VarsitySlacker

Do you really want Mike Bibby? Mike "38.7% FG shooting" Bibby? Jesus, if you guys are complaining about Salim's shooting right now, wait until Bibby jacks up twice as many shots and doesn't play any defense at all. And you're saying Childress, the 1st, and Salim? For no cap relief whatsoever? Hardly. It's not even the same case as Iverson, where Ives had to shoot every time because he didn't have a lot to distribute to. Bibby has Kevin Martin, he has Brad Miller, and he even has Reef. And he still can't pick good shots. Pass.

And here I was thinking it was going to be Bravo who jumped on me first. Quote: Loathing Lue? Thats not only harsh it is misguided. Lue was the huge key early averaging 15 ppg when we were shorthanded without Marvin, and then Childress. How can you loathe him? Lue was key early in the year. And early in the year, he probably would have gotten around a B-. However, since early in the year, he has been a ball hog, he has been ineffectual, and he has played to all of the reasons that I loathe him, rather than surprise me. And I still gave him a roughly average score. The loathing comment is a personal preference, it isn't as if I gave him a D- and a satisfied smile. Tyronne Lue is an average(ish) basketball player whos style is not one which I appreciate. I did not rate each player as to their role on the team, but to their position in the league. An "A" player should be in the top 15% of all players in the league. a "B" player should be the top 15-25% of players in the league. You cannot honestly tell me that, for every four players in the league, Tyronne Lue is better than three of them. Quote: Starting Shelden? Please. The same people who criticize Z want Shelden "the stiff" to start in his place. Why? His defense is just as porous as Z's and Shelden's defense is his STRENGTH! Shelden hasn't blocked a shot since the LSU game last year. Z at least scores some points and is one of the best offensive rebounders in the league. 1) Zaza has shown a clear regression from last year. Perhaps he's tired. Perhaps he's lazy. But when Lorenzen Wright looks better in the starting job than you do, then something needs to be done. At least Shelden doesn't shoot the ball every time he gets it, like Zaza's typical 3-11 nights he's had recently. 2) You might want to check your numbers. Shelden is averaging the same amount of BPG as Zaza. Shelden plays fewer minutes than Zaza. Shelden shoots the same percentage as Zaza (or a .5% difference), and has the same defensive rebounding rate as Zaza. And I've already commented on the classic Zaza "rebound my own miss three times," which easily accounts for the offensive rebounding rate. All of this while Shelden IS injured, and playing. At least he has an excuse (though weak) for sucking. Quote: Let me help you with Z because this kid is just 23 and I'm tired of reading crap comments about him. Z is a GREAT back-up. He just needs to come off the bench and if we find the right role for him it will all be great for him. Some here praise a stiff like Batista but spill venom over ZaZA? Yeah, that makes sense. I like Batista because he plays hard. I also said he needs to be in the NBDL. Can Zaza be an effective backup? Perhaps. Tyronne Lue is also an effective backup. And he gets a C-. Every game we have played this year (that I can recall, at least), Zaza has gotten abused. This was not the case last year, unless it was simply a case of him sucking less than everyone else and I was just looking the wrong way. Look at it this way: We know what Zaza is capable of. He is capable of B-/C+ play, which for a center is not all that bad. He isn't living up to it at all. So I would rather see Shelden, who (as much as everyone wants to shout BUST) we have not seen the complete upside of. He had a streak pre-injury where he was averaging 10/10. Nobody remembers this though, because he was picked ahead of Patrick Roy and is buried on the bench. I'd at least like to see him get his shot with a healthy team. Quote: Shelden is not an NBA starter. He will likely never be an NBA starter because he doesn't have GAME. Ah, game. How do you measure game, perhaps? In per? I hear Roland Ratings are pretty popular in these circles. In either case, how much GAME does Zaza have? Because I'm pretty sure it can only be classified as ring-around-the-rosie, because Zaza's signature move is "they all fall down." And by "they all" I mean Zaza, and by "fall down" I mean "flops." Quote: PS-How can anyone be satisfied with the Childress pick when in the next breath they say he isn't as good as Deng or Iggy? That makes no sense on ANY level. None. Because Deng is a solid citizen like Chill, plays at least as good defense, is a better rebounder, better scorer, and doesn't take any nights off like Childress. I love this "Glue Guy" crap. It sounds like propaganda from the Atlanta Spirit. "Yeah, Childress is not nearly as good as Deng is in any category...but he is a glue guy." LMAO...Give me the guy who is the better player by a mile. You go ahead and keep your glue. Chill is a nice guy and a decent player. Deng is basically an All Star at 21. He will certainly be one next year at 22. I don't think people have any idea how good Deng is next to Childress. Check out Deng's last 25 games. Chill was just as inferior a pick next to Deng as Marvin was to Deron. I guess Marvin needs to learn how to be a glue guy. Satisfied. Not thrilled. Not orgasmic. Satisfied. Content. The same way I'll be satisfied with 35 wins this year, because I know we could have a lot worse. We could have drafted Fran Vasquez (sorry to keep throwing his name out there). Up until this year, Childress, Deng, and Iggy have had nearly identical stats per 40. Iggy broke out because Iverson is gone. Deng became the star of his team, because Ben Gordon, great of a scorer as he is, is as inconsistent as the moon. Childress is probably the sixth scoring option on the team behind JJ, Smoove, Lue, Marvin, and Zaza, seventh when Salim is in the game, because Salim considers himself the first. Would I be happy with either Deng or Iggy in Hawks unis? Yes. But Chill does his job effectively, and will be significantly easier to resign than either of the others were they to be performing on this team like they are on others. And I do by all means believe that if the team was revamped and Chill was the focus of the offense, that he could score 20 a game providing he had a distributer like Deng and Iggy both have. EDIT: For Walter, and everyone else: What is it that makes Shelden's offense so poor in comparison to Zaza's offense? Both have identical shooting percentages, but Shelden does his mostly off of jump shots, whereas Zaza does his off layups. Yes, I know that Shelden gets blocked a lot, but this is Zaza we're comparing him to, of the "get stripped or get blocked or throw up a prayer" variety.

Or I guess forum etiquette would be "The VarsitySlacker review of the Hawks," because self-name dropping is the thing to do. Anyways, we're halfway through the season now at the all-star break, and despite the constant complaining that we all have seen, we're actually about in the best-case scenario that we were hoping for. At 21-31, in order to reach the "35 win mark" that most were shooting for, we have to go 14-16. That shouldn't be much of an issue with A) The fact that we've been playing .500 ball this year (2007), B) Everyone's finally healthy(ish), and C) After that brief hell of February, our schedule lightens up considerably. I've certainly enjoyed watching the team play, with the exception of the games where Joe was out. Those were just ugly. Player Reviews: Joe Johnson: God, Nothing I can say here could come close to acknowledging what JJ provides for this team. He's the team's first all-star since Shareef, the first REAL all-star since Dikembe. (I hate to knock Shareef, but he is in my mind the kind of player that thrives on a bad team - able to collect rebounds from misses and put up the buckets from good positions. Stuffing stats becomes easier when all you have to do is catch the ball) JJ has provided us with a constant 25 PPG at a pretty high clip (though he has cooled off a bit recently, 45% is nothing to sneeze at), and while he isn't the PG distributor that Billy Knight tried to sell us on, he's one of the best-distributing off-guards in the game. And he is absolutely worth Boris Diaw, a late pick (even though it did turn out to be Sergio Rodriguez), and an early-ish pick (right now the Hawks are looking at about 8, with nowhere to go but better. His defense isn't stellar, but is above-average, which is impressive when combined with his offense presence. Joe's grade: A+ Josh Smith: I'll go ahead and say it, Smoove is my favorite player. I try not to ride his nuts like certain people who include his name in their poster names, but he is an incredible athelete and probably the biggest steal in a draft for the past five years (Assuming that Gilbert wasn't drafted in the past five years, I want to say he fell out this year). For all the bi tching I heard at the beginning of the season that "he didn't develop," he has certainly come on as of late. He's starting to drive, his shots are falling, he's not kicking the ball all over the place when he's in charge of ball-handling, I see a definite improvement, rounding out a player that already had the most freakish atheletic ability I'd ever had the pleasure of watching. After the early season woes of watching him settle for the three ball entirely too much, he's found a nice niche in which he'll shoot it when he can make it and doesn't have a better opportunity. And while his defense isn't the best man to man (he DOES get blown by fairly easily, and he is foul prone until he starts getting calls he deserves from the referee), he is one of the three best impact/help defenders in the league. As much as it would tickle me to give him something like a C+ to get certain peoples panties in a wad, Smoove gets a B+ for the season, if only for his painfully slow start and a few batches of inconsistencies. If we were measuring from the start of 2007, though, Smoove would get an A. Josh Childress: Is he as good as Luol Deng? Is he as good as Andre Igadaguila? Is he happy with 35 MPG as a backup? Can he ever overcome Marvin Williams to stay as a starter? The answer to all four of those is: Probably Not. However, much to the chagrin of certain people who like to complain about every draft selection we've made, I'm quite happy with Chill's selection by Billy Knight. You talk about him being a "glue guy," but don't really realize what it means until you either take him out of the game or check the stats. Childress quietly plays solid defense, hits his shots 50% of the time, and gathers up 6 to 10 rebounds a game without catching anyone's attention. From the very first game this season against Philadelphia, it was evident that Chill was going to bust his ass to get stuff done, and that has happened. For a solid but not spectacular player who has provided everything that was asked of him, Chill gets a B-. Speedy Claxton: Yes, I'm aware that everybody on this board hates Speedy Claxton for being injured and not shooting at a high percentage. I tend to look past that, and see what he actually provides when he's healthy. A team that actually distributes the ball, and the ONE player on the team that plays spectacular defense and doesn't let his man get by him. I love Smoove, but the difference in defense between the two players is night and day (So I guess that makes Zaza's defense something like a solar eclipse in hell or something). As for his 40% shooting, well, certain people here were orgasming over the idea of getting Allen Iverson...(I kid, I kid). Speedy is overpaid for what he is, but at our stage we had to overpay. And this team is better with Speedy that without him. Talentwise, this team is better with Speedy than they would have been with Cassell (Sam plays abysmal defense, but he was the player I wanted to pick up solely due to his leadership). I want to give Speedy an Incomplete, but I know too many people will take issue with it, so he gets a C+. He's an above-average player. Take it and be happy. Marvin Williams: Oh god the dead horse. Slowly being replaced by his peer of the same surname, Marvin gets torched on these forums a great deal. For good reason, honestly, because fans are bitter that they have Marvin Williams instead of Deron Williams or Chris Paul. I stated my thoughts on this pick earlier, saying "Was it the wrong pick? Probably, but not because of how Marvin is performing, but because of how much better Paul and Williams have performed compared to how they were projected to" (And no, I don't care if you projected Paul to be a superstar and D Williams to be God in two years, go make your own thread and preach about it again). I still think that Marvin can and will break out. He shows flashes of potential, and if could could do nothing but drive to the lane every time he got the ball, he could get 12-15 points a game from FTs alone. He has one of the better jump shots on the team when it's falling, but when it's absolutely dreadful. Another player who plays at least solid defense, Marvin, like Speedy above him, is not what we want to be but still not as bad as we claim him to be. As such, Marvin also gets a C+. Tyronne Lue: I loathe Lue. With a passion. He was a good acquisition for Jon Barry, but has no purpose starting on an NBA team, and certainly has no purpose in directing ball movement. Too many times I have watched him dribble at half-court for 18 of the 24 seconds of the shot clock, and then flail into the lane with a half-assed layup trying to get fouled our lucky. He puts forth effort on defense, but is simply too small and not a good enough defensive player to be efficient. He does provide leadership, and is a good player to have to backup Speedy in his frequent injured-moments. But God, I hate this guy, and feel generous by giving him a C. Shelden Williams: I'll say it: I'd rather see Shelden start than Zaza. Granted, I'd rather neither of them start, but at least Shelden TRIES. And he's playing injured, and he doesn't throw elbows at peoples faces when he gets frustrated. Shelden is what he is, a plus defender, a good free throw shooter, a talented rebounder, and not a liability on offense. In the inconsistent minutes he gets, he hasn't played bad. Not good, but not bad. It amazes me, though, that some of the same people who complain about Salim not getting his chances are so ready to rip on Shelden. When he got his chances to play solid minutes, he was getting 7-8 boards and his share of points. Was he a bad pick? Once again, probably, but I can say with absolute honesty that I don't think there was a right pick at that spot. Roy or Foye would probably be in Salim's spot right now, because I refuse to believe that Woody would start either of them over Speedy/Lue. And seeing as how they haven't blown anyone out of the water in their (better) roles elsewhere, I doubt they'd have earned their way in the rotation any more than Shelden has. Not a good player, at this point not even a solid player, but at least one that I don't wince when I see him on the court. Before the turn of the year, Shelden had a solid C. As of now, he's down to D+, though I think that Woodson can get a good bit of the blame for it (and a lot more, but that is yet to come) Zaza Pachulia: Remember last year, when we all claimed that Zaza was the steal of the century and he was one of the three best centers in the Eastern Conference and most improved player yadda yadda yadda? I think he heard us. I have certainly seen a regression in his play this year, and an absolutely positive that he needs to be replaced before Speedy is in the lineup. Every once in a while we see an agressive Zaza, but far too often now he drives to the lane with the intention not of scoring, but getting fouled. We see it, Smitty sees it, and the refs see it, because they won't call them. Look around hurt as he does, Zaza is no longer a productive player until he decides to play hard again. His rebounds are an illusion, because of the one time every game that he rebounds his own miss two or three times (with no guarantee of him actually making it). And his defense is a joke. Zaza gets a D+, because he's not John Edwards or... Lorenzen Wright: I don't know who of you expected Lo to be efficient. He was barely efficient for us his last tenure, and that was half a decade ago (Can you believe it's been five years since Jason Terry manned the point?) He has made strides as of late, and is showing some grit, but honestly. He was signed to appease fans calling for a big, and to be better than John Edwards. In terms of fulfilling his goal, he gets a spectacular A, because he is in fact much better than Big John. In terms of being an actual NBA player, he gets a D-, because I'm too nice to give anyone an F. Salim Stoudamire: In actuality, Salim belongs above Lo on the player listings. I think. However, those two went together, so Salim gets to chill on the bottom of the list, like he chills on the end of the bench. It's possible that I dislike Salim even more than Lue, but I'm not sure. While Salim doesn't even try on defense, you can always count on him for what he does. Which, this season, is missing three-pointers. Yes, he's better than he's looked this season, and yes, in the right system, he would flourish. Unfortunately for him, the Hawks haven't even established a system, so fitting him into it isn't going to happen. Get him off my court, and send him somewhere he'll be able to play and not sulk. D-. Solomon Jones: When we drafted Solo, I had no idea who he was. He wasn't on any of the draft boards, and I don't follow NCAA closely enough to watch South Florida (or was it Central?) If I was a fan of any other team, I'd still have no idea who Solomon Jones was. However, as a Hawks fan, I can only wish I was more of a fan of him. He hustles, he blocks shots, he rebounds, and he excites players around him. And he fouls. A lot. And apparently the fouling is sending him the same way as Esteban for the year, but Solo definately has potential in this Hawks franchise. Rating: Incomplete. The scrubs: I haven't seen anything impressive of Ivey. Or Slava. Or Thompson, or Richardson. Guess what, it's better that way. We saw how much we winced when Frieje got the ball (and he was my favorite scrub), it's better that the end of the bench stays that way. A last-ditch, everybody-is-in-foul trouble press-here-if-chaos button. Richardson was the best of the 10-day contracts, and I don't mind him in the game so much as long as he's not a core part of the offense. Ivey is still a scrub despite Woody's continuous insertion of him in the rotation, and he while he play solid defense, he will always be plagued by foul calls that he may or may not deserve. I wish I could even include Esteban here, because I love to watch him play. Unfortunately, he's not even at scrub-level right now, closer to purgatory, and I don't know why. Rating: Incomplete Billy Knight: Boris Diaw. Josh Childress. Josh Smith. Marvin Williams. Shelden Williams. Salim Stoudamire. Royal Ivey. Besides their obvious Hawks ties, what do they have in common? Perhaps the fact that they're all still in the NBA. Is than an attestment to how bad the Hawks are? Perhaps. But for a team that once had a draft with four first round picks, and only two of them lasted longer than two years, we should be appreciative of what we have. None of our important picks have gone the way of Robert Swift or Fran Vasquez or Dermarr Johnson. They're all still playing (or should be playing) consistent minutes. Even our second round picks have flashed potential though haven't reached it, though that's what second-round picks should do. I know you guys wish we had Chris Paul, or Brandon Roy, or Luol Deng, or whatever. I also know that Utah and Portland and Seattle and whoever else sure wishes that they had Josh Smith. If every GM was a perfect drafter, then the league would look a whole lot different. And honestly, people would probably complain even MORE on draft day, because 9 times out of 10, the best player available at a position is a crapshoot beyond the first pick. And while he did overpay for Speedy and Lo, he did what was absolutely neccesary, get a big and a PG. Atlanta is not exactly the most alluring place to get FA's, and while he could have gotten Nene or drafted Chris Paul, at least he hasn't signed Adonal Foyle. While BK is not brilliant, we could be doing a lot worse. Look at NY or Boston (Though Walter would love to be Boston right now). I'm giving BK a C+ for taking a depressing team and giving me hope that there is a succesful future. Mike Woodson: Ugh. Ugh, Ugh, Ugh. I tried my best to stick up for Woody when the team was injured, when the team was bad. But for all purposes, he is not the right coach for the team. He came in as a defensive coach. We do not have defensive players. We have run and gun players, and our lack of a system is killing us. And he still can't implement any sort of defense, or plays, or substitution pattern. I'd rather have Stotts back right now. I want to say I'd rather have Kruger back, but I don't know if I want to go to extremes. And what the hell is Batista doing? If he's not going to play, at least give him the service of playing in the D-League. Let him beat up on Future Superstar Saer Sene for a while. I know I said I wasn't going to give an F, but...yeah. BUST. The Fans: This is me. And you guys, too. I'd like to remind you that this is still the youngest team in the league. And we're still making a slowly progressing incline. We're not the Knicks, where there is no hope in site. Each year we mature a little, get a little bit better. If our players bolt for Free Agency, then yeah, we'll be in trouble. But if we can lock up Smoove this year, if we can prove to Chill that we will be a good team in the near future, there is no reason to panic when we're just out of range of the playoffs. And there is certainly no reason to tank. I'm content with 35 wins this year. Not next year, and not the year after that. But for a young team, it takes a few strides to be a good team. And we're on the tail end of those strides, but we're still making them. Don't let yourself be spoiled by that 4-1 start.

Quote: MW's averages .4 SPG and .7 BPG in 32 MPG. I expect more production than that from "good defense". I really don't want to defend Marvin here, because I'm pretty frustrated with him myself, but come on. Did you graduate from the "JohnnyBravo *law* school of interpreting statistics?" You can't interpret a players defense by impact plays, because a player who never goes for the steal but stays on his man is a thousand times better than one who ALWAYS goes for the steal and gets it 1 out of 4 times and loses his man the other three.

and unfortunately could have done it to us this year, had he not decided he like LA so much.

Quote: Second of all, you can't have it all add up to 240 minutes. Because not every player plays every game, no team's minutes/game adds up to 240. In fact, the Hawks adds up to 331. So in order to come to any sort of conclusion about who you'd be playing more and who you'd be playing less, we need you to make your minutes/game add up to 331 as well. What, are you kidding? I had a hell of a time trying to make it all fit under 240, but had almost got there, but your logic is seriously flawed. The key breaker there is (just for examples sake) Marvin/Chills. They've played maybe 5 games together, as opposed to 13/8 where the other was injured. Since they're similar players, they're going to take over minutes for each other. If you're trying to account for 331 minutes, then you're going to be in a lot of trouble come game time. While it is true that most teams MPG exceeds the 240, we're assuming this will be a fully healthy Hawks team, in which case it won't. As for mine (which is really just an amendment to Walter's, because I think he did a hell of a job with it) Starting lineup: Speedy 28 Johnson 35 Smith 32 Childress 28 ZaZa 23 BUs: M. Williams 24 S. Williams 22 Lue 16 Solomon 14 Batista 6 Stoudamire 6 Wright 5 Ivey 1 Thompson 0 Medvedenko 0 If we do decide that we can trade Lue, 4 of his minutes go to Salim, 2 go to Speedy, 2 go to Chill, 2 go to Zaza, and the remainder of them are split among Solo/Batista/Lo

Nah, I'm pretty sure that BK knows that Oden is a must-pick unless something drastic happens. A better question is what happens if we get the two pick? Oden is obviously the number one, but can you see BK taking a player based on talent (Durant?) over a ever-so-slightly less talented player at a position we desperately need? (Thabeet) Then again, I could see him drafting Noah, because Joakim is a BK type player, and I would be infuriated. I will say this, though: Two years ago, everyone in Orlando wanted Emeka Okafor. We all know how that worked out.

Woodson apparantly felt that Batman was getting lonely.

No. Nate Robinson brings energy, yes. He can dunk, yes. But that's all he's good for, and most Knicks fans I know loathe the fact that Isaiah gives him so many minutes, because he's a 7th or 8th man at best.

Quote: Statistics are totally useless if it's not a competitive game. Meaning...if your team is blown out at halftime and totally outclassed - who cares? Nobody gets beat 100 - 10...therfore there are always some stats to be picked up by the best players on a losing team. Stats like those mean nothing because they weren't in a competitive game. Best of the worst. I understand entirely, but the comparison is still valid. On the Hawks teams of the past, nobody averaged anything more than roughly 4 assists per game, no matter how bad or well we played. Speedy is averaging double that. Considering that our offense has been impotent at best since Smoove went out, it still says something that he's setting up players for a shot 8 times a game. He is distributing the ball better than Lue ever did, and thus he's the effective PG I desired to play with Smoove and JJ. The two don't need Steve Nash to play well (though don't get me wrong on that, I love Nash), they just need someone who can focus on who is open and take the load of JJ.

While it's true that Speedy is inconsistent in excelling, I don't ask so much as you do. In Speedy's last eight games (the ones that he's been healthy), he has gotten 11,11,8,9,7,5,8, and 5 assists (respectively). That's 8 assists per game. I'll be the first person to tell you that assists can be overrated (as I said in AI's case), but Speedy distributes the ball a thousand times better than anybody we've had since the Mookie days. If he can keep up the pace that he's at right now, then I'll be happy with him. I don't know why people consistently expect 15 PPG from him, that's not what he's here to do. He's here to distribute (which he has) and play defense (which he does). And if he, Smoove, and JJ are healthy at the same time, then this team is a good team. And that is in increasing order of importance. The team was without it's third most important player (he played, but obviously not healthy) for about 15 games, without it's most important player for about 6 games, and are now without it's second-most important player. For a team that needs all three to be healthy to win, it's quite obvious why we're not. (Well, that plus Woodson)

Quote: Quote: From y'all candy azz HS posters. Y'all wanted to defend Woodson. Y'all didn't want to bring in HOFers to "protect our youth". Be patient you say. I didn't post for two weeks and I come back and all I see is 30 threads bitchin about the Hawks. I don't want to hear it. When I posted that the AS aren't smart enough to spell cat if you spotted them the C and the T, you all defended them. We have a sh*tty excuse for a fan base. The only cries for Woodson or BK's head is in effin Cyber Space. If a tree falls........ So there you go. Enjoy your rally corndogs and your nappy headed coach and GM because this is as good as it is going to get. I can't wait for Belkin to win. I am going to meet him at the airport with an effin poster which says "The Hawks Nation Greets you Lord Belkin! IDIOTS you tried to pass yourself off as a "lawyer" in a post this afternoon. I was very close to calling you out at that very moment because what kind of individual with any level of intelligence would come on an internet message board and say quote "I'm not talking to ya'll. I'm trying to talk to the owners?" and now this post. there are many on the Squawk that let this kind of thing pass with no mention. I'm not one of them. Liar. And here I was thinking that his credentials seemed a little bit flawed because he's never been able to win an argument, ever. And again: This team has been plagued by injuries. Are we worse than we should be right now? Yes, and that is Woodson's fault. I think we've all come to the realization that Woody is not a good coach, though I'm not so sure that many people have been defending him as you so claim. But this team (obviously) needs both Josh Smith and Joe Johnson to play well together, as well as a PG to distribute. When the Hawks have had all three things, they have looked good. Unfortunately, this was for all of like 3 games. And they were losses, and that is on Woodson. If you'll notice, Philadelphia is playing no worse now that Iverson has been replaced than they were with him here. And the individual players are playing better (Especially your "not a real scorer, only someone who Iverson sets up" Iggy) Is Denver winning? Yes, but Denver was already winning before Iverson, and will continue to win without him, because they have the talented bigs neccesary to clean up all of Iverson's misses and convert them into second chances. By the way, your boy shot 5 for 17 tonight. He'd be quite a threat with your other boy Salim. Yes, the Hawks are losing right now. And yes, nobody likes it. But no, you're still not right. Well, in the case of Woodson, yes, but nobody's argued that for a long time. And for the most part, we do still need to be patient. It's unfortunate that the Hawks have been destroyed by injuries this year, but at this point it's only looking like we got set back another year - It sucks, but it happens. The panic button is for teams in their last glimpse of their window of success, not for the teams who has barely begun to mature.

Before I'll start, I'm just going to make it clear: When I first started watching the Hawks, Mookie/Smitty/Corbin/Laettner/Mutombo was already in place. Obviously Babcock did something right there, because that was a fun team to watch. Since then, this is what I've seen: Mookie Blaylock for Jason Terry - This was a good move. It's also the only draft pick that Babcock didn't screw up. While he had three other picks that turned out to be terrible, you can't fault him for it. From Cal Bowdler on, the only real impact player was AK47, and this was before the Euro-Rush. Foreign players were still a risky proposition. Steve Smith (and Ed Gray) for JR Rider and Jim Jackson. - I don't care that Smith was old and not going to be good anymore. He was the core of this organization, and this one trade turned the Hawks into a laughingstock. Rider was a bad idea from the start, and didn't even manage to last the season. And honestly, it wouldn't really shock me if the losing attitude he created rubbed off on Jason Terry, though I have no proof for that. Draft Pick for Lorenzon Wright - yeah. Jim Jackson for Brevin Knight - Yeah, I think Knight is a good point guard. But at the time, Jackson was our only legitimate scorer, so without him who was Brevin going to dish it to? I remember seeing this on Yahoo! and being completely confused. Dikembe for Kukoc, Nazr, Theo, and Speedy - I can't fault Babcock for Theo being chronically injured in his stay with the Hawks. In theory, I still like this trade - Kukoc did a hell of a job for the team, Nazr was a legitimate post player (and still is), and people forget that Speedy was in this trade as well, but Babcock dropped him. THAT I can fault him for. (Gasol), Knight, and Wright for Shareef - In theory, this is two lottery picks and a PG that's still going for Shareef, but I'm not going to argue that. I liked this trade when it happened, and while I would rather have Gasol, Shareef was a hometown boy and certainly did his share here. Draft Pick for Glenn Robinson - Yeah. That one turned out well. In all fairness, everyone expected JT/Diaw/Big Dog/Shareef/Theo to be better than they were. Unfortunately, they weren't, and they cost a LOT of money to be chronically bad. Trading away the Tinsley/Parker pick for pretty much nothing. Babcock apparantly realized that he couldn't draft, and thus had no use for draft picks. In retrospect, a core of Tony Parker, Jason Terry, Pau Gasol, and Amare Stoudamire would be pretty nice right now. BK cleaned up the mess of overpriced veterans and got draft picks in cohesion with getting ride of Reef and Theo. He got rid of Nazr (mistake) and probably did not get enough for any of Rasheed/Walker/Harrington/Nazr. While his draft picks aren't perfect, he's yet to pick an Ed Gray or a Dermarr Johnson (or Hanno Mottola or Cal Bowdler). Atlanta also has the "they'll get better as they get older" excuse, which I don't think anybody could say about Big Dog and Shareef. I happen to think BK isn't a bad GM. Not a great one, but certainly not at the level of Billy King and Isaiah Thomas. I think Speedy/JJ/Marvin/Smoove/Zaza is a good team, but has a bad coach and bad luck. Babcock lucked into Smitty being better than everyone thought. He also was unfortunate enough for Theo to be injured more than anyone expected. I think the good moves that created the Smitty team and the bad moves that created the Big Dog team can cancel each other out, but Babcock's inability to build for the future created a hopeless situation in Atlanta. I'll take Speedy/JJ/Marvin/Smith/Zaza over any hand-crafted Babcock team post-Smitty trade. In fact, in about two years, I may be saying that over any Babcock team ever. But that's just me hoping.

Can you really say that Speedy is not as good as advertised right now? Now that he's remotely healthy, he's been averaging like 8 assists a game even with the team unable to make buckets. If you were expecting him to put up the points, you were delusional, it's well charted that he's a poor shooter, and thrives on being able to drive the lane. This is harder to do with a team not so worried about outside threats like Salim "By Golly I just need to find my stroke" Stoudamire. But yeah, apparantly you guys are delusional if you think we could call Van Gundy up right now and be "Hey, our record sucks and our ownership is a mess, come coach us" I voted the Fratello option, not because I want Fratello, but because "someone who has ties to the Hawks" is the only person that would sign on right now mid-season. Most likely scenario is that Brown or Drew get promoted for the season and we look for someone else at the end of the year.

Quote: Quote: Obviously, I'd like to have another top 3 pick. The same as I'd like a defensive big. Unfortunately, you didn't allow that choice with the option of keeping BK. You do realize that BK would be fired if we had one of the 3 worst records this season. Would and should be fired. You can't with any credibility retain the pick and GM. W Fair enough. I guess the point that I was trying to make is that the team needs "a new manager and one more piece," though the new piece takes a back seat.

I have no issues with Billy Knight. I know some of you have issues with him, but the team that dominated Utah for three quarters and played better than Chicago for 47 minutes is the team that Billy Knight constructed - It was a group of good players who complement each other in the right style of play. However, the coach brought in does not play the right style of play. He does not have ANY style of play. Woodson has two plays: Zaza pick for JJ, and look confused on the sidelines. It's possible that he could be a good defensive coach for a team that has a bunch of hard-nosed, rugged defenders, but this is not that team. And he has failed to connect with anyone on this team, as evidenced by the consistent inability to close out games. Injuries can shift the blame to a certain extent. However, not being able to close out games on a consistent basis makes it evident that the fault lies with Woodson. It's quite evident to me, though, that for this team to succeed, it needs three things: A healthy Joe Johnson, a healthy Josh Smith, and someone other than JJ to distribute. The first one is obvious. The second, because Smith is the heart of this team, and the only person who is really a low post threat on defense. The third, because Johnson can't be expected to do anything. Obviously, I'd like to have another top 3 pick. The same as I'd like a defensive big. Unfortunately, you didn't allow that choice with the option of keeping BK.

Esteban has twice as many rebounds and just as many assists as Zaz in 1/4 the time.

Can someone explain to me what Woodson has against Batista? If there was ever a game to put him in, now would be that time.

Injured count: 5 Josh Smith, Speedy Claxton, Zaza Pachulia, Josh Childress, and Tyronne Lue. I assume we're going to start with Ivey, Joe, Marvin, Shelden, and Lo. That's an UGLY lineup. EDIT: Oh God, this means our bench is Solomon, Este, Salim, Bozeman, and Frieje. This could get ugly. At least Solo and Este are virtually guaranteed decent minutes to show what they can do.

I guess it's a personal preference then. To me, it seems that if I cared to read the response to "why," I would have been reading from the top to see the question about dogs. I've just noticed that a lot of posts from Walter (and others, but he's the one that comes to mind) have an altered quote structure that misses an end tag and ends up with the entire post in a quote, making it so you have to search for the new content. And of course, in the arguments we have where each post has the previous four replies because everyone is too lazy to edit them out.

I called for us to try to acquire Thabeet in the "how would you improve the Hawks" thread, because to me he projects favorable with Dikembe Mutombo. I said there that I'd be willing to trade Zaza and our Indy pick to move up if we could for him, but I don't know how likely that is.

Quote: Can anyone name one for doing it? Because we wanted someone who would improve our post defense while not setting us back another year at rebuilding. Is it possible that your boy Sene will develop into a better player than Shelden? Absolutely. But all projections expect him to be at least two or three years away. Do we REALLY want to be two or three years away? I'm all about waiting for the right time, but even on this board, generally fairly patient, we have impulsive hotheads like JohnnyBravo who are sick of losing and want to win NOW with the most impulsive move possible. Shelden was able to come in and play defense (technically he's a better center than Lo, even if Woody doesn't play him there) while playing on a similar maturity level as Marvin and Smoove and Chill and the rest of our "young players." Therefore, he did what he wanted. The only mistake here was BK making it public knowledge that Shelden was his guy. After he did this, he couldn't trade down because everyone else would threaten to block his pick. Yes, players like Millsap and Solo were picked in the second round who can do what Shelden does. But can you really blame someone for not being able to pick one of the three players after the 28th pick that actually projects well into the NBA? Shelden was a safe choice and a fitting choice, just not the SPECTACULAR FRANCHISE PLAYER THAT YOU SHOULD PICK WITH THE FIFTH PICK NOT A ROLE PLAYER that you decry BK for not picking. (For the record, I believe the only players in this draft that have a chance at being Franchise players are LeMarcus Aldridge and Rudy Gay. Aldridge was gone when we picked and Gay would have started a shitstorm. Roy and Foye have the potential to be good players, but not superstars)

Speedy with 7 assists at the half.

strained groin. Hopefully he'll take a LONG time to heal.

What People? Don't get me wrong, there is not a player in the NBA I would rather have on my team right now that Dwight Howard, but I can't imagine that Orlando's not trying to throw as much money as possible to keep their young center with their young nucleus. But Oh God Howard could unite with Smith and then maybe we could sign Randolph Morris to recreate their high school AAU team and I get happy feelings inside and damn you for exciting me