thecampster

26 minutes ago, KB21 said:

When Edey goes in the 20s, it’s going to be humorous to me watching the Edey fanboys explain why it happened.  

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2024-nba-draft-combine-reed-sheppard-zach-edey-among-biggest-stock-risers/

The above is exactly why teams miss on players.

Narratives stick due to group think.

48 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That would mean Landry is stupid.  Hey, let’s move down a take a player who doesn’t fit the modern game.  

KB21: he's slow, not a modern NBA big.

Supes: provides new take.

KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big.

Camp: shows evidence that's not true.

KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big.

@NBASupes: provides video evidence

@thecampster: provides statistical data. 2 time college player of the year. Led his team to the national championship game. Posted 24/12 in back to back seasons. No one else from that Purdue team will play after college, even overseas.

@KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big

Supes: gets frustrated, offers long post full of wild opinions and quotes from coaches.

KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big.

Camp, Supes, Others: here is the combine info showing he's faster, more agile than almost all the other bigs. Invalidating that argument, please say something else.

KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big

Supes: here's a video showing his pro day providing evidence he can hit the 3, move in space, put the ball on the floor, pass and guard in space.

KB21: repeats he's slow, not a modern NBA big

Camp: provides cap evidence of the value of trading down to take Edey.

Camp: provides the weakness evaluations from draft sites on the other players mentioned.

Camp: shows evidence the draft is a crap shoot, no one in this class is worth a number 1 pick, and suggests highest floor player.

Supes: provides buzz around the league the evals might be wrong, the mocks are probably wrong and the narrative is changing on Edey.

KB21: but he's slow, not a modern NBA big, I win!

Saving everyone from reading the nearly 900 posts now in this thread.

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Go do a poll and you'll see the fan base collectively isn't entertaining this idea.  There are a few voices advocating for Edey or Holland or someone else but collectively this is a landslide.

And I believe we're in a take receipts and revisit this in 2 years scenario. I don't see anyone in this class worth the #1 pick in any other year's draft so the question for me is to trade down and take your chance with the seemingly most impactful player at that level.  

there is a proposal out there about trading 1, clint to San Antonio (pass through) for #8 and other future firsts (1 is our pick back). I'd consider that and take Edey at 8.

The 1st year salary commitment for the #1 pick this year is $10.5 million. I'm not sure I can commit that salary to a player who is an obvious crap shoot. If you have to, the highest floor to me is Edey. I have to look at it like that. There is no Antman, no Luka, no Wemby, no Embiid in this year's draft. There is no sure thing. I'm not sure I can drop $10.5 million on Sarr as a 3rd string center and hope he develops.

 

49 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Who wrote that?  

(3) Alex Sarr: The (un)disputed Number One (noceilingsnba.com)

 

 

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/alexandre-sarr/#:~:text=Plays with excellent aggressiveness …,and has defensive anchor potential …

Trying to be consistent. Its the site I've used with each comparison.

I would like to point out a few things. The writer of the article you linked above is a scout for FIBA. He will have international bias. The same site (noceilingsnba.com) is very amateurish in design and their latest mock has Edey dropping all the way to the Celtics at 30. There is no shot in hell that happens. It doesn't look like a very credible site, both in take and feel.

30 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I like Edey but it would be nuts to take him #1 especially with Sarr right there. 

52 minutes ago, deester11 said:

And if I'm the Hawks, fear of Edey at 1 wouldn't let me take him.  The vehemently argumentative takes for him at one are interesting. He went from early second round, to late first, to lottery and now some want him at one? Interesting.  

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

A 10 mpg sub with the top pick.  Excellent choice.  
 

It has nothing to do with fear.  It has everything to do with him not being a modern big.  

Weaknesses profile on Sarr

Weaknesses: Solid wiry strength, but appears that he will never be an imposing athlete from a strength standpoint … Questionable whether he develops into a high level scorer at the NBA level … While he does take threes, he doesn’t make many … Consistently a sub-30% three point shooter. The hope is that he develops in this area and make it a more reliable part of his game, given his potential as a face-up threat … His release from three looks decent, albeit very slow (in setting his feet and releasing the ball)… So far is much further along defensively than offensively… Has real potential as a defensive anchor — is he vocal enough and does he have the smarts to read an offense and lead his defense like a free safety?… Not currently a standout passer nor playmaker by any means… While he can get to the rim and finish, he can be out of control when stopping short of the rim for a pull up jumper, it does not look clean and does not get the best results …

Reminder, he was all second team in the G-League. He wasn't 1st team G-League but 2nd.  That is not a top 5 pick in anyone's book, more or less the #1 overall pick.  There are serious concerns in his weaknesses. He looks to be very average on offense with "potential" on defense but also not a sure thing.

I've taken a bit of time to formulate how to say this. You cannot base this pick on fear. The last 2 seasons, Zach Edey has been the best player in the country. Best on offense by a wide margin, top 10% in defensive impact (not necessarily raw numbers). He is the logical pick in the absent a true #1 pick consensus.

You can't let fear of him being a bust sway you here. Instead, if he pans out (20/10 player by year 3), you will always be judged if you let a franchise center get away because you were afraid to pick him. Because you listened to what the talent evaluators said.

2005, the talent evaluators all said that Marvin Williams was a can't miss talent and should go number 1 overall. there were questions about Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Andrew Bynum.  Paul too short, Williams too slow me first type player, Bynum - too many unknowns, too many injuries.  But Marvin Williams was sure to be an all-star capable player with a 10+ year career who does all the little things you need to win a championship.  Fear of taking Paul or Bynum or Williams left us taking the sure thing in duck butt. 

You cannot draft by fear and you cannot trust the so called expert evaluators.

If I'm the Hawks I'm trading down but staying in the top 10 and I'm taking Edey. If I can't trade down, I'm still taking Edey.

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Dude...his draft profile (how those evaluators saw him at the time) was worse than Edey's.  You've said repeatedly NBA evaluators but those guys are stupendously wrong and often....see their evaluations on Mo Bamba vs Jokic

 

 

Yes, your highly touted expert evaluators put him that much higher than Jokic.

 

These jokers (pun intended) are wrong all the time (as are we).  But dude you can't lay your entire case on your highly slanted eye test and random evaluators, just as I can't lay all my cards on stats and size but there comes a point where you have to say.....you know what, he's such a freak, I could be wrong.  There are going to be a number of teams that regret not grabbing him. 10 years ago, he would have been the consensus #1 overall pick without question. The only thing stopping that today is the love affair with the 3 ball.  If Gobert isn't exposed in the playoffs a few years ago guarding the 3 point line a few years ago, I think he'd still be the consensus top pick.

 

But points per possession has got to account for something and the guy is a near guaranteed bucket and rebound. That still matters, especially in the playoffs where the halfcourt game becomes even more important.

Some additional nonsense for you from the eggsperts

Yep, Cole Anthony was supposed to be just as good as Steph Curry. Jarrett Culver should have been better than both and Andrew Wiggins should have been better than all of them.

15 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That would be relevant only if Edey actually had the ability Joker has.  He doesn’t, and he’s a far worse athlete.  

Dude...his draft profile (how those evaluators saw him at the time) was worse than Edey's.  You've said repeatedly NBA evaluators but those guys are stupendously wrong and often....see their evaluations on Mo Bamba vs Jokic

Yes, your highly touted expert evaluators put him that much higher than Jokic.

These jokers (pun intended) are wrong all the time (as are we).  But dude you can't lay your entire case on your highly slanted eye test and random evaluators, just as I can't lay all my cards on stats and size but there comes a point where you have to say.....you know what, he's such a freak, I could be wrong.  There are going to be a number of teams that regret not grabbing him. 10 years ago, he would have been the consensus #1 overall pick without question. The only thing stopping that today is the love affair with the 3 ball.  If Gobert isn't exposed in the playoffs a few years ago guarding the 3 point line a few years ago, I think he'd still be the consensus top pick.

But points per possession has got to account for something and the guy is a near guaranteed bucket and rebound. That still matters, especially in the playoffs where the halfcourt game becomes even more important.

20 hours ago, KB21 said:

So essentially every credible talent evaluator is wrong about Edey.  Got it.  

You mean credible talent evaluators that wrote this draft profile on Nikola Jokic that aided in him dropping to a 2nd round pick?

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/nikola-jokic/

"Weaknesses: An average athlete lacking great speed and leaping ability … Foot speed is a big liability. He may struggle to stay in front of NBA athletes at the center position … Needs to improve as a post player, gain strength and develop a repertoire of back to the basket moves … Defense is a real weakness at this point due to lack of lateral speed and lack of strength. His length is a big plus, but he’ll need to continue to work on becoming stronger and learn to anticipate in order to overcome his lack of quickness … Despite being a younger guy, his upside appears limited by his lack of explosiveness and foot speed …"

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I do think these numbers may hurt Clingan in the draft.  He got smoked by all of these guys in all of these drills whic raises some flags for Donovan.  Wouldn't be surprised if he dropped past where I was expecting him to go because of this unless he steps it up in workouts.

So here's where I contradict myself. Yes he performed poorly against the competition but his fundamentals, specifically his positioning, is solid and at his size, he'll be fine. Size wize, Clingan is pretty much Lopez. With good footwork, that will help him. He'll still go top ten.

But the narrative on Edey just isn't correct. This is just one more proof of that and why the stats make more sense now.

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Pretty easy.  It's very clear that they all move much better than he does on the court.  It doesn't take someone with 20/20 vision to see that.  Sarr is the fastest 7-footer I have ever seen.  It's obvious on tape that he moves better, is more agile, changes direction better, has more vertical pop...etc.  

I saw Edey's run.  He runs like the clunky f***er he is on the court.  

So now not only should you not believe me, not believe @NBASupes, not believe his stats but we should also ignore measuring tape, stop watches, sensors and cameras and trust solely in you? As long as I understand the rules of the fantasy, I can adapt.

18 minutes ago, KB21 said:

They are essentially the same player.  Slow.  Can't change directions.  Cannot navigate traffic.  

How do you reconcile he outperformed Clingan, Missi and Sarr at the combine?  The only one of the big centers to beat him in speed/agility drills was Ware???

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just took it from this article showing Boban's max vertical of 23" compared to 31" for Edey.  That's a pretty huge difference that i think highlights what you can watch yourself.  Boban is much stiffer and less agile to me. 

Get to know Boban Marjanovic - Pounding The Rock

 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Here are the results for the top centers in their testing and measurements:

 

 

 

I think based on the absurd "slow", "clumsy", "can't switch on the pick n roll" comments where the preference was Clingan....the below is all you need to know.

At our cap situation, #1 is a big cap hit for a no clear Allstar draft.

If it's me, I'm trading down for assets if we can find a good partner.

Holds make up 24 million of the cap, the 10th pick (projected) makes up another 5+ million.

The other missed thought here is that 5 of our 6 most expensive players are signed through 27 or 28.  This is your roster barring major trades.  If 5 of 6 put you over the cap for 3 years, you're going to need trade partners or you won't improve. Other teams know this about us.

12 contracts + 10th pick and we're 32 million over the cap. If we do anything, it will be through exceptions and trades (rules apply).

On 4/28/2024 at 9:16 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Also note that there was a rumor of the Saints interest in Penix. They were at 14.

We all know I'm a pretty low risk guy.  But our first 4 picks went from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd to a 1st that won't pay off for 2+ years, a 2nd Round D-tackle projected to go in the  late 2nd, early 3rd and an OLB.  We had 4 picks in the first 79 and came out of it with only 1 guy slotted to play rotation minutes in 2024.  Just makes me ill.

Nothing against Penix. I think he'll be a good, potentially great pro. Its how they went about their business. Very amateurish.

I had no problem with the Penix pick. I had a problem with them not trading down for assets to draft him. He was going to be there at 15 (ish).  

My bigger problem is the trade up for Ruke who would have been there 10 picks later. They traded a 3rd and their second to move up a few slots to get Ruke.  This was a bigger travesty to me.  They could have traded down a few slots, still got Penix, picked up another 3rd, got Ruke and had 3x3rd round picks.  This was a master class is wasting assets.

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I don't edit videos or take clips from YouTube TV and cut them up for proof. But this coach did. 

Here's what he showcased. 

@thecampster

@AHF

@Gray Mule

@REHawksFan

@JayBirdHawk

@marco102

I'll add more later.

 

 

1 lesson should have come out of Purdue v UCONN.  The rest of Purdue was really bad.  How good must Edey have been to carry those jokers?  Purdue doesn't even make the tourney without Edey.

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

He lacks flexibility as well.  He's not fast.  He's not agile.  He's not flexible.  He can't string together moves.  He can't do anything on the move.  

And yet somehow managed to score 24 ppg and grab 12 boards while dishing out 2.2 assists?

@KB21 you are offering observational opinion. He's not fast, not agile, not flexible, can't this, can't that. Those are observational opinions. You might be right but you'd get more respect in this thread if you said, he's not fast based on this official measurement. He's not agile as he performed poorly in the XYZ test. Isn't agile because he can't touch his toes.

Your arguments are based in opinion...not, isn't, can't but without anything concrete to back up what you say except the similar opinions of some analysts.

My arguments, some of Supes are based in facts.  24PPG is a fact. 60% FG% is a fact. Back to back college player of the year...fact. Can pass out of the post (measurable by assist numbers and type of shots off of assists), is a fact. Sets good picks (measurable, there are statistics on this).

I have yet to take most of the arguments in this thread seriously as they've been hyperbole and observational opinion.  Please provide facts. You have a doctorate. You know how to provide fact, cite your sources. Do that or just quit on this. Screaming and pounding the table just becomes noise after a while.  Give me some verifiable measurables.  "Is Slow" is not a measurable. Its an opinion stated as fact. Give me "runs a 5.4 40", "fell while running cone drills", "has a 79% FG% allowed on pick n rolls", cite your source. But please for the love of my sanity please stop stating opinion as fact. You're better than that.

Speaking in absolutes is always a dangerous space to live. Any variation from the absolute makes you wrong.

The lack of flexibility in this thread amazes me.