ATLien_

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

Okay....you said your peace....you're wrong...but I'm glad you got a chance to say it.  Young is a slightly better shooter with superior PG and court vision.  

Basic flaw in your comparison is that

Lou Williams is an undersized shooting guard who occasionally plays the point.

vs

Trae Young is a normal sized point guard who has shooting guard like skills.

Mike Bibby is probably the better ceiling comp for Trae to me than Nash or Lou Williams. Average NBA athlete offensively but he loses very little speed with the ball compared to without it. Changes speeds well and is crafty with that dribble. Below average speed and lateral quickness defensively with lots of olay style defense with little effort.  Very Bibby esque, he couples  his poor defensive effort with a look around the court with what do you want me to do face or a flop.  Bibby and Trae would/will get abused defensively even more in today's NBA. LeBron would force a switch on him every play. He will be a target that gets isolated in the playoffs as teams game plan better. 

Good passer that can run your offense and can't be left open. He doesn't move without the ball and off handoffs the way Bibby did. Not near as crafty or as smart offensively at this stage of his career. Bibby was really cerebral  and he knew what shots he could get off and which he couldn't based on his physical limitations. He knew how to draw fouls from more athletic players too by stopping unexpectedly, going off wrong foot, and quick one hand scoops off one. Bibby' s shot selection was very good as Trae borders on the chucker side right now.  To be Bibby, Trea will have to get a lot smarter and pass then move without the ball better, so he doesn't stop the ball movement and becomes less of a high usage black hole. 

I could imaging Trae on those Kings teams of the 2000's ball stopping the free flow offense they ran, Chris Webber looking head in hands as he watches Trae launch 40 footers after dribbling 20 seconds. Bibby also grew up with a hall of fame coach and PG helping him craft his game, so he had that big advantage. 

2 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

I just got a weird forward flash daydream of the commish announcing ...and with the 6th pick in the NBA draft the Orlando Magic select Michael Porter Jr. (Tmac all over again in Orlando..)

 

This draft is making me crazy...

And me yelling ...wwwwhhhhhyyyyy did we draft JJJ at 3...and feel cheated and crappy....again..ugh

The thought of Porter Jr falling to the Bulls or a LeBron lead Cavs scares me. Please NBA be smarter than this. You give LeBron a third scorer like Porter and he may just stay. I want no part of Lavine, Porter Jr, Markkanen core in the east. You talk about versatility in scoring, with great shooting and 3 level scorers at the 2-4 spot. Then you bookend them with a defense first facilitator in Dunn and a defensive anchor at center it's scary. I've heard they want to offer Capella the max, but they would actually be a good landing spot for Dedmon too.

40 minutes ago, LastDon said:

Personally, I would love to keep Schröder.. He is a fiery competitor and a proven commodity..I think it would be a huge mistake by Travis to completely destroy the nucleus of this team.. You need guys who have had a taste of winning and been a part of a winning culture..I would like to just continue to add pieces to our already solid group..Schröder, Collins, Prince  and hard working vets like Baze, Dedmon is a solid core.. This definitely doesn't have to be the long rebuild that the media is portraying it to be..We  luckily added All star Caliber talent in last year draft in Collins.. If we nail our pick this year with another future All-star, I see no reason why we can't compete for the 8th spot as soon as next season with the grand opening of newly renovated arena.

 

Completely agree. Schröder shows up big in big moments. He played really well against Wall in the playoffs almost matched him. He's not afraid of the moment, and I truly believe he wants to be great. I would hate guy give up on him now especially if he has no value as everyone claims. If we could get the 12 pick for him like Teague, maybe I would listen, but I'm done with the Dwight Howard type trades. We need to get better value for our assets and quit selling low on them. 

Isn't it funny to see all these prospects playing together with team USA,  and who was the lead dog?  Most of the guys we are discussing at the top of this draft are in this video. 

Steve Blake still looking like a baller and giving Sexton the business a few times. Sexton is fast as hell.

46 minutes ago, Sothron said:

FWIW my one lone source says that they are leaning towards JJJ over Doncic. The belief is that the Kings are taking Bagley #2. Apparently JJJ has blown them away.

 Sometimes I wish there was a dislike button, and not because it's you. @Sothron 

4 hours ago, macdaddy said:

He's also not as small as people are making him out to be.  They can bulk him up like they did curry, but he's the same height as Dennis, CP, Lowry, Rondo, Kemba, Bledsoe.   Granted his wingspan isn't great but height-wise he's not unusually small.  

He's just a player and that's what I want.   A lot was made of how bad a team OK was and I wasn't sure I believed it until i watched myself.   Some sequences were comically bad and Trae could have hogged the ball and chucked shots much more than he did.   That team wouldn't have even gone near the NIT without him.  

 

Doesn't Oklahoma have a rich basketball history? I thought they were one one of the better programs. How did their talent get so bad when Trey got there? I'm not a big college basketball fan, so I'm curious.

A lot of players look bad playing with another ball dominate guard in Oklahoma that averages a lot of points and assist too. I think he averaged a triple double that last two years. 

I think I'm in the keep Schröder camp,  I honestly don't see any of the PGs in this draft being a clear upgrade over him. I bet Schröder would drop 40 on Trey. No way he can stay in front of him. 

6 hours ago, Royjr9 said:

Yeah but none of those guys are really here for the long haul. I’d be very surprised if bembry ad Dennis are here I two years. Baze is more difficult to gauge he’ll be exciting his prime but he’s not exactly a Lebron so where does he fit. Ball handling playmaking ability is what I shoot for.  Brown I see more of with than most. If his floor is Evan turner I still take a flyer ceiling could be a monster.

I agree floor it's Evan Turner and he has a lot in common with Doncic. He's a better defending worse shooting version. I still see both as secondary ball handlers though that play point on certain possessions. 

A less athletic Iguadala is probably his ceiling, and look how much better Iguadala is in Golden State surrounded by players that have strength where he's weak. How much worse would he look in Detroit with no shooters around? Fit matters. 

6 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Any player in this draft could be a bust. We need to draft best player available to try and ensure we do not draft a bust with 3 and 19. Take all the flyers in the world with 30 and 34 but minimize the risk at 3 and 19.

I think that's what I'm saying. Poor fit is a contributor to players busting and at the minimum not realizing their full potential. I actually think Orlando has a lot off talent,  but it can't win because there is no fit.

3 hours ago, Buzzard said:

I like Robinson, Allen, and McCoy to some extent. I want us to take BPA regardless of who we take 3rd. Allen and McCoy are candidates at 30 or 34, depends on their workouts for sure. And agree, if we want Robinson we will have to take him before 30 and 34. Robinson may not even be there at 19.

The danger in BPA only is you end up with a bunch off players that don't fit and step in each other's development. I like Troy Brown at 19, but he's basically a young more upside version of Bembry. I just don't like his fit with Baze, Bembry, and Schröder especially if w draft Doncic. That's too many sub par shooting wings. Khyri Thomas makes Doncic a better player by allowing him to hide in the worst offensive player, rather that be Sg or PG and Taurean can swap with him if the 3 is for example MKG from Charlotte. Thomas also is a 40% 3 point shooter giving the slow of foot Doncic more space to work with. Overall point being you have to think about player weaknesses and how they cover or exasborate their fellow teammates weaknesses.

2 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Some interesting workouts today:

Michael Cunningham: Hawks draft workouts for Sun: Allen (Duke), Foster (Creighton), Mahmoud (Louisville), Matthews (Rhode Island), McCoy (UNLV), Robinson (BC)

13 hours ago – via Twitter MCunninghamAJC

 

https://hoopshype.com/tag/draft/

 

According to most mocks only Robinson, Allen, and McCoy are being picked.

I like Jerome Robinson a lot; glad the Hawks are looking at him. He looks like NBA scorer to me. Very cerebral and is a surprisingly good ball handler and passer. Very good balance to his shot and can finish with both hands. I really like guys that can shot fake reposition and shoot on balance fast. This is something Clay and Steph do really well, and Jerome is excellent at this.  I put a premium on 3 level scorers,  so I would even consider him at 19.

Who we pick at 19 should be impacted by who we pick at 3. I like Robinson at 19 if we take Bamba or Porter Jr. If we pick Doncic, I like Khyri Thomas at 19 a guy that can space the floor better than Dennis and play lights out D on the 1 and 2 position. He also doesn't need the ball in his hand to be effective and can be a secondary ball handler. 

On 6/1/2018 at 1:25 PM, GameTime said:

Dennis has a extremely solid mid range game.  He shot 47% from mid range last year. That is why him being such a terrible 3pt shooter historically is baffling to me. Generally, the more mid range shots you shoot instead of 3's and drives the less efficient you are. The league is moving away from mid range. Heck look at the final 4 teams in the playoffs this year. It was mostly 3's and drives because those are the most efficient. Lloyd mentioned working on Collins' 3's, but he needs to really focus on Dennis' 3pt shot because if he can hit those shots, and not be afraid of contact when he drives to get those fouls called, he could be a great scorer in this league. I still don't see him leading a contender at PG because his passion vision is subpar, but he can be a nice scorer.

 

In my opinion Dennis lacks the strength to have consistent 3 point range. His shooting motion from midrange is effortless, smooth and fluid and consistent, but from 3 his shot is almost like a heave. This is also partly because Dennis has very little explosion from his legs on his shots and barely gets off the ground. You'll often see him step into his 3 almost like a middle schooler. He also seems to short arm the threes and not get full extension on them. 

I honestly thought at this point in his career he would have improved his strength. Either he's not working on his strength or his frame won't allow him to get stronger. You would think even without working out he would have his man strength. 

Maybe we should tell him to to start punching people out in the off season instead of stomping them out . Since that seems to be his workout regiment.  

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

 

I've seen the games. It's not that impressive but it's not terrible either. On ball defense won't be a stable for him. 

Yeah I've seen plenty of Donicic D I'm thinking of guys I'm interested in at 19 and 30 like Jerome Robinson, Kevin Huerter, Khyri Thomas,  Donte DiVincenzo, and De'Anthony Melton. Draft express was a good source of defensive cut ups. For example, Jerome Robinson has bad defensive advanced stats, but his team was pretty bad. I want to see him move on D because his O is nice. 

39 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I watched more college Basketball this year than in the last 8 years combined. I really want this draft to go well. 

I did too and I watched 3 Doncic games, but only did that because draft express guy went to ESPN and I knew it would be hard to get good video. Still is hard. Can't find much defensive video for any kid these prospects. 

15 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Wow!  1000-1 odds. 

https://goo.gl/images/Ruy5bY

1 hour ago, Buzzard said:

Speed and agility are two of the easiest things to improve on provided you are not a clumsy oaf to begin with. Which is why I am not going to label Doncic a bust.

For those who think you cannot increase speed and agility, I have nothing for you. It just makes me shake my head in disbelief to think a knowledgeable fan actually believes a 19 year old kid is not going to get any faster and quicker as his body matures and grows. I cannot even comprehend that thought or where it comes from to be honest.

I am not going to label Doncic a bust or a sure fire hall of famer. But I think he will be a good to great player in this league for years to come. For those of you who think you know who is the sure fire hall of famer, I applaud you.

I think there could be maybe five future all stars in this draft; but I could not tell you if my life depended on it who will be in the hall of fame ( the superstar ).

 I never said he would be a bust, I'm analysing his game and how he could be successful. Athleticism can be improved somewhat.  Korver improved his athletcism with P3, but he was still a liability getting killed in last night's game. Athletcism is needed on a sliding scale the better you shoot the less speed you need to get around people.  See Klay Thompson,  but noone is confusing Doncic shooting with Klays. Defensively athletcism will impact him.  I'm talking about how his game needs to change in the NBA to be successful. He's not going to be great imo playing like he did in the Euro league,  he's not going score efficiently with a steady diet one on one dribble moves against NBA athletes. I think it's much more likely he will improve his shooting than become an elite off the dribbles guy in the NBA. Even if he reaches Gordan Hayward status that's still not a number 1 on a championship team. Gordan couldn't get the Jazz over the hump, so he went to be a two in Boston. Donovan Mitchell lead them farther as a rookie. 

On 5/26/2018 at 4:06 PM, Buzzard said:

Doncic has not been measured so there is no empirical data on him. Here is the definition of what the lane agility drills measure:

purpose: this is a test of speed, body control and the ability to change direction (agility).

https://www.mlfutsal.org/page/show/3403844-lane-agility-drill

In a nutshell: for short term burst and quick change of direction, Hayward was one of the slowest shooting guards or small forwards at his combine. Nothing else to argue about: he was/is slow but is still an all-star. I rest my case.

I'm going to agree with @EazyRoc I've watched 3 full games of Doncic two of then being final four games and this is what I observed. Doncic is a tough study,  so let me layout what I see. Donicic looks much faster when he gets rebound and goes, or when they pass it to him in the back court and he sprints. If he gets up a head of steam at 230 lbs his top speed is sufficient, and this is also where his good ball handling shines. He can change direction with that head of steam very fluidly, so at first I was fooled.

Then we get into the half court and his lack of explosion is clear. Out of the triple threat and from a stand still dribble he very below average by NBA standards. He does not explode well which leads to him taking so many tough step back and funky shots even in the Euro league.  This lack of explosion is also evident with his rebounding, pay special attention to second effort rebounding, he barely gets off the ground.  This will only get worse in the NBA against better athletes, and it contributes to his poor shooting percentage. This is why I like him better as a two or three playing off an Alpha as the secondary initiator. As primary initiator 100% he will struggle because he lacks the explosion to get the edge, but if someone else can collapse the D and let him catch with a few steps of steam he could be successful. This is how Ginobili played he would catch and attack right off the catch most of the time or run pick action with Duncan(Alpha). If this guy goes to a isolation heavy team he's screwed. He needs a Bud, Stevens, Golden State type system. 

Bottom line is to use a football analogy he's s long strider that lacks short area burst. This is why guys like bust wide receiver Heyward-Bey can have Olympic speed, but create no separation in the NFL. Your ability to break down and change direction and get back to your top speed matters more than your top speed. Dennis Schröder's top speed is far higher than Chris Paul's, but Paul is extremely quick and can go 10 different speeds and create deception. Dennis really only has two speeds fast and slow. Euro players usually struggle with this and this is where street ball can help.

On 5/26/2018 at 1:22 PM, GrimeyKidd said:

Link to full article- https://atlsportshq.com/2018/05/26/test/

Would love to hear what you guys think about this. Before you ask. Yes i am mainly joking about the last three. 

I like Bradley if we draft Doncic, he can guard the tougher assignment between SG and PG and help make Doncic be less of a liability on D. Taurean could also swap defensive assignments with Doncic if the 3 position is the worst offensive player. 

45 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Doncic is simply a far superior player and prospect when compared with Michael Porter Jr.  Their ball handling ability and basketball IQ isn't even close.  Doncic blows Porter Jr away.  Porter Jr was a 31% three point shooter with his EYBL and FIBA numbers combined, and that wasn't against professional players and grown men like Luka was facing.  Porter will never be a guy who can initiate an offense.  Doncic is an elite ball handler and a good shooter with elite potential as a shooter.  He's also an elite passer with elite court vision and a high level basketball IQ.  

Why would Porter initiate your offense? He's a scorer not a PG. There is not a single scout or expert that questions Porter' s ability to shoot. Your basing your opinion on  an extremely small sample of one tournament in which he led them to a gold medal at age 16. I'm sure he's better now than he was in 2016. We will all be proven wrong or right very soon,  I can't wait to see the great Doncic in the NBA hope he does well, seems like nice kid.

3 hours ago, KB21 said:

Michael Porter Jr has been hyped up to be this unbelievably elite shooter, and he's simply not elite in that aspect.  Yes, he can shoot the pull up jumper off the dribble, but nothing in his AAU film or FIBA film suggests that he will be an efficient shooter.  He has major struggles at doing anything off the dribble that isn't a pull up jumper.  You rarely see him take his man off the dribble and attack the basket.  He's an above average vertical athlete and a below average horizontal athlete.  He's not long.  He rarely looks to pass the ball.

He's this draft's Andrew Wiggins.  

So your telling me a guy that shot 47% from 3 his senior year and 86% from the free throw line can't really shoot it's hype? Lets not act like he's standing in the corner catching and shooting getting spoon fed either. There's a ton of off the dribbles in that number. If you want to tear him down you should talk about his thin body and ball handling. He's tweener defensively like your boy Donic not quick enough to guard 3s but doesn't have the body to play 4. I can have one suspect defender on my championship roster(Curry, Harden), but he better be a hell of a scorer this guy is. This guy is not perfect prospect there's no LeBron in this draft. 

@KB21please stop with the hype crap. All these players are hyped and none more than your love child Doncic. I'm glad he can dominate a league full of NBA rejects like Chris Singelton and Adreian Payne. And by dominate I mean average 15 points a game while shooting 31% from 3. Is it not the least bit concerning to you that a guy that's been professionally trained paid to play a sport since 13 is 31% 3 point shooter? Ever heard of the rule of 10,000? I would have to think Doncic is a lot closer to his 10,000 hours than Porter whose been coached by non professionals and attending high school. To fulfill his potential Doncic will need to be a great shooter because his lack on the athletic scale. He would be much better served playing off an Alpha then trying to be one. Also I suspect his rebounding won't translate to the NBA because most of them are flat footed or barely off the ground. Wasn't Miloš Teodosić dominating the Euro league? How did he do in the NBA this year? I'll wait for you to tell me.

I was more on board with Doncic when Bud was the coach because I thought his system would get the most out of him. I have no idea of his fit with Pierce, but I think he can be an allstar in the right system. 

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Better video but emphasizes why i would have loved to see him play this year.  85% of the video was dunks with no one within 4 feet of him or being guarded by someone 4 inches shorter.

Why do you specifically need to see him play in college when we saw him excel against  most of the people in this class already except Doncic. We also have the added advantage of watching his younger brother play well enough to move himself into the first round of this draft, and Michael is the far superior prospect of the two. 

4 hours ago, EazyRoc said:

My 2 problems with MPJ are 1. He seems to be very much perimeter oriented and 2. From what I’ve seen, he seems like a below the rim type of player. Of course, there’s not a lot out there.

I can’t say either way with ANY confidence whether he will book or bust. 

 

Lots of above the room here.

10 hours ago, AHF said:

This is exactly what I am talking about.  "Another 1."  Haven't seen anything from him that says alpha #1 to me.  Stack the health on and he worries me.

Fair enough. I see most high school players highlights and it consist of 10 minutes of dunks and over powering inferior players and getting by on athleticism. Ive seen 10 minute highlights that are literally 10 minutes of Porter rhythm dribbling and mouth piecing people all over the court. He can score in a variety of ways and can make NBA shots dribble pull ups, rhythm pull ups fades. He's basically a 6-10 shot creator with 7 foot plus reach. How many guys that tall can bring the ball up court and hit a dribble pull up from deep 3? This kind of shot making ability translates to the NBA.

I also believe he has an Alpha mindset which is just as important as the skill set. Trae Young, Markelle Fultz etc other top recruits deferred to him. You saw what those guys did in college. Porter was the lead dog on those AAU teams and u18 Olympic teams. I also like that he's a coaches son.

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

I really wanted to see Porter play this year because he worries me as being more hype than true upside.  As a scorer with a subpar handle and eh long-range shooting numbers (and no defensive kudos) against HS competition, I was looking forward to seeing him prove it in college.  I don't hold the college production against him since the sample size was so small and he was recovering from injury but he would have to absolutely wow me.  The comparison to the Shelden draft is completely off base  to me because there are a lot of equally intriguing prospects in this draft whereas that one was pretty crappy (arguably one of the worst sets of lottery talent in the last 20 years).  You will be choosing between candidates with similar upsides to Porter but without the injury status and with more track record.

Who are the guys you envision having number 1 potential on a contender in this draft? I really only see Ayton or Porter having that upside. I'm not sure they will reach that plateau either, but I feel pretty confident JJ, Doncic, Bamba, Sexton, and Trae Young won't be number 1s on a contender. Bagley is like a mystery box I see him be as a Tyson Chandler or Shawn Marion type player,  but some think he has Anthony Davis type potential. All these guys could be all stars, but we need a number 1. We had plenty of all stars with no rings. 

I don't see Porter as slow personally. He's 6-10, show me the 6-10 guys that are faster than him. I see him as a bigger better version of Jayson Tatum, all the same criticisms were thrown out for him too(to slow, no D, can't handle).  Too bad top athletes don't do the combine anymore, but I bet he not much slower than Doncic while be far more athletic and imo a better shooter, and way longer.  Keep in mind he hasn't been a pro since the age of 13 either. Defense is always bad on rookies,  they all have to learn to play NBA defense. Like I said if they think there's another number 1 in this draft than by all means draft him,  but I'm not looking to find Al Horford 2.0, or Josh Smith 3.0. We need those players after we find an alpha #1 because this will likely be the highest pick of this rebuild.

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

I'm with you @ATLien_.  Pick the guy you envision being an alpha-type.  If'n he ain't there, get a guy who can be a DPOY.  For me, Porter has the combination of linth and shooting that could develop into a Durant-type.  That's the pick for me as of right now.  Next for me would be Bamba.

Let ORL take T. Young then realize after a couple years that he's more Seth Curry than Steph Curry.

I really like Bamba. While some think he will bust I see him as one of the surest things in this draft. In my mind I would be very surprised if he isn't a DPOY candidate by year 3 or 4 and the rest of his career there forward. He is rail thin and will struggle against real bangers early, but lucky for him the league is full of big guys that want to be Reggie Miller and are anemic to contact and the paint. I actually think Bamba will end up being a pretty good offensive player. He has good form on his jumper, and just needs repetition. He already shoots it much better than Deandre Jordan, Gobert and Clint Capella, hell even Ben Simmons. He is going to reek havoc on the floor because he's way quicker than Gobert and will alter tons of shots, and rebounds like a maniac. Even if his offense never develops that's an extremely valuable player to have. I guess I'm saying even at his floor Bamba is a valuable piece on a championship team.