niremetal

Forget about Mo for a minute. I don't think Marvin's stats this year warrant a starting SF on a upper level NBA team. We should see where Marvin's stats fall compared to the other top team's SF's.

How many of those other SFs are the 5th offensive option? And since when did stats become the be-all? By that measure, Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen are the worst starting SFs in recent NBA history.

Everyone bashes Smoove, Marvin and Al when they play terrible, but always have excuses or are in denial about Joe's terrible play..

That is complete and total BS. People bash Joe all the time, as much or more than Smoove and Marvin, and way more than Horford. Not saying it's entirely undeserved, but it's true. But since you obviously are a hater on him (you think everyone is "in denial" about the "terrible play" of a guy averaging 21, 5, and 5? really?), you only see the defenses of him and the bashings of your more-favored players.

Mo was our leading scorer coming out of the first quarter when the game was close... What are you talking about?

He said he started the game off hot, but I guess you chose to just skip over the second half of the very sentence that you quoted. Way to look for any opening to pump Mo up, since that obviously helps out your fire-breathing on Marvin.

Bogut will probably go over Lopez if the Bucks stay this much better than the Nets and if the Mil PG doesn't go.

If the Nets' winning percentage stays below .150, Lopez won't make the All-Star team. Not if Al is playing for a team with a .700+ winning percentage and is averaging a double-double. And not when Al is a better defender, better rebounder, better passer, and more efficient scorer.

Really, the only justification for putting Lopez on the team is that he has a better scoring average, but that doesn't mean much when your team's only other scoring option for most of the year has been Chris Douglas-Roberts. He also has more blocks, but I have a feeling that wouldn't be true if Lopez were playing alongside Josh Smith (a fact that the coaches are going to recognize).

As for Bogut, his stats are not really any better than Al's at this point, and he plays on a lesser team. And, like Lopez, he is a mediocre on-ball defender. I think Al is a frontrunner assuming that the coaches decide to overlook the ever-high marketing appeal of Shaq.

I see what Spotatl is talking about now. Confirmation Bias.

Nicolas Batum? Seriously? Nicolas Batum?

Wow.

I'll let this go after this post. When you bring up Nicolas Batum, it's time to end the discussion.

Batum was their best defensive player last year. As a rookie.

So you're right. If you dismiss the impact of Batum out-of-hand, you clearly don't watch the Blazers, so it's time to end the discussion.

As long as they weren't counting NBA TV as nationally televised. Pisses me off. Putting a game on NBA TV takes away more viewers (because it removes it from League Pass Broadband) than it adds, at least for fans of the teams that are playing.

The Hawks always do a little bit better than Chad Ford predicts we'll do. So this is a good sign.

Zaza gives it to you raw at 1:00 over sirens and gunshots. Hip-Hop will never be the same.

That is quite possibly the most awesome thing in the history of the universe.

You are implying that this is a legitimate article. Also you are implying that you read/have read this blog because you claim it to be respectable. Its never been mentioned here. Have you ever read any articles by Tenacious T?

I'm on Nire's side, its something to be skeptical of. Why would this writer in Boston all of the sudden have access to the Hawks? Have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

Also note that I (and I'm assuming Nire as well) do not claim this article to be false, I am just not validating it like most on here have done already.

Co-sign.

LMAO @ how the people are already coming out of the woodwork to nit-pick about the article, instead of addressing the facts stated in the article. You gotta love it.

I don't buy that the quotes are facts, and that's all I'm nitpicking.

@ niremental: You may be correct. But ask yourself this. Why would someone who runs a respected blog in BOSTON, make up quotes and stories about the players liking the coach?

Who knows. Maybe he didn't get the quotes personally, but instead got them from someone who he trusted and said he did talk to the players. Maybe he was bored. Maybe he thought no one would pick up on it. Maybe he's just an idiot like the people on ESPN who post quotes from "Hawks sources" that turn out to be complete BS. Happens all the time. I've worked for a judge before and have seen lawyers lie to the judge's face about something they thought they could get away with (but that any reasonable person seemingly would have known would have led to trouble), so stranger things happen. And this guy isn't even a journalist - he's a blogger. No press pass, no ethics code.

The people who do these blogs do have access to some of these teams.

It would be more accurate to say that SOME of them have SOME access to ONE team (maybe 2-3). But SBNation is fan bloggers, not beat writers or journalists. Having two good friends who contribute to other SBNation blogs, I can tell you - most of them are just fans with zero access.

If this same article came from peachtreehoops.com, you wouldn't be disputing it.

Yes, I would.

And don't get it twisted man. Some of these people on these fan blogs are actually sports writers. They may be using made-up usernames like you and I, but they're writers nonetheless.

There are a lot of "writers" out there on SBNation and on other fan (rather than news organization) blogs. They all are writers. But the vast majority of them are not journalists. They don't have a press pass. They don't get access to the locker room (even of their "home" team, much less a team from another city). They have to go through agents to get in touch with the players, and most agents wouldn't let them close. Getting a quote from one player would be a feat. Getting quotes from 5 players on an opposing team that hasn't visited town for 2 weeks? That would be pretty extraordinary for a fan blogger. Even beyond that, they aren't subject to training sessions relating to sourcing, paraphrasing, and quoting, nor are they bound by the standards of professional ethics of accredited journalists.

Looking backward at his previous posts, I see nothing that tells me that the guy who wrote this "article" is different than most other fan bloggers.

Let's see if some of the players will come out and dispute the quotes. Or better yet, how about contacting Ken ( who obviously follows this blog ), to see if he can get the same types of answers from the players, concerning Woody.

The players won't respond unless a bigger fish than a few contributers to fan blogs pick up on this. But I would far from shocked if this turned out to be the way that each of the players actually felt. I never said it wasn't true. I said there were a hell of a lot of red flags. And there are.

I was ticked about the NY game and decided to not even watch the game last night. I decided to take a nap instead. 13-24 shooting is rare for JJ though.

He shot 50% or better when taking 20+ shots 10 times last year. And he scored 30+ points 12 times last year. And he hit 10 FGs while shooting 50% or better from the floor 17 times last year. There were 21 games where at least 1 of those 3 happened.

So...how is that rare? And how many perimeter players in the NBA have nights like that more often than JJ?

WARNING - that blog is NOT a journalistic or even major blog source. It is from a Boston Celtics fan blog. We have NO way of knowing its reliability and frankly I would be shocked if 5 Hawks rotation players took the time to sit down and talk to a Boston Celtics fan blogger during the season for a story about the contract situation of their head coach.

And otherwise, the article appears to be completely unsourced. Red flags, folks. I wouldn't trust it unless the purported quotes from "the five players I spoke to" appear in a legit media source.

Screens, back cuts, .... players cutting through the post happen all the time for teams that are guard/outside shot oriented. Pistons, Wizards, Suns to name three right off the top of my head. So do pick and rolls and pick and pops; not to mention those slashes also free players up for quick layups or dunks. ISO JJ could be effective if he passed the ball quickly and players actually moved to open spots inside, through, and outside of the paint.

Woody is coaching offense at a middle school/high school level at best on most nights. And to have three veteran guards who have been good to great passers and shooters their whole NBA career..... his schemes, or lack there of being more accurate, is a complete waste of half their talent.

Yup. The thing that's most striking to me about our offense is the lack of off-ball movement. We see this far too often: If the ball goes to the post, the guys on the perimeter stand still. If it goes to JJ on an ISO, everyone else stands still. If Crawford gets the ball at the top of the key and tries to break his man down, no one moves. It's obvious that simple things like off-ball screens and backdoor cuts are not emphasized as part of the offense. Considering that we almost always have 4 good passers on the floor at any given time (Marvin and Zaza being the exceptions), that's mind-boggling.

hawksquawk will be quiet tonight...

It only seems to get jumping when Joe throws up some of those 6/18 and 5/19 nights. He gets called a chucker, etc.

Funny, because another player in our division has had these nights:

6/17

6/19

6/18

6/22

6/19

And shot a combined 42% in November... and has followed that up with a 40% clip thus far in December.

I'm guessing non of that teams' boards trash that player.

Oh - and we beat that player last year in the Playoffs. And Joe out-played him in Game 7 (despite Joe being labeled a post-season bust).

Funny - When Joe came here - the Hawks had won 13 games the prior season. All they've done is get better and better as a team has continued to play together.

The franchises fondest memories this decade? Joe's 20-point 4th quarter against the eventual NBA champ-Celtics in Game 4. Joe's Game 7 vs. the Heat.

He averaged 20, 4 and 4 vs. the Celtics in 07/08

He averaged 17, 5 and 4 with 2 steals in May of last year (final two Heat games and all of the Cavs games)

You people complain that he's not a #1 option - he just outplayed Dirk. You think Mavs fans hate on Dirk as much as Hawks fans hate on Joe?

He's 12th in the league in PPG (before tonight's 31... so that might change up to 11th)... of those 12 players - Joe takes the 3rd least amount of shots.

He has a better shooting percentage (despite being such a chucker) than:

Arenas

Jennings

Granger

and DWade

He has a better Assist to Turnover ratio than:

Monta Ellis

D Rose

D Wade

B Jennings

Arenas

Westbrook

Mo Williams

Kobe Bryant

Paul Pierce

He averages the same boards as Kobe and more boards than:

D Wade

B Roy

I come on this board once a few months or so to try and give peeps a decent picture of what's going on... only a few of you typically listen. I've said if for a few years now:

Joe's not LeBron. He's not Kobe. He's not some mega-watt super-duper star. He's a super-star. A steady all-star...

speaking of which. I've never been around fans of a team that say after one of their own gets selected for an all-star team, "he doesn't deserve to be there." What a pathetic bunch of fans some of you are. I'm not saying you have to be all rah-rah all the time... but for a franchise that's basically been a joke for over a decade... you'd figure some of ya'll would embrace some love.

I agree you'd like to see Joe be more consistent on a night to night basis. The reason he isn't? Cause he's not some ridiculous athlete. His game is not above the rim. DWade, Melo, Bron, etc. can average what they do because when their jumper's off (as illustrated above - D-Wade has had more stinkers this year than Joe has)... their ability to drive to the rim and get bailed out on calls allows them to pad the stats by shooting 12 of 14 from the line. Joe doesn't get that padding. So if he's 5/19... he's not gonna score 20... he just doesn't get to the line that much. He's just not an above the rim player. He's actually pretty similar to Ray Allen in that regard. He's a better defender and has has a bit more ball-handling and passing skills than Ray... Ray's a purer shooter and has a much quicker release. But Ray never really got to the line a lot either. Ray's been getting max money now for about 8 or 9 seasons. Ray's best year on a PPG basis? 06/07 - Seattle's record that year? 31-51 (and Ray was 31).

So yeah... board will be quiet. This post won't get a response..... because it's more fun for people like Hotlanta, etc... to wait out the good Joe games or simply type "about time" on a positive post... and then go hog wild after joe throws up a stinker and rant and rave about how much of a non-superstar Joe is.

Honestly, I almost wish the Hotlanta's of the world could have Joe just leave and watch the Hawks stumble to find a replacement for him.. and watch the team regress while Joe flourishes playing somewhere else. I have a sneaking suspicion that when the Hawks are losing 50 and 60 games again - a lot of these Joe naysayers won't be around Hawksquawk anymore. And for people on the fence... you'll be longing for the day that you had a top 20-25 player in the NBA on your team.

Some other random things I love -

Tonight -we got 2 O rebounds on a possession late in the 3rd quarter (I wanna say it was around the 4:30 mark remaining)... Joe didn't touch the ball the whole possession. The other Hawks on the floor combined to go 0-3, and the possession got us nothing despite the o rebounds. I know the ISO Joe offense can get stagnant. I know watching Joe pound the rock against the floor for 20 seconds can get old sometimes... but you realize he's our best player on offense, right? You realize the most good things happen when he has the ball, right? You'll typically either get him going for a score (not terrible at doing it) or him setting up a teammate (not terrible at that either). And you've watched other basketball teams play right? It's not like the ISO JJ is some ATL-only phenomenon. Watch a Cavs possession in the 4th quarter. Or a Heat possession. Or a Jazz posession. Or a Blazers possession. Or a Mavs possession. I could go on and on. Typically most teams give the ball to their best player and say "go do something." NBA coaches, for the most part, are over-rated. There are a few exceptions... but for the most part - whichever team has better players wins... except when a team is flat, disinterested, off, whatever. So keep whining about ISO JJ... but honestly I'm not sure how many other NBA games you've watched. Any team with an all-star type player gives the ball to that all-star type player and says "go do something."

I saw someone complaining that we've lost to stinky teams. Didn't read the post because it was a waste of time.

Cavs losses: Toronto, Chicago, Washington (by 17), Charlotte

Celtics losses: Indiana

Magic losses: Detroit, Oklahoma City (by almost 30)

Lakers losses: Dallas (who we just beat), Houston... oh and the Lakers have played 4 road games.

Phoenix losses: New Orleans (without Chris Paul... just like us), Knicks (by 27)

again - I could keep going... but the point is - it's an 82 game season. There are ebbs and flows. You don't win every game you should win on paper. Guys get tired, bored, distracted, disinterested, lazy, etc. It happens. All of us have plenty of off days at work. It's a grind. Sometimes you show up and lay an egg... ah well... get em next time. So we lost to the Knicks. But we've won 2 of our last three. We're 6-4 on the road. We're winning 70% of our games. Don't sweat the little stuff.

I dunno... It feels like I write the same post every year... I guess I haven't forgotten what 13 wins in a whole season feels like. Maybe some of you folks weren't paying attention when it sucked; so you can't appreciate the team now. I dunno. I'm happy seeing progression. I'm content with Joe Johnson. I think he's good. I watch enough other games to have seen many a DWade, Kobe, Durant, etc. suck-fest to know guys (no matter how good) have off games or weeks... I just try and keep it all in perspective.

Over the past few years on 12/5 here's where we stood:

08/09 - 12-6 - Conference Semi's (same crew, minus afro power)

07/08 - 7-10 - Playoffs (the modern era lol... Joe, the two Joshes, Bibby, Marvin and Horford's rookie year)

06/07 - 7-9 (Joe, the two Joshes, and Marvin)

05/06 - 2-14 (Joe Johnson's first year here, Al Harrington, and the two Joshes)

04/05 - 2-14 (Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Tyronn Lue and the two Joshes as rookies were our studs)

03/04 - 6-14 (Stephen Jackson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

02/03 - 9-10 (Glenn Robinson, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Jason Terry, and Theo Ratliff were our studs)

So if you people wanna argue over if Joe's a super star or not... or what we should do with him this offseason, etc. - go right ahead. If you wanna jump on hawksquawk to complain about Joe anytime he has an off night - I guess we need a thread of "stars that stunk tonight." I'll log on every night and go over every all-stars bad shooting performance so we can keep Joe's 15 stinkers a year in perspective. I dunno - I guess I'm just happy to have a guy the whole NBA community recognizes as a super-star around here. But that's right - you all know more than beat writers, announcers, gms, coaches and NBA players (past and present). I got it now. Again - I know there's plenty of other teams out there that want the man.

And lastly, many of you know I actually live in phoenix... happened to flip to the suns game tonight during a break in the hawks game. Saw Kevin Martin in a suit. You people realize he's going to be 27 in February, right? Joe's 28. I've seen Martin's name brought up as a trade idea on here.... You know the concept of "injury prone," right? Here's his games (note: you might not be able to tell, but the NBA season is 82 games long):

04/05 - 45

05/06 - 72

06/07 - 80

07/08 - 61

08/09 - 51

09/10 - 5

Kevin Martin has played in 314 career games over 5.25 NBA seasons (so he's played 314 out of a possible 428 games). And you want to talk about chucking? This season he's averaging 30 a game (over his 5 games played) - yet he's taking 22 shots a game and shooting 42%. Last year he averaged 24.6 ppg on 42%. Kevin Martin does get the free-throw line a lot... but I'm guessing that might stop a bit... because clearly his body can't take the beating. So I'm not sure how Kevin Martin is someone you want to pay max money to, but Joe isn't.

Anyhew - this kinda got rambly... and I apologize for that... but again... a bunch of peeps on this board are missing some perspective.

Big ups to northcyde... he and I think alike... yet he has waaaaay more patience than me and actually posts good "keep it in perspective" posts all the time... but like me... those threads seem to end or get off topic and nobody actually has much of a comback to what he says other than "great post" or "that's the most logical thing I've read" or "I agree with northcyde."

Keep it up northcyde... maybe someday they'll make you a mod or give you your own wing on hawksquawk. Whether it's espn.com, ajc.com or here - you're always the guy who's post I enjoy the most... because they're exactly what I'm thinking. I jut don't know how you handle all the knee-jerk jerks out there...

M

Whatever quibbles I may have with it, that was one of the best posts I've ever seen on here.

I've never been a bigtime anti-Marvin guy in the past...nor am I now. Do I think Sund screwed up giving him a new contract (yes). I'm trying to go past that though. Forget Marvin and think about what this team needs to compete against teams like ORL/Boston/CLE. We aren't gonna get a top level center...and replacing either Horford or Smoove would be folly. JJ is our (semi) all-star and Bibby saved Woody's nuts. It's not football...there are only five spots. We need to strengthen our weakest link. I mentioned Artest but that was only as a guidepost...there are lotsa guys out there that can fit the bill to a degree.

My quibble is that Josh is not a 3/4. He is a 4. A slightly small 4, but a 4 nonetheless. The idea that he is, should be, or even can be a 3 (at least a decent one) has been abandoned by virtually everyone around here (not to mention by his coach and teammates). His skill set is almost entirely suited for the 4 position and his weaknesses are all most exposed at the 3 position. His most important assets - his running and jumping ability - are far less of a factor when he is playing a position manned by quicker and more athletic players. The areas of his game where he is relatively weak (perimeter D, outside shooting, lateral quickness) are more exposed at the 3. And of course, spending more time at the 3 means spending more time on the perimeter on D - which means that the league's best help defender and shotblocker will be further away from the basket more often.

The more Josh is placed close to the basket, the more he is a factor - at both ends. This doesn't at all change your argument about the 3 being our weak link, of course - if anything, it underscores it. I just get tired of seeing these occasional posts suggesting that Josh is somehow a combo forward.

This is just an opinion and a wish...I doubt the ASG will do anything.

We have a PF who is really a 2/3. We have a center who is really a 1/2. In order to make that work we need a 3 that is a 3/2. Now granted, these guys are hard to come by...but if we had a 3 that was about 6'8" and had some real "gittyup" to him we could overcome the lapses we have inside as far as rebounding and defense. Currently we have two inside guys - Horford and Smoove. Marvin is likely a nice fella...but he is a ghost in the paint. If we could get a 3 that had reasonable shooting skills and who could also hold his own inside (an Artest-type player)...we would be in pretty good shape. As it is, we have a lot of solid guys, but giving away the 3 spot is killing us IMO...it's a crucial position for any good team.

Unless I'm reading you wrong, I think you've got the numbers mixed up. A center is a 5 and a PG is a 1.

I find it hysterical that some people still think that size is the only thing keeping the Hawks from stopping D-12.

Joe is in a shooting slump about 80% of the time. His hot shooting comes in a short spurt in a game.

Now that's some 5-star hyperbole, there.

Things are so black and white to you. If I say something bad about JJ, it means I like Woodsons' offense or something. This is a JJ thread so I am talking about JJ. I do think the responsibility is pretty even, so lets blame 50% of JJ's shots taken on him and 50% on Woody.

JJ is a grown man and does not have to shoot everytime he gets the ball; nor does Woody have to give JJ the ball so much. You happy now? I am :help wanted3:

You see, that sounds nice. Except that JJ doesn't shoot every time he gets the ball. He doesn't even shoot most of the time he gets the ball. Does he still shoot too much? Yes. But so did Paul Pierce with Jim O'Brien. Boston fans were screaming that Pierce was a selfish player. Then Doc came to town and Pierce's shot attempts suddenly went down and his shooting percentage went up - and that was 3 years before KG and Ray came to town. No one who watched JJ when he played in Phoenix will say JJ was a selfish player or a "natural" ballhog. Hell, D'Antoni himself praised his unselfishness even after JJ left Phoenix, and no one was calling JJ a ballhog during his first few months with the Hawks (when the D'Antoni system was still engrained in his mind). It wasn't until after Harrington left that the ISO-Joe era began in earnest (although people were bitching about ISO-Lue even before that).

And even if you don't believe me about JJ, what about Crawford? He's a grown man too, isn't he? So when he came to town talking like a distributor and then Woody told him publicly and privately that he wanted him instead to be the league's leading scorer off the bench. And whaddya know - Crawford's assists have actually gone way, way down compared with past years. And it's not like he and JJ were even the only ones. I'm sure you remember people complaining about Lue pounding the ball and complaining about Flip being a chucker.

If it were just JJ, I would blame JJ. But this is a recurring theme among guards in Woodson's offense. Hell, it's a recurring theme in Woody's offense in general (remember Bibby's "if you don't want Josh to shoot from there, then don't put him there" comment during the playoffs?). The bottom line is this: It's the coach's job to get his players to play the way they should. Clearly, Woody is not doing that because the Hawks' inconsistency and tendency to slip into indifference on the boards and ISO offense continues, and the problem is not isolated to JJ (no pun intended). So I have a tough time buying into the idea that JJ is somehow equally at fault.

I've said it over and over again... so I will pose it as a question.

We normally win when we outrebound teams, have ball movement, and find ways for our inside people to score. However, of all these three, I would say that the surefire key to wins for this team is rebounding.

Just look over our losses:

Lakers = Outrebounded us by 2 plus they shot 53% from the field.

Bobcats = US outrebounded 56-35.

New Orleans = We actually outrebounded them by 4... but they did shoot 70% from 3.

Orlando = Outrebounded us 53-41.

Detroit = Ben Wallace. They outrebounded us 53-27.

60% of the games we have loss,we lost because we were out-rebounded in double digits. The other 40% is unconscious shooting efforts. I think in a series we can get over great shooting. That's what defense is about. However, we have to find a way to have consistent rebounding.

Both Smoove and Al appear in the top 15 rebounders in the league. However, neither are what I would call consistent. And if Smoove is in foul trouble, it's bad. So how do we do it?

Moreover, neither Smoove or Al are consistent scorers in the post.

Would JJ play better if there were a consistent post scorer?

So, in this thread, I want to put it to the Squawk. What are some suggestions that we can take on improving our rebounding/post scoring?

Two solutions immediately come to mind:

Have you learned nothing! It's all okay! We now have........

...... Crawford isos! :beer11:

Woohoo! Man, it's so refreshing to have a coach who manages to turn a guy who came in talking like a pass-first point guard into JJ-lite.

Its not hate its reality; its this team maturing and becoming better together. JJ was our only option for years. We can now win without JJ shooting 20 times a game. In fact he hurts us doing that on his bad nights now.

JJ just needs to chill out with the 20 shots taken and tone it down to 10 to 15 when he is in a slump. We can now win if he only scores 10 to 15 points; and we can do it consistently as long as he shares the ball.

Or maybe, just maybe, Woody needs to implement a system that doesn't call for ISO-Joe or ISO-Jamal (or ISO-Lue or ISO-Flip in the days of yore) to be run every third possession.

Oh wait, I forgot. That won't happen. So let's just blame JJ for Woody's inability to implement/explain/get his team to buy into an offensive system that looks any different from the one he had in place when the team went 13-69. JJ isn't as good as LeBron but the one-on-one isolation focus of Woodson's system let's him play like he is. Did any other leading scorer for a title winning team ever play in a team without a system that went beyond "isolate, go one-on-one, and see what happens?" Nope. But let's blame JJ for Woody's system anyway. Yeah, let's do that. That makes sense.

I watched the first second half possession in Which JJ hogged the ball and eventually made a layup. I knew that added fuel to his fire and that the game might be in trouble. When JJ first got here he used to pass the ball. What happened? It's pretty much unwatchable right now.

Emmitt

What happened is Woody. When JJ arrived, he still had D'Antoni's motion and ball movement-oriented system ingrained in his brain. But once Harrington left, Woody told JJ he had to put the team on his back. Is JJ being a ballhog? Yes. But he was never a ballog in Phoenix, and it would NOT be difficult to design a system here in which JJ still got the most touches but wasn't called on to run so many ISOs.

And let us not forget that JJ is merely the most obvious of an ever-expanding line of scoring guards (Lue, Flip, Crawford) who people accuse of dominating the ball and taking ill-advised and contested shots. It's amazing how people either forget or choose to ignore that when they act like JJ is the only (or even the #1) thing keeping us from becoming a ball-sharing team.

It's strange, isn't it? Dol, that's why I say what I say on this board. Someone has to counteract all of the extreme reaction and paranoia on this board.

When we win, we're this championship caliber team in which all credit goes to the players. When we lose, we're the worst team in the league in which all blame goes to the coach.

At 12 - 4, people should be jumping for joy around here. But some of these guys are so used to complaining about everything so much, that they can't even enjoy the fact that we're one of the top teams in the NBA.

Our losses are against

- the Lakers ( huge athletic frontline + best player in NBA ),

- the Magic ( dominant defensive center + 3pt shooters all over the place ),

- the Bobcats ( after having to travel from the extreme west coast to the east coast to play them )

- and to the Hornets ( in what was simply a bad loss ).

We have a .750 winning percentage, which would put us on pace to win 62 games ( easily the best in franchise history ), and people STILL aren't happy?

LOL

Seriously . . . what's the problem?

You must be hiding under a rock if you don't think there are people who take the reverse tack - they say it's to Woodson's credit that the Hawks win with such a pitiful roster, and because of the shortcomings of the players when the team loses. And you also obviously don't check other teams' message boards if you think that mentality is confined to Atlanta. It's the same with pretty much everyone in the universe of sports fans - it's because of their most-favoreds when their team wins, and because of their least-favoreds when they lose.

trying to buy the smith red jersey no 30% discount is showing at checkout?

Not working for me either.