niremetal

For what it's worth, we actually are paying him less than RandMo, the NBA pays the rest.

Also, there probably isn't a GM in the league who would prefer Collins over Zaza to guard Dwight.

We brought Collins here in case people got hurt. Anyone who thought a minimum-salary vet center who spent last year playing garbage time minutes for a 25-win team was brought over to guard the best center in the NBA...well, just think about that.

You mind sending me the link to where you got the stats for fastbreak points? The times I have tried to find that info I never seem to come across it easily.

The links are in my original post. For this year, the link is:

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game

As I recall the Hawks were top 3 in fastbreak points last season as well.

Close - we were #5.

In 2006-2007, the Hawks averaged 38.7ppg in the paint, good for 18th in the league. We also averaged 11.8 fast break points per game in 2006-2007, tied for 17th in the league.

This year, we are averaging a whopping 51.4ppg in the paint, tops in the NBA. We also are averaging 17.6 fast break ppg, good for 3rd in the league.

Against New Orleans, we scored just 40 points in the paint, more than 20% below our season average. We got just 13 fast break points, 35% below our season average.

Hmmmmmmmmmm... :whistling:

I take strong issue with the idea that there is a good pro bball market in Atlanta. Atlanta is NOT a bball town, and certainly not a pro bball town. Unlike in Portland, Sacramento, and (most notably) Utah, the Hawks are not the only show in town. In fact, football and baseball have always been the first and second loves around here, and college sports have always trumped pro sports in the hearts and minds of fans. Add to that the fact that Atlanta is a really sprawling metro area (and without a supermassive population like LA), and the fan base of people who root for the Hawks before anyone else (which is what it normally takes to get them to buy a significant number of tickets) just isn’t that big.

Atlanta fans are also notoriously casual and fair-weathered (remember how the Braves couldn't sell out playoff games during years where the Indians, who had been even more futile in the playoffs, were selling out every regular season game?), but I think that’s more due to the fact that Atlanta has so many people who were born and raised elsewhere than anything else. Just for context, though: The Hawks have never gotten higher than 8th in the NBA in attendance since they came to Atlanta, and the last two times they won more than 55 games (in ‘94 and ‘98), they ranked 21st and 27th in attendance. We ranked 27th in attendance in the lockout year, even though we ended up being the #3 seed in the East. Compare that to Utah, which ranked 8th in attendance even when they lost 56 games a few years ago. Simply put, when compared to NBA teams in other cities as well as to other sports teams in our own city, Hawks attendance takes longer to get going even when we are winning (and even then they don’t come in high numbers), and tails off much more quickly when they start losing. And of course, we’ve all seen the games at Phillips where there were more Knicks/Celtics fans than Hawks fans in the audience – even when the Knicks and Celtics were terrible.

Hopefully, the “fair weather” and “casual” aspect will start to disappear over the course of the next 10-20 years as the number of Atlantans who were born and raised here increases, but that probably won’t change the fact that college football, baseball, pro football, and college basketball will all garner more attention than the NBA in Atlanta. Atlanta is NOT a good basketball market for a metro area of its size.

Btw - I currently live in the other city with notoriously terrible bball fans. Philadelphia cheers for the Phillies first, Eagles second, Flyers third, Nittany Lions fourth, Big Five hoops fifth, and Sixers last. I went to opening night (against the Hawks, as a matter of fact) here a couple years ago. Couldn't have been more than 5000 people in the stands.

There is a good market in Atlanta; but our franchises history is blotted with really bad teams in every decade. Even during the good decades we had some pretty poor teams. I am a die hard as most here are; you don't have to sell me basketball, I already love it. But a lot of the market is not like us. With our history of futility, until we start competing for division titles and championships, middle of the road attendance is the best you can get in the Atlanta market.

I take strong issue with the idea that there is a good pro bball market in Atlanta. Atlanta is NOT a bball town, and certainly not a pro bball town. Unlike in Portland, Sacramento, and (most notably) Utah, the Hawks are not the only show in town. In fact, football and baseball have always been the first and second loves around here, and college sports have always trumped pro sports in the hearts and minds of fans. Add to that the fact that Atlanta is a really sprawling metro area (and without a supermassive population like LA), and the fan base of people who root for the Hawks before anyone else (which is what it normally takes to get them to buy a significant number of tickets) just isn’t that big.

Atlanta fans are also notoriously casual and fair-weathered (remember how the Braves couldn't sell out playoff games during years where the Indians, who had been even more futile in the playoffs, were selling out every regular season game?), but I think that’s more due to the fact that Atlanta has so many people who were born and raised elsewhere than anything else. Just for context, though: The Hawks have never gotten higher than 8th in the NBA in attendance since they came to Atlanta, and the last two times they won more than 55 games (in ‘94 and ‘98), they ranked 21st and 27th in attendance. We ranked 27th in attendance in the lockout year, even though we ended up being the #3 seed in the East. Compare that to Utah, which ranked 8th in attendance even when they lost 56 games a few years ago. Simply put, when compared to NBA teams in other cities as well as to other sports teams in our own city, Hawks attendance takes longer to get going even when we are winning (and even then they don’t come in high numbers), and tails off much more quickly when they start losing. And of course, we’ve all seen the games at Phillips where there were more Knicks/Celtics fans than Hawks fans in the audience – even when the Knicks and Celtics were terrible.

Hopefully, the “fair weather” and “casual” aspect will start to disappear over the course of the next 10-20 years as the number of Atlantans who were born and raised here increases, but that probably won’t change the fact that college football, baseball, pro football, and college basketball will all garner more attention than the NBA in Atlanta. Atlanta is NOT a good basketball market for a metro area of its size.

I should clarify that statement, for the offense that we unfortunately run I'd much rather see ISO-Jamal than stand in the corner 3pt shooter Jamal.

I'd like to see our entire offense based more on screens/PnR's/etc. but since that's not going to happen with Woody as the coach we need to make sure that we run the plays that are most successful in his system.

Fair enough, and good point.

Yep I was getting so frustrated watching him sit in the corner and take those 3's. We didn't bring him here to be a spot up 3pt shooter, we brought him in to run ISO-Jamal and when he's doing that our offense seems fine. There were times against the Hornets where he was making nearly every shot he took off the dribble but he is really struggling when he's playing the Marvin role and camping out at the 3pt line waiting to take that shot.

I'm not sure our offense has been fine when we run ISO-Jamal. Like with ISO-Joe, it's fine if we run it every once in awhile. But the ISO-Jamal followed by ISO-Joe that we saw ad nauseum last night was not working. ISO plays are too easy to predict and cover if you run them as frequently as we do.

I'd like to see Jamal off more screen-rolls rather than ISOs.

1- When I said Phoenix was willing to match, that was taken directly from what their owner said with no doubts as to whether the Phoenix organization said it or meant it. I am not going to act like a mind reader and read something else into it. And quite honestly I doubt very seriously if the Suns management team ever told JJ they were bluffing; or invited him to a management meeting to discuss such a possible bluff. So how JJ all of a sudden became a mind reader we can count on definetely with 100 % certainty is beyond me.

2- Phoenix was a lot better than us but JJ left anyway.

My whole statement was a response to I hope the poster I was responding to was wrong. I never told him flat out I am 100% correct; as you implied in your response to me with your use of the words. (Paraphrased) "Phoenix was definetely not going to match (Buzzard) because JJ said so; therefore you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right.

You're hilarious, dude. You're basing on what the Phoenix owner told the public and are dismissive of the possibility that the owner was bluffing, basically arguing that those self-interested statements are obviously more reliable than the read of a player who sat across the negotiation player from the owners, and acting as if no one else has ever said that Phoenix was bluffing (when in reality MOST Hawks fans who've talked about this here and on the AJC blog have said Phoenix was bluffing). Yet in your original post, you said that Phoenix "was" going to match and called your opinion "facts." How is that not speaking with certainty?

Whatever. You keep trying to climb down from your high horse; have fun.

Well the way you came at me was I am full of it because you know for a fact Phoenix was not going to match. Sorry but the only facts we have is what others say. Owner says he would have matched....JJ says he would not. History also shows us MOST teams do not lose RESTRICTED free agents for nothing. But with all that being said, yours nor my opinion is fact; so calling me dead wrong just because we differ in opinions; and actling like your opinion is the word of God is condescending as well.

In no uncertain terms, you responded to my initital post like a pompous know it all jackass as well...

You spoke with absolute certainty in your original post on the subject ("Phoenix was willing to match our offer and keep him."). I responded with similar certainty. But unlike you, I didn't make a barely-veiled suggestion that you made your source up. That's the difference, buddy. You spoke with certainty and I responded in kind, but you were the one who proceeded to condescend by suggesting that I merely "thought" JJ said something. Everyone speaks with certainty around here when they state their opinions. That's part of being on a blog. But you're the first person I've seen respond to someone's post by saying something like your "what you think JJ said" statement. So don't try to equate our posts, unless you want other people to start responding to all your posts in the same way. Because if that happens, you'll find yourself having to provide links and citations for everything you say.

I will go on what the Suns org said; you can go on what you think JJ said one or two years ago. Suns owner said he would match AND Nash said he flat out wanted JJ back. Nash even had a talk with JJ. I don't think the Suns were willing to argue with their best player since HOF Sir Charles; nor do I think they were willing to lose an all-star type player for nothing.

I guess you think no part of my argument, which I can find direct quotes on from here, is valid. Only thing important is what you think JJ said one or two years ago...

Here is a link with the quote:

"I had a few teams come at me that summer and they backed out because Phoenix put the word out that they were going to match anything," Johnson said. "A lot of teams were like, 'Why take a chance on Joe Johnson when you're not going to get him anyway.' And all along, Phoenix wasn't going to match. They were just scaring teams off. They didn't scare Atlanta off. The Hawks stayed in there. I'll always remember that."

The original article on AJC has been archived, but you can find it reprinted on lots of other blogs. Since lots of Hawks fans remember and talk about that interview, it didn't occur to me that you'd be such a condescending jackass as to challenge me to find a link to it and dismiss me as only citing "what I think JJ said one or two years ago." My mistake for overestimating you.

this should be directed toward jj ... seen him force one when craw was wide open last night. craw has 2 yrs left on contract lol

Both Craw and JJ do it. It's a natural byproduct of an offense where isolations and 1-on-1s make up a majority of the half-court plays.

I hope you are wrong and he sees no other place he would rather be. But these two facts worry me about JJ.

1- Phoenix was willing to match our offer and keep him. JJ did not want to stay.

2- They were a hell of a lot better than us back then. About 40 to 50 wins a season better.

JJ danced to the beat of a different drummer 5 years ago; I hope he is not dancing that way again after this season. I also think the extra year is bigger this time around because it will be his last near max or max offer.

Phoenix most definitely was not willing to match our offer and keep him. Knight got bluffed. Do you really think Phoenix was about to invest $55-60M/year in just 4 players? JJ even said a year or two ago that Phoenix would never have matched.

Phoenix wasn't going to give JJ a contract any better than the one we gave Smoove. He would have to take a pretty massive pay cut (relatively speaking) to stay put.

I think it's fairer to say he isn't a 3 in our system (whatever that system is). If we had a center and power forward that could play well 15 feet from the basket and Josh could constantly cut then yes, he's a Small Forward. But in a system with a non penetrating point guard and isolation that requires the 3 to spot up from outside, he'd be a terrible fit.

If the team had say Gortat at Center and Bosh at PF and Deron Williams at the point, then Josh at SF would work well as both players can take their man away from the basket and the point guard can get penetration whenever he wants. But not in a system where the 3 has to play on the wings (like you see poor Marvin being forced to do on 80% of our offensive possessions).

Even in a perfect world, if you play Smoove at small forward, he'll be out on the perimeter most of the time on defense. Why the hell would we want our best help defender - hell probably the league's best help defender - spending most of his time far away from the basket?

Where am I disagreeing that w/l isn't taken into account by the coaches? I'm saying it should not count. I'm not denying coaches put players on good teams over more deserving players stuck on bad teams on the reserve list since the starters are just fan favorites (or happen to play in China hah!) I'm saying that is wrong and it should not be that way.

Those PER/EFF whatever else don't take into account the things I already mentioned. Where's the stat for establishing low post position and not being able to score due to a double team? Where is the stat for making a great screen? Where is the stat for being able to pass well out of the high post (or the low post) that two passes sets up a high field goal opportunity? Those things are vital in an offense that has a talented big man and Lopez does all of them well. He also is a better shot blocker than Horford and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that.

If you had to pick between the two on your team who would you rather have? Its like people saying they wouldn't want Al Jefferson or Devin Harris or Durant because their team win/loss is bad. That has nothing to do with their individual talent which is EXACTLY what the All star game should be about.

I disagree that Lopez is a better shot-blocker than Horford. I think they have equal abilities in that regard but Horford doesn't have to play help D as much because his teammates are better on-ball defenders than Lopez's are, and Josh is our primary help defender in terms of blocking shots. In short, Lopez has more opportunities to block shots, so I'm not surprised he took them. It's not unlike how Smoove's block numbers went down last year after Horford's block numbers ticked up (although now they're both back up as they've adjusted to each others' presence). That's what happens when you play for a better team - the individual players' stats usually are less than they otherwise would be.

In any case, I don't see YOU disagreeing that Horford is less foul-prone, a better rebounder, better on-ball defender, better passer, and better running the floor on the break. But hey, if you think the fact that Lopez is a better scorer for a worse team trumps all that, fire away. Good luck convincing people you're right.

I always pictured him as a clown car kind of guy with Team Dime piled in like sardines........I have no idea why I thought that. Actually, I pictured him being driven around in a big SUV with his posse with him.

I wonder if his entourage's expense accounts have been cut significantly since he came to Atlanta and got his new, smaller contract.

If you've watched the Nets play this year you will see why I think Lopez is the best EC center so far this year. He's almost the entire offense which means the opposing team is sending double to triple teams to his side and trying to stop him from setting up in the post. Getting Harris back will help him get easier looks and also some easy baskets thanks to transition and Harris being able to give him clear looks around the basket. I do not think Horf would be putting up the same kind of numbers if their positions were switched because quite honestly Horf isn't an offensive minded player. He doesn't really look for his own shot, I think exodus is correct in his criticisms of Horf's offensive game. Lopez doesn't have that problem. He's also been in the league a year less than Horf which gives him another edge in direct comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to complain if Horford is a third Hawk all star and Lopez is left in the cold. I do not approve of using a team's w/l record against a player whose stuck on bad teams. If anything being stuck on a bad team makes a single player stand out even more because the other team only has to worry about stopping maybe one or two guys. The years where JJ or JT were our only real offensive option should point out what I'm talking about.

I have watched the Nets play. And Horford is a better defender, a better rebounder, less foul-prone, a better passer, and just a more efficient player than Lopez. Lopez has a smoother offensive game, but Horford has lit it up a couple times this year and has consistently played more efficiently on both ends. Lopez is getting a lot of touches because the team sucks. His FG% is one of the league's worst among centers. And he gets a couple blocks on help D, but he also is playing frankly terrible on-ball D. Does he have a smoother post game on offense? Yes. But I seriously don't see any other area in which he has an edge over Horford.

As for Lopez being in the league a year less than Horford...so what? What does that have to do with who should make the All-Star team THIS year?

Sorry, but you seem to basing your assessment almost entirely on Lopez's scoring. And when you're talking about an 0-12 team, that's not much to hang your hat on.

You can't hold someone's team w/l record against an individual accomplishment. Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East, Horford is third. Keep in mind Lopez has been without his his all star point guard all season.

Uh....first off, yes you can hold it against them, unless they are playing transcendent basketball. That's why Kevin Durant hasn't made an All-Star team yet, and why JJ only got selected as an alternate after 2 guys got hurt when he was averaging 25ppg back in 06-07. Brook Lopez is playing very good, but far from transcendent, basketball. He's giving up lots of points to opposing centers and his stats aren't as impressive as you seem to think - he's below 18ppg and 9rpg. For a center, that's hardly incredible. Winning team isn't a prerequisite, nor should it be, but it absolutely is and should be a factor to consider. After all, Horford probably would be averaging more points and more blocks if he and Lopez switched places, since he'd get more touches and would be the #1 help defender. And conversely, Lopez would probably have much less gaudy stats if he were playing on a team whose only other offensive threat so far this year wasn't Chris Douglas-Roberts (which is why, btw, Harris's absense is a double-edged sword as far as Lopez's production).

Second and related, it's not like Lopez is clearly outplaying Horford even on paper. He's averaging 17.2 and 8.5. Horford is averaging 13.8 and 10.3. Lopez has more blocks, but Horford is also holding opposing centers to way fewer points than Lopez has been. Horford is also averaging 2 fewer minutes per game. No doubt Lopez is a stud, but I think Horford has played better this year, and for a MUCH better team.

I admit that I may have overreached when I said Horford was the "clear-cut" second best center in the East. But you think Lopez is clearly the second best center in the East? Good luck convincing people that you're right, and good luck convincing people that it's clear.

Josh if he keeps this up absolutely should be going to the AS game. He and JJ should be locks. Horford will be the odd man out because the two centers will probably be Howard and the Nets Lopez.

If the Nets are like 5-23 at the time the reserves are announced, I would be shocked if Lopez's name were even breathed in the same sentence as "All-Star." Assuming Dwight wins the fan vote, the only centers besides Horford who should even be in the discussion are the O'Neals and Bogut. Joakim Noah would normally be in contention considering that he is leading the NBA in rebounding, but he (like Battier) got shafted when the All-Star ballots were made. That will make it tough for the coaches to include him, since it would be too embarrassing for the Bulls and the NBA for a guy to be put on the team who didn't even make the ballot.

Right now, Horford is the clear-cut second-best center in the East (behind Howard), and probably the third-best center in the NBA (Howard and Bynum - assuming you're counting Duncan as a PF). Ain't that somethin'?

You'd like the Hawks offense to be less ISO heavy even if it meant they had the 10th best offense in the league instead of a top 3 offense? Seriously... based on the Hawks talent on offense where do you think with good coaching the Hawks should rank? I think the team is overperforming to be a top 3 offense and the coach should get credit for that

Right now, I agree. The concern that a lot of people have, though (myself included), is that once the playoffs arrive, teams will be able to break our offense down. It's much easier to scheme against an ISO offense than one that has a lot of ball movement.

If he continues to rebound and defend at this torrid pace than we can start talking about MVP with this guy.

MVP? He's been great, but come on, now. I'm sure there's plenty of people on this board who will argue he's not even the MVP of this team.

Niremetal... what exactly is giong on in your avatar?

It's Manu slapping the bat out of midair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT-F5QznjrA

Also I'll add that not considering Woodson is ridiculous. Now, I am as big a Woody hater as there is, but considering that freaking Mike Brown won the coach of the year last year, if we finish in the top 2 or 3 teams Woodson at least should be in the conversation.

Maybe they realized how idiotic it was to give COY to Brown.

I would be at every game if I was still living in the ATL. It's a shame people can't appreciate a good thing.

Same here.

Wow that is really cool! I wish they had that option for the broadband online version like MLB does for their online version. Right now I'd settle for it not lagging quite a bit after it's been playing for a while.

I just close and re-open it during timeouts. Seems to keep it from falling more than a few seconds behind.