thecampster

3 more guys...Detroit, Cleveland, Washington. I'll do the last of the group when done.

Almost there guys.....Let's get the last 5 done...if you've done one and you're familiar with one of the last 5 go ahead and do one more.....I'm spreading it out to avoid individual bias...I'm doing something with this I swear.

Still need from the East

Indiana, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland

Washington.

From the west we have the Jazz and Blazers, but I wanna wait before doing the west.

I'm gonna do something with this, I swear.

Still need from the East

Indiana, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Toronto

Boston, New Jersey, New York, Orlando, Philadelphia and Washington.

If you wanna do the west o.k. but do an east too so we can compare the results in conference.

We all agree it's the dead season. So for all of us this constant trade JT, Screw DD, let's ride Ira's jock talk is redundant.

So here's my challenge. Let's logically and without bias compare the Hawks individually to each team in the league. Each squawker take a team you're rather familiar with and break them down against our Hawks. I grew up in Chi-town so I'll take the bulls (plus it's easy to homer there). In your subsequent messages, just list the team in the subject and try to follow my format.

PG - Williams .vs Terry ADV Terry. Williams is raw and developing. Still has something to prove in the NBA. Minor advantage Terry.

SG - Rose .vs Johson or Glover. ADV Rose. Johnson is probably my favorite player on the hawks, but I'm not blind.

SF - Eddie or Marshall .vs Glenn. ADV GRob. could be a different SF here instead of Eddie Robinson like Donyell but it doesn't matter. There's only 5 or 6 small forwards even in GDawg's League.

PF - Chandler .vs Sar. ADV SAR. One day, Chandler might be one of the best big men in the league...not this year.

C - Curry .vs Ratliff. ADV Hawks. Very similar production wise. Bigger upside and bigger body with Curry but Ratliff is a better defender now. Minor Advantage Hawks.

Bench - I'd typically list them, but Chicago's bench is suspect...ATL - DD, Glover, IRA/CC, Hendu and Nazr. No group coming from their bench matches that.

Coaching - I like Lon. He gets alot out of his players and isn't afraid to make a change. He's not intimidated by the high priced athelete, but I prefer Cartwright. He's been in the trenches as a warrior. Stars sells tickets, warriors win games. He's got a fantastic basketball mind.

I do like our assistants better.

Hawks win 5-2. Given this number, I say we have a 5 in 7 chance of beating them on any given night.

NOW, Who's next. What other team do you know and could compare the Hawks to?

You guys are killing me with the IRa talk. In 30 minutes a game, IRA gave up 8 points and 5 rebounds on an injury depleted team.

In only 18 minutes a game, Chris gave us 7.6 points and 3.6 rebounds. Chris Crawford dang near gave us more, playing SF in less 40% less time. He's a better passer and we're already set at the Shooting Guard.

We have DD, JT, Email, Dion and DJ to play the 1-2. We don't need another SG which is what IRA is. AS a small Forward, a healthy Crawford is a better defender...yes better and far superior offensive player. Chris can take it to the rack and shoot. Chris is not only the backup, but IF I told you we would get a 15 - 18 minutes backup this year who would give up 8 points and 4 boards at the small forward spot, most of you would be o.k. with that.

Secondly, Ira would not beat out Johnson or Glover for the 2. Glover is too strong and Johnson too tall. Both cause matchup problems for opposing shooting guards on the offensive end. Our whole goal as an offensive squad this year is to make defenses pick their poison. Double JT or GRob and leave a capable player in Johnson or Glover alone to cut to the basket. Double SAR and leave either GRob or Theo alone. Putting Ira on the floor on the offensive end stagnates our offense. Some on this board tried to blame the lower scoring in the second half on Terry...not true. Having Ira on the floor gave opposing defenses room to double and rotate.

Ira may be able to front 6-5 guards as well as anyone but his game is incomplete and his presence isn't needed....We need another big body to throw in for fouls and clog up the middle and that's it. We have 4 players on the roster right now who can play the 3. GRob, DJ, Dion, CC.

We have 2 glorified PF's playing the Center in Ratliff and Mohammed. A banger to take the steam out of the big boys in small spurts would be golden. That's Ewing, Christopherson...Hell Conkak would do...Just another big body off the bench for fouls....I'd take Bowdler back if he'd come...we don't have enough size on the roster to compete with the west but we have enough of everything else to win the east.

In a recent Shareef argument between Hotlanta and Diesel I sided heavily with Diesel...but here again I go confusing everyone. Hotlanta is dead on here and Diesel has issues.

O.k. the boy can pass but the NBA is about spacing. dribbling to a spot with space to create lanes to pass and drive. If there was ever a way to break down basketball, this is it. Penetrate, create space, shoot or pass. 5 Players doing it at once with the most important of the 5 being the point guard.

Pure Basketball at it's best is just that. 5 people creating a little space in the passing, driving lanes by moving their bodies and getting to a spot on the floor first. That's it.

Now how do you do this. Athleticism. Terry has it, Dickau doesn't. IF you could put Dickau's vision in Terry's body you'd be perfect. But to be an effective point guard in this league, you've got to be able to beat the opposing pg off the dribble. Dan can't or at least won't be able to for a while. There is a huge difference in the college game to the pros.

The PGs are all quick...super quick and bigger. They take away space and lot's of it. Ask Scoonie Penn who was the man off the dribble in College. He was considered an excellent college point guard. But once he got to the NBA he was too short and too slow after the first move to create real space...that's why he's played in Europe and not the states.

Dickau looked good in summer leagues, but in the milwaukee game, you may have noticed he couldn't shake the defensive minded backup point guard for Milwaukee. That will be the norm in the NBA. He isn't ready and won't be any time soon. He'll be a backup and a decent one at that...but never a real starter..Never.

JT on the other hand can beat most NBA points off the dribble. Improved court vision will come. His scoring will go down a little (to about 15 -17 a game) as he passes more but his assist will eventually push 9-11 a game. The real beneficiary of this...Demarr Johnson. The point always draws the 2 in Double teams leaving Johnson open..alot. He'll also create tons of backside cuts for Demarr.

You'll see SAR around 21-23 a game with Terry at the point. GRob at 19-20. Ratliff at 10-12 and Terry himself at 16 ish a game...but you'll see Demarr flourish at 12-14 a game and getting better as the season rolls on.

This team is designed for success as is.

I guess I was wrong when I told him in the football league my 14 year old wanted to beat him up for all the trouble he created in there. By the looks of him I think my 9 year old could take him.

Personally, Vancouver was horrible. Fact that SAR showed up to play night in and night out speaks volumes for him.

I hate player hatin. I really do. We could sit and pick apart anyone really. Hell, we could diss Kobe for the time Demarr shut him down but that'd be insane.

Fact is that Reef is an all around player.

If SAR was playing Small Forward exclusively in Vancouver, who played the Power Forward and Center?

I highly doubt you're blaming Vancouver's defensive problems solely on SAR.

But to counter your ridiculous claim of 110 points per game...

Here are there team stats

00-01 season Griz 91.7 OPP 97.5

99-00 season Griz 93.9 Opp 99.5

Now, the startin lineup for both squads.

C - Big Country

PF - Othella Harrington

SF - SAR

SG - Dickerson

PG - Bibby

Now there's a defensive stallwort of a Team. Shaq turns, fakes...ooooooohhhhhhhh rejected by Big Country. I don't think so. Malone goes middle...Harrington cuts him off...Please. Payton drives the lane...stripped by Bibby...Laughable. Kobe shoots again....short..I think Dickerson got a piece of that...NOT. You're blaming this squad giving up 99 a game on Shareef...you've got to be kidding me.

Now I'm sure Diesel has a trade worked out in his brain somewhere for Harrington (joke dude, don't give Babs any ideas, we all know he reads this board for inspiration) but would you trot that lineup out to stop Orlando....me neither.

In short Hotlanta, I keep throwing numbers and you keep throwing insults. Why not put a little thought into it before you claim things like SAR is the source of all the bad defense ever played in Vancouver.

SAR is a stud. A top 25 NBA'er. An Eastern Conference allstar and you'll be the first to ride his jock when he's throwing down on Jermaine O'neal in the second round of the playoffs. Present facts with numbers to back them up and quit throwing out ridiculous numbers like 110 pts a game.

Let's try this again. He never said/meant top ten player in the NBA....he said/meant top 10 Power Forward.

Neither am I contending he's a top ten player in the league. But he might be close to a top ten Forward not just power forward. We're not the ones comparing him wrong, you are.

You're comparing him to 4/5 players. Reef is a 3/4. Duncan/KG...4/5's. But 9 boards for a 3/4 is exceptional.

In the 5 main statiscal categories (reb, pts, st, bl and assist), he ranks

18th, 20th, 36th, 46th and 67th.

Now realizing there are 29 teams out there (a total of 145 starting position players) and that 2 of these categories are almost exclusive to guards (steals/assists) and 1 to Centers (blocks) you start to marvel at the complete player. In rebounds and points he is 18 - 20th. in Steals a category mostly for guards of which there are 58 starting guards in the NBA he's 36th. Blocks for centers, of which there are 29 starters, he ranks 46...so out of the 116 starters left he's 17th. IN assists with once again 58 starting guards, he's 67th or about 9th out of the 87 players left...if you have a kernal of basketball sense realize his importance.

No, he isn't top 10 all around in the NBA, but he is top 25. I challenge you to find 25 better all around players. Rank the top 25 NBA'ers you can think of and I'll pick my impression of the worst five from that group to compare him to. Till then quick ripping on SAR.

he means a top 10 power forward...not top ten player...geeshhh.

and SAR is a top 10 power forward. Arguably but not definately the best PF in the east.

How does he not get 10 boards...easy...no center to help ever. It's him against 2 on most boards. Being the main or 2nd option on offense keeps the rebound numbers down. Playing on teams with bad exterior defenses keep rebounds down. Made jumpers means no rebound. Did you see how ridiculously high Deke's rebound numbers were when they played with Mookie's atlanta. He was always a quality rebounder, but with bad jump shots flying all over the place, defensive rebound numbers flourish. Deke went up from 11.5 rebounds a game in his first 3 seasons in Atlanta to 14.1 the last 2 years. why? did he get better overnight...no!!!..better perimeter defense.

Now look at the Hawks perimeter D last year or better yet while SAR was in Vancouver. My guess is that with Ratliff commanding more attention, less low post double teams and DJ at the two and Terry moved to the 1 providing better perimeter D, He should go up to about 11 boards a game....or maybe I'm wrong.

But since when was 9 rebounds a game bad for a PF...that's pretty darn good isn't it. He's rated 18th in the league in Rebounds/game. 16th among forwards. 18th among forwards for assists/game (Most are SF on the list). 11th among forwards in Points. 11th in Assists. 21st in blocks.

He does have the 4th worst turnover number, but the 3 worse than him are Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Antoine Walker, and the 2 with a couple turnovers less are Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. That's pretty darn good company to be in. Now remember these numbers are for all forwards both power and Small and includes tweener Centers and Guards like vince Carter and Jermaine Oneal.

So to recap.

among forwards and tweeners

11th in points

16th in rebounds

18th in assists

11th in steals

21st in blocks

against the entire league

20th in points (95.4 percentile - or better than 95.4 % of NBA players)

18th in rebounds (95.9 percentile)

67th in assists (84.9)(as a power forward this is crazy)

36th in steals (91.9)(once again nuts for a PF)

46th in blocks (89.6)

This is out of 444 players who got on the floor in the NBA last year.

and we've eliminated the bad handles turnover argument unless you want to drop Duncan, Malone and Garnett too.

So how is he not a top 10 PF or maybe even all around Forward?

actually We're not new. Most of these guys played together last fall. DD played with DG, DJ and Theo in the Summer league. Last fall everyone saw Ratliff from the beginning.

I think that the most important part to the early Gel is SAR's voluntary workouts.

Everyone's attending most of the workouts and that will go along way toward chemistry on the court.

I guess this is why I disagree so Hotly with Hotlanta about SAR not being a winner. Winning is an attitude about commitment. MJ, Bird, Magic all had that attitude. MJ would stay after practice most days and shoot jumper after jumper. Bird 100 freethrows after every practice. Magic, voluntary workouts almost every season. These players never sat on success, they constantly worked. They were committed to winning.

SAR is showing that same commitment to winning. SAR doesn't have to workout. He scores more points than anyone on the team...he's gonna get a huge check regardless of whether or not he practices in the offseason. But what does he do. He not only commits himself to offseason work but challenges his team mates to do the same. He takes control and tells everyone to come to the workouts. That he won't be a loser anymore. These workouts will gel this team much quicker than most people think.

Missing from last years squad are Hanno, Bowdler, Kukoc, Vaugn...only Vaugn was a constant in the rotation with any purpose. The only additions are DD, GROB and the injured players. Little gel needed. I say a healthy Hawks team

I firmly agree. Hell if you want to get crazy and if he gets his weight under control lineup like this

JT

Dog

Reef

Kemp

Theo

Bring DD, DG, DJ, Alan, Nazr off the bench.

Try handling those 3 down low. That's a big freaking team and who'd handle Reef at the 3. Don't know if Glen Robinson could handle the 2 spot but it'd be fun finding out.

It gives you CC and Email as bench warmer towel boys. Most teams would take that.

Just ask Kemp to Rebound and put back.

But now that I said I agree let's remember the 2 big concerns...his weight and a past drug problem. If either got in the way it'd kill team chemistry.

In response to:

"Allen is better than Reef.He actually gets is team to the playoffs instead of 30 wins"

With Allen on the floor, the bucks lost 7 of their last 10 games to miss the playoffs.

IF he so clutch in the 4th, then what's up with this artical from yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recaps/20020412/milind.html

This is from the next to last loss of the year for the bucks that would've pushed them to the playoffs.

"INDIANAPOLIS (TICKER) -- If the Milwaukee Bucks miss the playoffs, they may look back to the night sharpshooter Ray Allen missed a pair of layups."

oops.

I hate agreeing with Diesel. I truly don't like trading, but prefer building thru the draft and coaching...but he's plain right here. Reef is a top 10 PF in this league. 21/9 and 3. You can't argue that and he did it while the object of constant double teams and hard fouls. You don't trade that for a shooting guard who can't play "D". Never ever ever trade size....ever.

You know for as awful as you say Shareef is as an athlete, he must be one hell of an over acheiver to average

21 points, 9 boards and 3 assists for your career.

coach in me. I don't see Demarr spotting up as much as you all see it and frankly, I see the offense differently than most. Demarr will be our combo player. Yes he'll spot up, but he'll be being fed by the backdoor screen alot. The mid lane cut and be expected to drive baseline and rotate the ball out.

DeMarr found the 3 so much from the wings last year because he was playing the SF. He was trying to draw the defending SF out of the play to free up the feed and drive lanes. GDawg now does this more effectively.

I see Theo posting weakside, SAR posting strong side (Right). I see JT bringing the ball up and veering to the right of the circle. I see Glen on the right in the corner. DJ is high left. In this set, the best 3 defenders on the other squad are all right side (Guarding SAR, GDawg and JT). Further more, the opposing center is leaning to offer help. JT drifts right with a slow pg dribble. He looks like he's going to take the other pg to the rack drawing in the "D". DJ cuts to the middle of the lane and receives the pass. Either DJ takes it to the hole or the opposing center comes front to challenge. DJ then drops the pass to Ratliff for the easy Lay.

This play works, because the player guarding DJ this year will be smaller...much smaller. It'll be the SG. The SF will have to guard Gdawg or he'll just shoot over every SG in the league. This gives DJ a tremendous size advantage should he post or cut.

In the above play, should the "D" read it properly, the SF would have cheated center. Dj would stop short catching the cut pass around the charity strip and kick to the corner to GDawg who can shoot the jumper or dump in the post to Shareef or rotate back to JT. There are 4 players on this squad who can get to the front of the rim on their own (all but Theo). Although DJ seemed clumsy at times doing so last year, he was also drawing the SF with the longer arms defensively and being asked to drive not cut.

This yields tons of freethrows a game and garbage baskets (extra shots per game).

So I see the breakdown as such.

Theo 12ppg, 5-10 FG, 2-3 FT. (10+2=12)

Sar 20ppg, 8-17 FG, 4-5 FT. (16+4=20)

GDawg 20ppg, 6-13 FG, 2-5 3pt, 2-3 FT. (12+6+2=20)

DJ 13ppg, 3-7 FG, 2-5 3pt, 1-2 FT. (6+6+1=13)

JT 17ppg, 4-10 FG, 2-6 3pt, 3-4FT. (8+6+3=17) - 8 apg.

Bench 23 ppg, 7-16 FG, 3-8 3pt (14+9=23).

This adds to 23+20+20+17+12+13 = 105ppg.

I think not only is this highly reasonable. But with Hendu, DD, Dion and Nazr as the bench players that's less than 6 points a piece for each. Highly unlikely. So although theses numbers may be a little off, they aren't by much. This year will be fun.

Uhm no, they're real rough. Sound fake at times...I was just commenting on Milwaukee commiting a cardinal sin. Never trade within your division...especially if the player your dealing makes your opponent stronger. Just plain dumb. But hey, our gain.

If any of this is misstyped, please forgive me but I can't stop laughing after reading that set of posts. I wonder if Milwaukee realizes they not only traded away the 17th best scorer in the league (based on last year's stats) but traded him to a division rival.

Bob Rathman:

Terry drives left, quick dish to Sar out to DJ rotated back to the corner for a three....oh my goodness 34 for GRob. Stinger can you see the look on George Karl's face.

Stinger:

I sure can Bob...Ha Ha ha.

Bob Rathman:

Glen Robinson is lighting up here in the 3rd quarter. He might drop 50 on these guys before the nights up. He's obviously got a vendetta. I mean what were these guys thinking trading him to a team in their own division. A team they'd have to play 5 times a year.

Stinger:

Maybe Karl wasn't thinking Bob...Ha ha ha.

I didn't think they'd take it that way though. I knew they needed a center and in one of my runs thru trade checker I looked at Dion/Toni/1st for Dog and said...no, they want a center...this is a major coup. I wasn't really sure if Dion, Nazr and Hendu was enough. This guy is a stud. And even though some suggested he was too old, he's 10 years younger than Jordan and 8 younger than Pippen. He's got tons left in the tank.

The only question mark here is Lon's commitment to Demarr. With Robinson on the floor, the only spot open is the 2 guard and you'd have to hope that with Glen on the floor they'd want a defensive stopper at 2 or 4. SAR is not a stopper so the 2 has to be.

This team is reminding me a little of San Antonio right now. the 1,2,3 can all shoot the 3. So the floor will get spread out. The Power Forward is a ton to handle 1 on 1 and the center is a defensive force. No, I'm not comparing SAR and Theo to Duncan and the admiral but the team makeup and even bench players are very similar. To be honest, even though the spurs are better (though not by much) at the 4 and 5, I'd have to say we're much better at the point and SF. This team....if healthy is scary.

Here's the topic I started on July 8th. Honestly, I was giving up too much in Nazr, glover and hendu but I was also trying to find a way to keep haslem.

I still like this trade guys. Especially if we keep JT and keep him at the point and put Demarr at the 2 permanently. Let Glover back up the 2 and 3 and this is great.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....o=31&fpart=

Ira,Strick,Hanno,Cal,JV gone will this affect us?* Oh my god, yes~! It's great.

I'm a firm believer in stats/game. Most people say...well he only scored 3 ppg but he also played 10 minutes a game or if given 30 minutes, 9 ppg. So let's compare this years newly departed to last years casualties and base it on what they did per 48 minutes. Comparing points, rebounds, assists, steals and turnovers. Basing solely on last year's stats and not best season. (the "f" stands for full as in points per full game ppfg). Stats are per 48 minutes.

Ratliff vs. Bowdler

15.3 ppfg, 9.3 rpfg, .53 apfg, .58 spfg, 4.1 topfg, 4.69 Blocks.

.vs

9.35 ppfg, 9.4 rpfg, .85 apfg, 1.5 spfg, .89 topfg, 1.23 Blocks.

Now given this wasn't Ratliff's best season (only 3 games) and his numbers from Philly were much higher. But safe to say, that Ratliff's 6 more points and 3.46 blocks makes Ratliff a clear winner here despite turnovers.

Hendu vs. Hanno

16.28 ppfg, 10.95 rpfg, 1.18 apfg, 1.2 spfg, 2.4 topfg.

vs.

13.79 ppfg, 9.48 rpfg, 1.72 apfg, .69 spfg, 2.44 topfg.

except for 2.5 ppg and 1.5 rpg better for Henderson, they are identical. So henderson wins.

Toni vs. Strickland

18.78 ppfg, 7.02 rpfg, 6.83 apfg, 1.54 spfg, 2.28 topfg.

vs.

15.21 ppfg, 9.46 rpfg, 1.35 apfg, 1.39 spfg, 2.07 topfg.

although he rebounds a little less, it seems obvious that with 3.57 more ppg and 5.48 apg, Toni is more productive.

Crawford vs. IRA

19.51 ppfg, 9.24 rpfg, 1.8 apfg, 0.74 spfg, 3.67 topfg.

vs.

12.67 ppfg, 8.40rpfg., 1.7 apfg, 1.43 spfg, 1.85 topfg.

Crawford turns the ball over nearly 2 times more a game and IRA gets 3/4 of a steal more but Chris goes for 6.84 more points and . 84 more boards. slight edge Chris.

Dion vs. Vaughn

20.38 ppfg, 7.10 rpfg, 3.44 apfg, 1.88 spfg, 3.16 topfg.

vs.

14.02 ppfg, 4.25 rpfg, 9.13 apfg, 1.68 spfg, 2.91 topfg.

I'd call this a tossup with Dion scoring more and rebounding more but vaughn with a ton more assists. That said, Dion's size makes for better overall defense.

The totals.

The wounded

vs.

the replacements

90.25 ppg, 43.61 rpg, 13.78 apg, 5.21 spg, 15.61 topg.

vs.

65.04 ppg, 40.99 rpg, 14.75 apg, 5.69 spg, 10.16 topg.

so

25.21 ppg, 2.62 rpg, -.97 apg, -.48 spg, 5.45 topg.

I'd say we can afford to lose the others even with 5 more turnovers. Each steal, rebound and turnover are worth 1 point (since with 3 pointers, 40% fg% and freethrows, most teams average around 1 point per possesion and assists are worth 2. So the points add up like this.

25.21 + 2.62 + (-1.94) + (-.48) + (-5.45) = ppg lost to injuries. That's a difference of 19.96 ppg.

Now the hawks lost 40 games by 20 points or less. So assuming the Hawks had these players all season and assuming the ppg changes would have changed the outcome of half of these games. That's 20 wins. Now I might be exaggerting the difference or I might not...but injuries kill seasons....Just ask sacramento if they would have liked to have had Pedra during the Lakers series. So the Hawks in my formula would have had 53 wins and 29 losses instead of 33 and 49 and the top seed in the EAST.

The only problem here is DD is actually switching with JV so the assist number is skewed a little. but so what. This is a small vision of what the injuries cost us last year. Instead of Bowdler as the backup and Mohammed as the starter, we'd have had Ratliff start and Mohammed backup...that is where the numbers come from. So this shows the "Total cost of player over 48 minutes".

I hope this comes out o.k.

put a family photo on my own webspace so I could link to it.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/atl/d/a/...on%20family.jpg

She ain't that bad...is she?

The question marks are Leon Smith. He's under contract and they haven't given up on him yet (though it ain't looking good).

I'd do that trade in a New York minute and so would the Knicks, but I don't think Dallas would....someone would have to send them a future pick.

c'mon buddy, this is your chance. you signed up yet. you've obviously got tons of time on your hands here. prove you are wise beyond your years. Play fantasy football with real Hawks fans. If the other hawks fans are doing it, you should be too.

just 2 spots left.

hey, I did my part....I referred "bulldogs"