like the 3.7 million they got last year from other teams luxury tax payments. If they pay the tax they are not eligible to receive a tax share.

I can picture it now. An israli and a palestinian are both reading newspapers in a quiet shop somewhere when they both let the words "Randoph Morris? Noooo!" escape from there lips. They both look up and they realize, hey, we're a lot alike. Thousands of years of hate ended. Randolph Morris... where peace happens.

Lets go into the world of make believe and create a Hawks team that would be a real "dream" team. Think of a character, living or dead, real or not. Pick 5 starters and give them a position they'd play. Explain your choices and reference where they came from. Best of all? No salary cap or luxury tax!!

C- Optimus Prime (Transformers cartoons/movie) - Good length, durable, paint scheme kinda similar to hawks unis, ages well.

PF- Superman (Comic book/movies/television) - Sure he can fly and he's really... really strong, but the real reason? Picture the stares he would get from Dwight Howard.

SF- Dominique Wilkins (Real nba player, retired) - Skills well known by people on this board, deserves to win a championship.

SG- Megan Fox (Actress) - Its my fantasy, leave me alone.

PG- Eli (The Book of Eli, movie) - Great court vision, good reflexes. ( I just watched the movie the other day and at the end I thought to myself "man he'd make a good pg" which is where the idea for this thread came from)

That is my dream team. What's yours?

I went Carmelo assuming that Shaq would then sign cheaper.

3 teams FA Anthony Tolliver looking at: Warriors, Jazz, Hawks. Remains interested in Warriors even though qualifying offer wasn't picked up.

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Servicable backup big. How much would he expect to get paid with the little experience he has? Is he worth the MLE? Would Golden State sign and trade for the TPE?

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EDIT: It needs to be said that this relatively small return for Childress is related to the Hawks' overpaying of Joe. It left them with little leverage.

That is true. They also had 3 days they could have sat on the offer before making a decision. They could have forced Childress to either sign an offer sheet or go back to Greece before working out the S/T details. Seems to me if he had already signed it the Hawks might have had more leverage.

Sigh its so depressing.

At least we're not Cleveland.