Wretch

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Should we do the same with AJ?

 

 

You damn right. lol I've said this over and over again: everything is negotiable.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone that believes JJ is the one or that OO is going to be special.  They all have great qualities and we all see different things.  We all have our favorites and AJ is mine.  That doesn't mean I won't trade him or that I wouldn't dangle him.  I absolutely would if the deal shifts the landscape.  There are those who won't trade either of the other two (some probably all three).

I would say that I'm more willing to gamble on AJ than either of the other two and with a gun to my head, OO is the one that I'd trade.

7 hours ago, AHF said:

While I am always willing to listen to interest in any player, I would not be so eager to deal OO as you.  I don’t think there is superstar potential there but I think his value should continue to rise in the near term.  He has the tooos to be a standout defender in the modern game and his offense shows signs of expanding out to include better floor spacing.  That is a m quite valuable combination even without massive improvements outside of that.  It is also a blend of skills that isn’t easy to find.  So while I would listen and always want to “sell high” in a trade (ie win the trade) I would be reluctant to”dangle” him (which to me means actively trying to sell him for whatever best offer the market will support).

The part in bold is the only disagreement I have.  Actively sell, yes.  What ever the best offer is, absolutely not.  It may sound like I'm eager to trade him, but I'm not.  Now, we all have our favorites.  If I had to rank the three young guys always coming up in our conversations it would be AJ, JJ, OO for me.  The way people are on edge about OO's name coming up in anything, that's how I am with AJ. 

The difference is, I'm eager to deal ANYBODY, yes even AJ, if it means a blockbuster move that shifts the landscape.  If the best we can do for OO is a lateral move for equivalent talent at a different position, I'm not interested.  I would rather keep him and hope that he is indeed an all-world defender and grows into the kind of player that (as I've said over and over again) tends to be my favorite.  Worst case, if we're not (significantly) moving the needle by trading him, then I'd rather keep him and find that front court compliment that he would fit seamlessly with.

Ultimately, this is FAR more of an issue with holding onto players too long vs. "I don't like OO" or "I want to trade OO because his stock is high."  I maintain that timing of when deals are made is far more impactful in shaping a contender than simply making a deal because you can.  We are not a contender, so for me everything is on the table except for the one piece that I know is championship material.

7 hours ago, kg01 said:

I think he's saying all these positive signs are why you sell high?  I dunno.

I mean...that's how that works with things that fluctuate in value right?

13 hours ago, AHF said:

I'm not following this.  Why is this precisely why you dangle a young player?  I guess I am not seeing anything from that twitter post that would make you want to move OO more than you'd want to keep him.  (I.e., positive things like that are both why you want to keep a young player as well as why other teams would want to trade for him.)

It's interesting how we as fans tend to always default to polarized groups.  It's either you like player or you don't.  You think he's a terrible shooter or you don't.  In the case of making moves, this case, it's either you want to trade a player or you don't.

If it's unclear, when I say dangle I don't mean trade him. @kg01 is more or less correct in his assumption that I'm saying sell high.  That doesn't mean "trade him now!" (even though I've said those exact words lol). More than it means make the sale, it means I'd put him up for sale while his stock is high.  Which I'm sure he currently is, whether publicly or not, and I'm sure that price is indeed high.  If there were negative indicators to want to move OO, his stock would be lower and we wouldn't be able to move him.  Much like Collins.  

Where I'm more concerned though, as usual, is with the "expiration date" on player potential.  There are people who would hold onto him at all costs, and I don't know that I feel that way about anybody on this roster not named Trae.  That's how "receipt keepers" sound with any given trade scenario or even the mere mentioning of availability.

"Remember when you wanted to trade Okongwu!? Huh!  Here's the receipt."
"No, I was unsure about his peak value...but his value back then was high.  I wonder what we value we could have brought back for him."

On 8/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

I like OO but to the receipt keepers like this Twitter poster...this is precisely why you dangle a young player.

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Just understand that getting a 6 seed means another 1st round exit is likely.

Since 1984, the 6th seed has won 19 playoff series. That also means they have lost 41 playoff series.  That's a 31.7% win percentage.

So for everyone that wants us to stand pat, I need for all of you to fully accept what the coming season may bring us, for the sake of player development for OO, JJ, and AJ.

I'd hold on to AJ at pretty much all costs, but it's all negotiable as far as I'm concerned.  Anybody can get it for the right price.  I think what gets lost in a lot of the stats and sacred cows is the timing of when moves are made.  Consider the "going rate" for Steph in each of these photos:

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to say "AJ might be Steph Curry" or "JJ is going to be the next LeBron!"  The point isn't about player development, projections, or anything like that.  It's not just about young/inexperienced players either because timing affects the availability of established talent as well.  My point is just to illustrate how important timing is.  It's not just important to pull the trigger, but equally important to pull it at the right time.

Ultimately, I feel there is zero chance we run this team back without adding a long distance threat to the starting lineup.  We must address the shooting/spacing if we intend to do make any noise at all.  It's just too easy to clog the middle and force this team to shoot.  Teams figured this out two years ago and we absolutely have to make an adjustment.

Could it be that under Snyder's offense, that will look better?  Maybe, but I don't think we're going to run it back with a "maybe."  I think we want to maximize our ability to stretch the defense.  Given that he's a hot target while also being a spacing killer, I think Cap is gone.

Which also sucks because I absolutely love his game.

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think you can genuinely say "we" here... I'm not going to scroll through and pull receipts, but the narrative that he doesn't want to be here and won't re-sign is reinforced by many posters every single time Siakam comes up.  That and people not understanding future cap space and market value.  Obviously, I'm fine with people not thinking the fit is good or not wanting to overpay -- that's why I come to this discussion board, to have deeper-than-surface-level back and forth on players, fit, salary cap, etc.  But there's not been much discussion around Siakam, unfortunately, other than hand-waving him away because of "spacing" and "3P shooting".  And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this is another pass on Siakam post that doesn't mention or acknowledge defense.

Him not wanting to be here and him not re-signing are two different things.  The former is posturing strategy because he wants to get paid and because he wants to stay in Toronto.  I don't doubt either of those things.  Getting paid becomes a much larger concern once he's traded.  That's my point.

In regards to defense...  Maybe you and I haven't had the conversation, but I've been on that merry-go-round too many times the last couple of decades and I don't do those anymore.  ICYMI, I have an affinity for front court players like Okongwu (@Spud lol), Draymond, Charles Oakley, Ben Wallace, and Dennis Rodman.  My all time favorite C is Mutombo.  I love traditional PG's who facilitate on one end and disrupt the offense on the other - like DJM and Smitty (though he played SG for us).  Point is, I appreciate players who defend more so than anyone else and Pascal was on my wishlist for a LONG time because of it.

I do understand what it takes on both sides of the ball to contend and I have a far greater appreciation/affinity for defense.  However, there's a couple points that we'll have to agree to disagree on if your intention is to fire up a merry-go-round there.  One, as much as I care about defense, I don't subscribe to individual defensive quantifiers beyond the basics.  I think people oversell the value of player metrics in that regard.  Team defense, synergy, effort, matchups, and scheme are far more important factors.  Secondly, there's a whole conversation to be had about how offense and defense play into each other - and how awful our offense is when it counts.  This has been covered enough and Siakam's offensive bag doesn't cover the gap.  I would also not put any stock into our defense, team or otherwise, moving the needle enough to compensate.

Ultimately, I think you need one of DJM/Siakam and an elite shooter in place of the other.

16 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Most of the energy right now is basically just ppl saying “We didn’t want him anyways” because the Raptors have been skittish to take our (likely low ball) offer, so the interesting thing will be if hes traded here, and how quickly everyones narrative shifts around his fit into the roster, his talent level, and his willingness to re-sign.

I don't agree.  From the very beginning of this, there were two very polarized camps on Siakam.  I could be wrong, but it feels like the disinterested party was louder.  The energy you're referring to is there, but it's more or less the "pass on Siakam" group breathing a sigh of relief that we didn't overpay.  I'm one of those who isn't interested in Pascal.  It's an easy pass for me.  Though, if we were to get him, and it works, I'd be the first to say I was wrong.  There's more rational posters than me who don't want him and they'd do no less than the same.

Regarding the narratives, I think there is a solid consensus about his talent level.  There's no questioning that and he's actually been a favorite of mine for many years.  He and Trae would be amazing.  But I haven't thought about him since we landed Murray and he has been even more of an afterthought in light of our 3pt shooting woes. 

As it pertains to him re-signing, I think we all know this is just agent posturing in the silly season and is a nothing sandwich.  He's going to re-sign unless the season is a total disaster and we present him with some insulting numbers.  The latter being the most influential in his decision making...

If I'm being honest, the only thing that intrigues me is inserting Pascal (without giving up much) into a better Hawks offense that emphasizes spacing and ball movement.  Though I would much rather we go after a pure shooter in the starting lineup...even if they aren't all-star caliber.  

I voted Josh Smith...  Strangely enough, he's both overrated and underrated.  The casual audience overrates him because of his above the rim play and his detractors underrate him because they can't get past the very valid flaws - shooting, dribbling, BBIQ, and attitude.  Josh was a knucklehead for sure, but had some criminally underdeveloped and underutilized talents.

I've never been so happy to see my two least favorite colors again!
Hooray for the return of Ketchup and Mustard!

On 7/19/2023 at 11:49 AM, thecampster said:

I may need a bigger receipt drawer.

 

My receipt for the record.

I have almost zero interest in adding another starter with a some-timey 3pt shot, going into his 30s, on a rental that requires a max extension.  Cap and Hunter are too rich for my tastes on it.

I want KAT and/or a cold blooded sniper in the starting lineup.

I would only trade AJ in a blockbuster star package and to a lesser extent JJ...but we have to give to get.  So to me, everything is negotiable. Anybody can get it for the right price. 

Of all the young talent, OO is the bait I'd dangle. I'd be interested in seeing noteworthy offers out there for him.

20 hours ago, theheroatl said:

I suggest you deep dive into things. AJ had a top tier rookie season on Per 36.

Also, note his 2p%, FT %, AJ's turnover rate for a ROOKIE.

For example, please review these players...

Bogi

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2017-18	25	SAC	NBA	SG	78	53	2175	5.7	12.8	.446	2.1	5.4	.392	3.6	7.3	.485	1.7	2.0	.840	0.5	3.2	3.7	4.3	1.2	0.3	2.1	2.8	15.2

Deandre Hunter

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2019-20	22	ATL	NBA	SF	63	62	2018	5.0	12.2	.410	1.9	5.4	.355	3.1	6.8	.454	2.0	2.6	.764	0.8	4.3	5.1	2.0	0.8	0.3	1.8	3.2	13.9

Klay

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2011-12	21	GSW	NBA	SG	66	29	1608	7.1	16.1	.443	2.5	6.0	.414	4.6	10.1	.460	1.8	2.0	.868	0.5	3.1	3.6	3.0	1.1	0.4	2.3	3.5	18.5

SGA

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2018-19	20	LAC	NBA	PG	82	73	2174	5.6	11.9	.476	0.8	2.3	.367	4.8	9.6	.503	2.6	3.2	.800	0.9	2.9	3.8	4.5	1.6	0.7	2.3	2.9	14.7

Beal

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2012-13	19	WAS	NBA	SG	56	46	1745	5.8	14.2	.410	1.9	4.9	.386	3.9	9.3	.424	2.6	3.3	.786	0.9	3.5	4.4	2.8	1.0	0.6	1.9	2.3	16.1

AJ

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	Pos	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
2022-23	19	ATL	NBA	SF	72	12	1401	6.4	13.7	.465	2.6	6.7	.390	3.8	7.0	.536	1.1	1.2	.894	1.0	3.0	3.9	1.9	1.1	0.3	1.1	2.2	16.4

These are very comforting numbers.  I know that people want to boil this down to "will he/won't he", but player development is an inexact science.  You have to look at a players numbers along with how they play and when they score.  I have no idea if AJ is going to be the next great star.  Nobody knows these things.  He looks as promising as a rookie can and as far as 3pt shooting...he's an eye opener.

That said, AJ is not a player that I would just "include" in any deal.  I would trade AJ only in a package for a player with many years ahead of him, that we hope AJ's impact would mirror and preferably after a coach like Quin has had a good look at him.

I'll take him.

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

The GM has to thread the needle and it's not easy.  On here fans are demanding: 1. Spend the money 2. Keep young talent 3. Acquire more vets or stars with exceptional two-way efficiency.

*fixed for "DE-fanse"

34 minutes ago, Sothron said:

My personal favorite is Diesel using a gif with a girl eating popcorn while I was literally on my back in considerable pain in the bed. Love the kick them while they are down (literally) sense of brotherhood and community.

That being said the overwhelming positive response far outshines those that insist on being negative for negativity sake.

Wishing you well homie.  I don't think Diesel was kicking you tho. Same as me, we're just posting waiting gifs in anticipation.

The usual suspects are doing what they do however. 

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

I will love you all but I can’t see them draft 2 special players like these and flip them. @Wretch agrees with me and believes there aren’t any prospects out there like OO and AJ.  
 

 

57 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

When you are a superstar you get a lot of irrational haters. 

Kobe was selfish, Lebron complains/flops/etc.., Nique never passed or played defense. 

The list goes on and on.

I have to remind myself that we are a fanbase that is not used to stardom or attention. We have always had haters, but never the players to shut them up.

Trae shuts haters up. Over and over again. The best thing his fans can do is just support him, support the team, and watch him continue to cook. Enjoy the ride, because we know too well what it’s like NOT to have a box office player in Atlanta. By the sounds of it, his haters prefer those dark times over what we have now.

The kid is flawed. So what. Look in the mirror. Ain’t none of us perfect. 

He aint out here embarrassing us like Ja. He not out here lazy like Zion. He ain’t partying all offseason like Harden. He not twitter trolling like Embiid. He isn’t in the headlines like Kyrie. And he isn’t asking for trades like half the stars in this league.

The kid is quiet off the court, a true hooper and gym rat. A husband and father for crying out loud. And he LOVES Atlanta.

If that ain’t enough for you to at least pull for him to continue to grow and lead this team, I don’t know what is. Some of yal are literally waiting for MJ to come walking through that door, and even then you would cry about his cigar and gambling habit.

Sheesh, I can’t with some people lol

This is a fantastic post.  Honestly, I just scroll over certain people when they post.  There's no point in reading it.  Even if we win, it's going to be Quinn that got things under control or DJM who is carrying Trae or some other nonsense.  It's just pure contrarian grandstanding and nothing more IMO.