bleachkit

8 hours ago, AHF said:

This is where Ferry really killed it by signing FAs away from other teams on extremely cost effective deals like DMC, Millsap, and Thabo and trading for Kyle Korver for peanuts, etc.  We haven't had a trade or free agent signing like that for a while.

Yes, he didn't get enough credit for that. Very good at under the radar signings. 

13 hours ago, macdaddy said:

What a horrible answer.  'yeah our two stars aren't playing well together. most likely one of them will be gone soon and his name rhymes with hurry'.    Great motivation for the rest of the season.

Well at least he's giving his honest opinion. I can respect that. I think Id prefer that over the GM shouting "he's our guy" from rooftops, and then they trade him soon there after.  

11 minutes ago, Sothron said:

And it won't be until Messy Ressy pays the LT. Expecting a bottom five payroll team to be a playoff team is frankly idiotic.

Where being cheap really hurts you is your bench. We used to have solid vets like Gallo and Lou Will off the bench. 

1 hour ago, Nash said:

Bogi's the best signing this team has done in years. He's a better player than MPJ from Nuggets but playing for half the money 

Averaging 17 points a game. He's been solid.

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Bruno going for 20 pts - 15 rebs vs Charlotte.

This is his chance.

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Tiger is kind of interesting in that he would be the mirror case that some are trying to make.  In a sport where none of the superstars were Black Americans, a black golfer emerges to become the most marketable player in the last 50 years of the sport.  Not sure if they are making the case that white athletes in general are more marketable or that specifically for basketball that it would be huge because there have been no white American superstars for decades.

Either way, you and I agree that race isn't the big thing that will determine if Flagg is a marketing star or not.  I also think Tiger Woods would have been a generational star regardless of his race.  Same with Jordan.  Same with LeBron.  They are all very charismatic and generational talents.

(Definitely disagree on Mahomes / Brady as I think the vast majority of adults knew who Brady was at this stage of his career whereas I would be that a significant majority of Americans wouldn't recognize Mahomes wearing a business suit.  There is a reason Kelce was the Chief hosting SNL and it isn't because Mahomes has Brady type Q status.)

Patrick Mahomes is the leading endorser among active NFL players. Not sure what else you want.

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Ryan Dunn is probably the top target for our 2nd 1st. He's flawed but we need a stud defensive guy extremely bad

BPA on first 1st. Reed Sheppard is my top prospect. 

Kentucky players have an excellent record on transferring their skills to the pro level as well.

Do you know is the arguably the most marketable athlete of his generation outside of MJ and perhaps LeBron. A black golfer named Tiger Woods. Case closed. 

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Mahomes is on a similar trajectory to Brady in terms of NFL on field success.  Brady was a marketing dynamo.  Mahomes isn't.  Brady is white.  Mahomes is mixed race.  You could argue that race is the big factor that prevents him from getting the kind of Q factor that Brady enjoyed.

Bonds was a vastly superior player to McGwire but McGwire was much more beloved and got a lot more play in ads, etc.   Both used steriods and cheated by McGwire never got a big blowback while Bonds did.  Is that because Bonds is black and McGwire is white?  You could certainly make that case.  Is it because McGwire was charismatic and projected a positive attitude closer to Ken Griffey Jr. while Bonds projected a surly attitude?  I'd say that you can't discuss this fairly without taking that into account.  On the personality side of things, I'd say Griffey vs Bonds is a nice case study.  Now Griffey didn't transform from an athletic outfielder to a body builder but even when that was happening guys like McGwire were getting loved for it while Bonds wasn't.  

Anyway, just saying all these are anecdotes and I think you'd need a much more broader study to try to account for the many variables that go into it.  My gut says race is pretty low on the pecking order of what makes someone a successful marketer in light of the great variety we see in terms of people who are successful in building their brand and marketing themselves from all areas of media including sports.

I don't think the Mahomes/Brady is a fair comparison. You would have to compare endorsements at the same point in their careers. Id bet Mahomes actually has more endorsements than Brady did at age 28. Mahomes has prominent endorsements from Adidas, State Farm, Subway and many others.

Total buzz kill. Hawks were playing pretty good recently. But our defense is strait trash. Nothing else needs to said. 

41 minutes ago, AHF said:

You could definitely find examples to make the case.  Patrick Mahomes versus Tom Brady.  Mark McGwire versus Barry Bonds.  But you could also find counter examples (Sammy Sosa versus Chipper Jones for example).  I'm certainly not aware of any largescale study that suggests being white confers any meaningful advantage in sports marketing.  I find most anecdotal comparisons come down to personality and charisma more than race but that is also my own anecdotal take since I won't claim to have made any serious comparison.

I don't understand your Mahomes/Brady, McGuire/Bonds examples. But ultimately I agree with your conclusion that success and charisma are the most determinative factors. 

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Using women's tennis I think you could make an argument that the Williams sisters used their US roots to help build their brand.  They were amazing players but part of the appeal and the marketing story was their rags to riches pitch which is appealing to and particular to (different from unique to) an American audience.  Sarena in particular had a very engaging personality which obviously also helped.  I don't think physical attraction was the key to their hype although they were both lovely in their own way.  I would link the physical attractiveness more to some of the Russian players with Anna Kournakova being the poster example for that (pun intended).

For men's sports, physical attractiveness seems to have a much weaker correlation between marketing success and looks so it doesn't hurt at all to look like Tom Brady or OJ Simpson but you can also look like Peyton Manning or Dennis Rodman and still be a marketing juggernaut.  For me, charisma and success are the two biggest factors. 

You bring up the Williams sisters. Would they be more popular if they were white? Probably not. I just think it's really tough to make the case being white confers any advantage in sports marketing. 

1 minute ago, AHF said:

There is no data either way.  That was the point of the post you just quoted.  How many white American superstars have their been?  Not any in the last 30 years.  So with a sample size of 0 how can anyone expect data?  

I agree data is needed to prove the case as I said above.

True but I also think there would be examples of over hyped White American players if thats what marketers were truly looking for. To use an analogy in another sport. Look at women's tennis. Some woman's players received more endorsements because they were considered more attractive. Not because they were necessarily the best players. 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I think you have to say on this that we have no idea whether being a white American gives you an actual edge in marketing.  If the last guy who was a white American and was a marketing star was Larry Bird and Bird hasn't played since 1992 then you have 32 years of no data supporting that idea.

Obviously, none of the white American All-Stars since then have sparked big marketing dollars (think of someone like Christian Laettner who had all the publicity and hype  you could hope for but never much of an NBA fan base).  I think the idea is sound that a white American superstar wing should appeal is sound but also agree that any superstar wing has the potential to be a marketing stud if he is likeable and charismatic.  So let's see how it plays out.  I certainly don't take it as a given that anyone is destined to be a marketing stud primarily due to race and nationality.

To me, I'd say for example that I don't take it as a given that he will be better than Chet Holmgren or Mitch Richmond or Khris Middleton or any number of other players who have been really good but not even really blips on the radar as far as being marketing stars. 

I will say that I'm pretty sure a "white Joe Johnson" would not be any kind of marketing stud.  Great player.  7x All-Star.  But very low on charisma and very few really "big moments" that are celebrated by NBA fans who aren't Hawks fans.  (We remember some really big plays in the first two rounds of the playoffs but that isn't where legends are made.)

If being a White American helped then there would data or examples supporting that position. There is literally none. 

5 minutes ago, shakes said:

post after post, you keep skipping right over the AMERICAN part.   Why you keep doing that?

I didn't know NBA fans were so xenophobic. "I would be a huge fan of his, but he's not American!" Like nobody is thinking that at all. Do you seriously believe if had just been born in Scranton or Toledo that would make some huge difference in his marketability? That's absolutely moronic. 

He's kinda similar to DJM is some ways.

54 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Yeah I think it's fair to say it's time to pursue treatment options.  Perhaps it's just the unfair stigma that goes along with saying a person should 'go on meds' that caught my attention.

Your initial statement felt a little stronger than what you just posted.  I dunno. 

I guess "treatment options" sounds better than "meds." But really there should be no shame in taking psychiatric medication. It saves lives. I'm sure the team has a top notch psychiatrist and therapist working with him. If he misses more significant time next year for the same reason his career might be in jeopardy. There are only so many roster spots and teams will accommodate only so much. Hopefully he's aware of what's at stake and can recover from his personal struggles. 

16 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Eh, yall know me well enough to know I don't take much that serious here.  In this case, I simply thought the suggestion that he go on medication was a little bit much considering we know literally zero about what's going on.  

"Mental health" is too vague for us to make blind assumptions.  And we can't compare this to, for example, a knee injury.  Not the same thang.  Both are speculation, but there are a finite number of treatment options for a physical injury.  Treating a person's mental health is much more 'grey', wouldn't you agree? 

Yes it's more grey. But missing nearly an entire season due to mental health issues is unusual and concerning. Wouldnt that be a fair statement? I work in this field, and if someone came to me and told me they missed months of work, I would say it might be time to consider some treatment options. No I'm not claiming to have access to his full psychiatric evaluation, I'm just speaking generally.

21 minutes ago, mountainjim said:

You said its probably time for him to go on medication - that statement from someone who is not his doctor is out of bounds, in my view. 

I would be embarrassed for him to read your statement, and our responses to it, as his MENTAL health and offering ways to improve/fix things is none of our f***ing business, on a public message forum.

In my opinion.

Um, this is a Hawks forum where we talk about what's going on with Hawks players. If a player has missed nearly an entire season due to mental health issues, maybe medication should be considered. No I'm not his psychiatrist. If a guy has missed a long time with an injury, maybe surgery should be considered. No I'm not his orthopedic surgeon either. Clearly you believe psychiatric medication is this last resort terrible thing, I don't know what else you're having such a strong reaction to the suggestion.

3 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

I think he was poopooing your over-the-internet psychiatric advice to someone you've never even met.

We speculate on injuries , why should this be any different? He has missed nearly an entire season due to mental health issues. It's documented he had mental health issues in high school as well. Sounds to me like he needs psychiatric care, or should consider it at the very least. There is nothing controversial about what I'm saying. 

36 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I gotta throw a flag on this one, bl.  Unnecessary speculation.  15 yards, repeat 1st down. 

Psychiatric medication can help. If you are having ongoing mental health issues that are causing you to miss work, it's something to seriously consider, under the care of a doctor of course. I don't see what's so controversial about my statement.

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

AJ been dealing with mental health. He's gonna be in College Park after the break

I wonder if he has religious objections to medication. It's probably time for him to go on a psychiatric medication.

41 minutes ago, Sothron said:

You mentioned Shaq because he's a white American player? Oh wait, he's not. Insert strawman.

Being a white AMERICAN superstar is what I am talking and only have been talking about. Jokic is not that. Luka is not that. Steve Nash was not that. The last white AMERICAN superstar player was Bird and he got marketing deals out the whazzoo back in the day. 

Saying Flagg being a white AMERICAN superstar in the making has no impact on his market appeal is, again, frankly silly. 

I mentioned Shaq because he is a center, and he is highly marketable. And I'm not sure why you think being American is so important. Did you recently witness the Wemby hype? He's French. Giannis is very popular. He's from Greece. If you have some empirical evidence to support your position, please share it. The two things that really matter are how good you are at basketball, and how charismatic you are. Being White does not appear to provide any marketing advantage. If it does can you cite an example? Being American does not appear to be that important either. Ultimately you have be really good and have some flair or charisma that excites fans. 

5 hours ago, Sothron said:

Shaq is the only center, ever, to sell shoes. You are moving goal posts at this point.

Flagg is a unicorn as a white American superstar with freakish ability. Jokic is none of those things. Shaq is none of those things. Saying Flagg being a white American in addition to his basketball skills has no impact on his marketing appeal is frankly silly.

Actually I'm pretty sure you're the one moving the goal posts here. I'm citing examples that run counter to your specious claims and you're conveniently dismissing them. According to you being White really helps in marketing. Wait, unless you're foreign. And you can't be a center either. And any examples of successful centers or foreign born players also don't count. Ok man sure.