sturt

Quote: Stern isn't trying to get to the bottom of anything. He's trying to shut the talkers up... Exactly. How can anyone conclude otherwise... He penalizes BEFORE launching the investigation... YET, so far, all that ESPN and the sports journalism world can do is put Van Gundy through the grinder instead of Stern. Absolutely asinine.

Quote: Revenue demands that they continue to protect the cash cows so that the machine stays well oiled with greenbacks. Funny that the NFL and MLB do not have to deal with this issue nearly as much... yet they, too, have cash cows that they could protect to the slanderous degree that the NBA does. I realize you have the occasional Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who get a little extra part of the plate. But... (a) it's so much less of an issue that it's barely worth mentioning, and (b) even if it were... it's just as wrong in one sport as it is with the other... both are wrong and it shouldn't happen if the integrity of the game is truly sacred over and above the marketing (ie, revenue) of the game. Unless I've misread, Stern's admitted that he knows these rumors have been part of the public discourse for awhile... Anyone have a clue why he hasn't done anything about that? Well, Selig was in a similar situation prior to the Canseco book and the BALCO revelatons... he knew, but did he and his friends do anything about the unfair advantages that some players had? Now, the sports world is in agreement that Major League Baseball sacrificed some of its integrity in turning that blind eye. Sadly, Stern is no better than Selig, and in fact, worse, if indeed he was personally aware that this was going on and he did nothing to stop it. Furthermore, he's worse because whereas Selig wasn't directly involved (e.g., putting roids in players' hands or similar), Stern has implemented a policy over a long period of time that directly led to this situation -- a situation I'll call "purposely imperfect officiating prompted by 'insights' from above."

I almost hate to get sidetracked on this issue, because it detracts from the larger one which began this thread. All I can say is, if ping pong balls can be drawn on a state lottery show every night, and everyone agrees that that's done fairly and efficiently, then it's very strange that we can't witness the NBA doing the same thing. Concerned about the time it takes? Don't even go there... the NCAA and CBS get a whole 30 minutes of commercial time sold because of the drama of the Big Dance assignments. It's just not an excuse, and in fact, it's strange that it just never has occurred to them that there's another potential revenue stream in that... instead, it's relegated to halftime of a playoff game. Surely David Stern, "Marketing Genius," would capitalize on that, wouldn't you think??? Here's the upshot: 1. Stern knows these questions are out there about the NBA draft lottery. 2. Stern's done nothing to remove the shroud of mystery. 3. And strangely, he doesn't even market the NBA draft lottery in the way he could if he wanted to do so. BUT... I care substantially less about all of that... I just want to watch a game and know that the winner and the loser both were given a 50/50 fair-shake opportunity to win. If MJ can be drafted 3rd, and if Ewing could be drafted 1st... let's face it, the draft isn't what's going to keep a team from being successful... But special emphasis on officiating the play of certain players or teams can and has and will continue to do so... that is, until the media and the fans put Stern through the grinder on Van Gundy's assertions and ask "what do you know and how long have you known it?"

Quote: "The Stars drive this league". IF that is really the case, then how far will Stern go to make sure that the league never stops or Stalls. I wouldn't put it past him to fix games, fix drafts, and tell the refs to manage the game so that his team gets on top. Because the bottom line is that all Stern cares about it the league and if the league is driven by the Stars, then he will make sure tht there are always stars in the forefront and everybody else takes a backseat. Is there any doubt that Stern wants Miami/San Antonio? Diesel, now this is where people like Dan Patrick and others jump off the boat. They aren't willing to go that far. But what they don't understand is that you don't have to go that far in order for it to be a farce. When you purposely slant the floor just to 51%, at that point, you've went beyond the boundaries of ethical competition. They'll all admit that that happens. They just don't see Stern calling refs up and telling them that Team X is the one that should win over Team Y... BUT neither do I. What I do see happening is what Van Gundy has clued us into now: Stern or one of his people let the refs know that they're expecting them to watch for this or that from this team or that team -- as opposed to watching for this or that from ALL teams. No big bad conspiracy necessary. Just a little "insight" from the top. Again returning to my analogy with how it would work in ANY other universe... if Kenneth Lay had discovered long ago through the same means that there was something fishy going on @ Enron's accounting dept -- and of course, many contend that he wasn't ignorant -- and then had he moved to penalize the person who went public with the charge, that wouldn't have shown well on him, now would it... the media would be all over it, and in fact, many of us would begin, in that context, to wonder openly, "what an odd reaction... wonder what HE knows about all of this." Here's the rub if you're scoring along at home... David Stern's reaction is: "I want to find out who's talking and put an end to this" -- under the pretense that HE KNOWS none of this stuff is going on, and that he wants to put a stop to the talk. That's as opposed to the reaction that says: "I'm the head of a large organization -- I can't possibly know EVERYTHING that goes on, and if this happened even once, I'm going to find out about it and put a stop to it; and if it's not, I'll let THE EVIDENCE make Van Gundy out to be a liar, and only after that will I punish him." Look, even if somehow I'm all wet with this whole belief I've outlined in this thread... ...and I'm just not... ...but at the very least, NBA fans and sports media ought to be asking why Kenneth Lay or David Stern would be penalize the whistleblower BEFORE even performing an internal investigation -- or preferably, an independent one (of course, that was Andersen Consulting's job... hopefully Stern would have better wisdom than Enron had) -- to see if they can uncover any truth to the accusation. I think I know why he didn't bother with that, though. No MIT degree required.

Yeah, this is less about all of Stern's other qualities, pro or con, to me. I just want the game to return to being a game that, when you watch it, you can feel confident that everything is on the up and up and no one's getting predetermined advantages. But it does have a lot to do with this very thing Diesel's talking about, too. When you're so reliant on one star, then that just gives that much more incentive for the league to lean on their noteriety to drive revenues. But moreover, Stern's marketing problem remains, not as some would allege that Tim Duncan is boring, but that it remains a league dominated by too few players that common people can relate to -- still too many thugs, certainly, but even besides the thugs, even among the non-thugs there's this whole hip-hop thing that is such a cultural barrier, people just don't connect with these millionaires with their yo-yo "knowwatImean" chatter and stuff. Add to that Stern's influence in allowing the game to become rougher and the whole officiating thing indistinguishable... and you've got what you've got... an albatross sport that's going the way of hockey unless LeBron grows into a taller Jordan -- which Stern prays for every morning as he says grace over his coffee and bagel... and then, we can hypothesize (ie, *educated* guess)... does his part to help God out by logging onto the password-protected NBA Refs website, and does whatever he does. It's amusing that people think that Stern is being proactive to get to the bottom of this... I mean, put this in the context of ANY other industry, and where else would the whistleblower catch immediate hell and unprecedented fine from the person running the organization? To wit, what would happen to George Bush if someone revealed to 60 Minutes that there was some kind of mischief going on in the government, and his immediate response was to find ways to punish the people who suggested there was a problem? No, how we normally go about this, outside of David Stern's NBA kingdom, is to launch an investigation seeking information from whatever sources are willing to talk. And, we even will go so far as to appoint independent investigators/counsel who have the authority to look at EVERYTHING, including internal papers. Is that going to happen? No. Not unless it ever occurs to the people with a bullhorn -- the Dan Patricks and Bob Costas's and Mike Lupicas of the world -- that this discrepency exists in the way Stern has handled the situation. I'm not sure they're that smart.

I'm not going to bother repeating myself. If my assertions don't make sense to you, so be it. I walk into this discussion understanding that there is some number of people who can watch refs swallow their whistles as skinny Steve Smith obliterates Shaq Daddy, and to them, it's just an oversight... a gray area. That scene just repeated itself too many times for me to overlook it, and ever since, I've been waiting for the day that there could be some tangible evidence for the stark difference between the NBA of David Stern's era and the NBA of Larry O'Brien's era. That's the ingeniousness of Stern's strategy here -- it's truly not a conspiracy, because it doesn't require some massive number of people to shroud what's going on, and then too, Stern knows that people like Lascar will always say "show me some evidence," fully secure in the knowledge that any evidence produced from a game is subjective and thus, can be easily explained away. Thank you, Jeff Van Gundy. Maybe just maybe, if the media will now dig for this like they dug on MLB and steroids, Van Gundy will do for the integrity of the NBA game I used to know and love, what Canseco (and certainly not owing to any great ethical principles on his part) has done for the integrity of baseball. Quote: Phenomenon? You might've shared that with NBC before they basically declined to even bid on continuing the NBA package. The league had its worst ever NBA finals ratings last season. The league is generally considered a league where the hoodlums run the show. Need I go on? The league's popularity only survived beyond the Bird and Magic era because the greatest player ever to play the game happened upon the scence. You apparently hadn't noticed, but everyone else, including David Stern, can see that this league is on gasping for air... and that has everything to do with why Stern is so defensive now that Van Gundy has helped to expose his methods. Quote: You must have no idea of how the league has improved as a business since Stern came along. I mean really. Since he took over, the NBA's revenue has increased 500%. Seriously, 500%. Jordan's been gone a while. You're tripping over your own statistics here, my friend. 500%? I have no idea where you got this number, but I don't need to know... it makes no difference b/c the devil's in your timeline... When did Stern take over? When did Jordan come into the league? When did Jordan exit? Is that 500% since Jordan left or since Stern took over? Because if you're aleging 500% since Jordan left, then you and I both know you're a Stern stool pigeon because you're making things up. And, because if you're alleging 500% since Stern took over -- as it appears you have stated more exactly -- then, Jordan has had EVERYTHING to do with that growth. The key is to ask what's happened since MJ left, and I don't need to defend my assertion to anyone who isn't a Stern stool pigeon... the rest of us can clearly see that this league is gasping for air. Quote: The world doesn't follow baseball or football like they do the NBA. You don't see international players flooding the NFL and the MLB. Only a fool doesn't understand why that is so... I'm not going to bother. Quote: Yes the ratings are in a slight decline in the last 2-3 years, but that is so insignificant compared to all he has accomplished. Can you stick to one position or not? Either the NBA is more valuable as a result of Stern's Rules or it isn't. Thankfully, even you can't ignore the true state of things. Quote: I guess you do need go on if you are going to try to tell me that he didn't take a drugged out league and make it into an international phenomenon. Okay, okay, you've convinced me... I repent, and would like to issue this statement... "Thank you David Stern that (a) you don't like drugs, and (b) people in European countries are interested in watching their natives sons play in the NBA... you are truly an inspiration to us all." Quote: You can debate his impact on the game itself, but there is no way in hell you can come close to arguing how phenomenally great he has been for the NBA's marketing and finances. Okay, hold it... I thought you just admitted that the financial trend "in the last 2-3 years" (a conservative estimate, but I'll take it) isn't actually "phenomenally great"... and more accurately, it's headed south ??? Would you make up your mind? Wait. Don't bother. You're making things up, now, just in the quest to see if you can argue this with any legitimacy. I'm done with you because you clearly are just interested in playing Stern's defense attorney, and not willing to honestly think about all of this. Not to be a jerk, but you have the last word b/t me and you, b/c I'm not wasting my time any further.

Quote: Let me ask you this, if there was any truth to it, don't you think Stern would want this to die down ASAP? Exactly... And giving out a $100,000 fine is a sure way to make it die down and go away... ain't no clearer message to the rest of whoever has knowledge that could support Van Gundy's assertion that he's pulling out all the punches on this if they talk. Quote: Maybe I missed the part where you gave a solution. I didn't read one. I think it may be too simple, and easily just read over top of... The solution is to call the game the way it's called in college... the way it has, in the past, been called in the pros. The solution is to care more about the integrity of the game than how to prop up the game so that certain teams and stars get a 51% chance to win. Quote: These NBA athletes are faster and stronger than the NBA in the past, and certainly than any NCAA team. That makes them significantly harder to officiate. In all the time I've discussed this issue, this is the best argument that anyone can raise. As if because athletes are supposedly faster and stronger, the refs are at a disadvantage and can't do their jobs nearly as well. Yet, somehow that only applies to the NBA. And not only does it not apply to the other major sports leagues, but if this were so, why wouldn't the NCAA have the same problem? Why aren't their athletes getting faster and stronger, and why aren't their games harder to officiate now than they were 20 years ago? Assuming the premise is correct, we should be seeing NCAA games taking the same exact course -- but instead, the NCAA game remains the same. Here's the bottom line: NBA officials call the games... They are in charge... and if they chose to call the game the way it ought to be called, players would respond and follow their lead -- same premise as the batter who learns where an umpire is calling strikes and balls. Quote: ...from a business point of view it's how he made the NBA into the worldwide phenomenon it is... Phenomenon? You might've shared that with NBC before they basically declined to even bid on continuing the NBA package. The league had its worst ever NBA finals ratings last season. The league is generally considered a league where the hoodlums run the show. Need I go on? The league's popularity only survived beyond the Bird and Magic era because the greatest player ever to play the game happened upon the scence. You apparently hadn't noticed, but everyone else, including David Stern, can see that this league is on gasping for air... and that has everything to do with why Stern is so defensive now that Van Gundy has helped to expose his methods.

But Doc, it's that and more... it's worse than that. The entire game has been altered, ostensibly with the intent to make practically every call arguable and gray. With that as a backdrop, then, we KNOW they have a website to communicate with the refs; and who is really suprised that, on that website (or, potentially on the phone as well), refs are encouraged to give special attention to this or that. It's one thing to encourage refs to call a certain foul consistently for all players. It's another thing to encourage refs to call a certain foul a certain way for a certain player or players. This is just so clever, and yet so sinister. With all that I have, I hope the fuse has been lit and Stern is about to see his tyranical reign fall down all around him. I just want to enjoy the NBA again.

Quote: I hope he gives you a reply. Just received, short and sweet: "Good points all."

Quote: Van Gundy can't just drop a bombshell and then shut up. If it's true, then he needs to come clean on how he knows, and there needs to be a full investigation so the problem can be fixed. If that happens, I will respect the hell out of Van Gundy. If he shuts up such that we can never know if it's true or not, or how to fix it, he is a pusssy. I understand that no one wants to rat someone else out, but he should have thought about that before he made this public. Van Gundy has done us all a huge favor by lighting the fuse. I'd like for him and his source to both come forward now, but even if they don't, there's another entity that bears responsibility to get to the bottom of the story -- our esteemed sports media. Let's see if any media people are willing to pursue this. It is their job after all, and they tend to be very good at it when it's going after major league baseball and steroids users, or any number of others. Quote: If you want to be a whistleblower (no pun intended), tell us what you know. He stated it as fact, he needs to back it up. Now seriously,... I too want to see evidence, but just on the face of it, do you really believe Jeff Van Gundy is so disingenous that he just made it all up? Quote: I think Stern puts more effort into training the refs, and reviewing all their games and calls, than any other commish in sports. I won't disagree with this in the least... in fact, I think it's EXACTLY what Van Gundy himself would say. But for different reasons than you would assert. Quote: And he is sick and tired of all the BS conspiracy rumors that swirl around anything he is involved in, and hurt the game and its image. If he's so sick and tired of it, I've got a solution. If the NFL refs can call games pretty much like the NCAA refs can call games, it is just beyond me why we can't expect the NBA refs to call games the way NCAA refs call games... and in fact, you have further proof that it can be done just by watching ESPN Classic... it's the way the NBA used to be called. And there was never any conspiracy talk back then, for some strange reason. All of that has changed, and that's only happened since David Stern has taken over. .

Some of you will agree with this, but probably most of you won't. Here's my letter to Richard Justice of the Houston Chronicle tonight: Mr. Justice, it would be a great honor to me if you would read and just stop to consider these words. So thank you in advance for that. First, I'm not a Rockets fan. Haven't even seen what's got Van Gundy in a huff. Quit watching the NBA after the 2000 Lakers/Blazers series and at the exact moment in the decisive game when Steve Smith absolutely mugged Shaq on a cherry-picking play, but no foul was called... wouldn't want Shaq to have to step to the line in that circumstance, you see. (And no, I'm not nor was I a Lakers or Blazers fan either.) I'd suspected it before, but then it became too obvious to deny any longer -- that there is a distinct difference between the NBA and its counterparts, the NFL and MLB. And now, finally, someone with some clout is speaking up. "Conspiracy" is the word that Van Gundy's detractors, such as Dan Patrick of ESPN, like to throw around to demean him, but I've yet to read him use that term. (Maybe I just missed it?) They throw it around because they know that that sounds "extreme." Well, it is indeed extreme, and if I may represent those of us who have divorced the NBA in spite of our love for the game, here is what we really mean to say, instead of "conspiracy": That is this: The David Stern Dispensation NBA has found that it can subtlely use inconsistent officiating to tilt games 51% to one side of the floor or the other. After all, "it's a judgment call," so no one can actually prove the existence of any wrong. No "conspiracy." Just some occasional unfortunately picky or unfortunately lax refereeing... and what sport doesn't have that, right??? Yet, that is summarily the reason why the NBA game you watch today is altogether more brutal than the ballet on parquet in the pre-Bad Boys NBA. By allowing it to be brutal, you see, fouls are that much less self-evident, and thus that much more open to "interpretation." And again, who of us can argue about interpretation, right? Unlike major league baseball where umpires generally have lattitude with managers as long as they dedicate themselves to being consistent, David Stern's NBA has made it impossible for any fan to know what is a foul from one quarter to the next and depending on which game you happen to be watching. Conspiracy? Not exactly to the true degree normally associated with the definition. No, it's not professional wrestling. But what Van Gundy has done is expose the method used and the degree to which the NBA brass have meeted out their influence on games. It's a matter of a simple phone call from a higher up to the refs, suggesting that they "watch" this or that with this or that player from this or that team. Simple. Doesn't require a massive body of people to coordinate. Can never be accused of "conspiracy." The players on the silver-spoon team still have to make the shots in order to win. But... a 51% tilt of the floor can be tough to beat... and will be effective more often than it isn't. Now, if only some reporter will have the determination to stick to this story. (Please do all you can to encourage that to happen, won't you???) I used to love nothing better than to watch either college or professional basketball, and whether my favorite team was playing or not. Back then, the difference between officiating in the two was about the same as the difference between college football and pro football -- rules might be slightly different here or there, but "holding" in the Rose Bowl is the same as "holding" in the Super Bowl. Can't say that any longer about college and pro basketball, though. In so doing, the Stern Administration stole the joy of the game from me. (Who can watch when you can't even tell what is a foul?) And though I long ago picked up on the nuanced switch that was made to better control the outcomes, I've been powerless to bring it to the forefront -- I am, after all, just another person among millions of sports fans. But thank God for Jeff Van Gundy and whoever whispered in his ear. Now there's someone who can make a difference. Maybe, anyway. And maybe, just maybe, I can have my game back if this could lead to something that exposes Stern's business for what it is -- unscrupulous.

Guess he's already talkin to TNT about a new gig... http://www.nypost.com/sports/18327.htm July 30, 2004 -- After being let go by ESPN, NBA reporter David Aldridge could be headed to TNT, according to sources. Aldridge could work as an NBA insider or as a sideline reporter for Turner. The sides should meet shortly. "Aldridge is a well-respected talent, but, in terms of hiring him, it is not something we are prepared to talk about right now," a TNT spokesman said. Aldridge said he didn't know if TNT has interest. (They do, David.) Aldridge, who left the Washington Post eight years ago for ESPN, said he will look at print and broadcast jobs. At ESPN, Aldridge's decline has been rapid. When ESPN acquired the NBA for the 2002-03 season, it made Aldridge its top sideline reporter. However, this year, his role was reduced. Recently, ESPN officials told Aldridge they would not renew his contract.

Sorry, but the journalism degree kicks in every now and then. Coupled with a controlling personality, that can be a baaaaaad thing.

Dies, put yourself at Elgin Baylor's desk... you can have Q-Rich for about 7 mil a season, and you really like Q-Rich anyway... or you can have JT for about 7 mil a season and have to give up someone you like... which would *you* pick? I agree with the premise, but there's got to be more in the deal for LAC to bite... like a salary they can dump (nothing apparent there) or some kind of similar help in a bigger deal for Vince... like taking Lamond Murray so that LAC wouldn't have to.

From what I've read, any VC to LAC trade would need to include Maggette... and consistent with your trade, would concurrently, would need to rid Toronto of Lamond Murray. And if Toronto commits itself to this direction, you'd have to think they'd give some pause to Rose and/or Marshall's exit... at the end of the day, though, I'm not sure if the franchise is smart to do *that* extreme of an overhaul at the beginning of the season, as opposed to waiting for the trading deadline. If they do decide to jettison VC, though, Atlanta really doesn't appear to be needed for Toronto and LAC to get the deal done; and at the same time, Toronto really isn't needed for us to get a JT deal done. Given the circumstances, though, and admittedly looking through Hawks-colored lenses, I think LAC does themselves a great service to give JT some serious thought... Hawks are in a position, as Diesel indicates, to practically give JT away on the premise that doing so could open the door to both Dampier and Swift becoming Hawks. And looking at their roster, it seems there's a void to be filled by a smaller backcourt player who can score. The other side of the coin is that JT and Q-Rich are going to cost them about the same regardless, so keeping Q-Rich could be considered better since they wouldn't have to give up anything at all.

Lascar, I'm rarely motivated to join Diesel in his ad infinitum speculation, but at the very least I have to jump in on his end of the pool on this one... per this 7/21 ESPN.com column by Sam Smith, who has a decent track record, we shouldn't be surprised if Toronto is willing to turn the page... ========================== CARTER WOULD LOVE L.A. Like the exchange rate, Vince Carter always seems to produce about 75 percent of what was expected. It doesn't seem like it's ever going to change, which is one reason why it's time to see if someone can earn full value with Carter. It's time, like with Tracy McGrady, who really was Carter's downfall in the first place, that Carter move on. To both give him a chance to change and get the Raptors franchise out from under the weight of Carter's promise. And there's one place that's perfect for both sides: The Los Angeles Clippers. No, they didn't get Kobe. And they passed on the chance to go for McGrady while pining for Bryant. Owner Donald Sterling is known for not paying, but he always has sought to pay a star, to have a glittering piece to show off. Carter is and can be that. If he were to go to the Clippers, they would have a better lineup than the Lakers and a better chance to succeed with Elton Brand and Corey Maggette or Quentin Richardson. It would be the best talent the Clippers have had since Buffalo with Ernie D. and Bob McAdoo. Why would the Raptors do it? All that salary cap room. The Clippers got caught with their millions hanging out when Bryant opted to remain with the Lakers. They are in the unique position to take major contracts into their cap space. So, for example, they take Carter and a few of the Raptors' long-term deals, like Lamond Murray and Alvin Williams. They get back Richardson if the Clippers match the Suns' offer and then Richardson agrees to the trade, a one-year provision for restricted free agents. If not, another player gets substituted. Perhaps they expand it to a mega deal with Jalen Rose. Vince Carter sure could use a change of scenery after two disappointing seasons in Toronto. What it does is give the Raptors a chance to rebuild with upcoming salary cap room and some nice pieces on the roster. It is a beautiful city and salary cap room is rapidly disappearing. The few teams that have it over the next couple of years can score big in free agency. The Carter era is over in Toronto. That's clear. New management is in place with a new coach. They'll want the chance to rebuild in their image without the burden of Carter's expectations and his injuries. To say nothing of his latest angst toward the franchise over what is either his lack of involvement in the general manager's search or the Stanley Cup going to Florida. Who out there thinks the Raptors are a playoff team? Hands, please! Thought so. Especially in the powerful Eastern Conference. Now maybe if the Raptors were in the Western Conference, which hasn't had a champion since 2003. Carter is like a precious stone to the Raptors: beautiful to look at, but fragile. He's admired but also high maintenance, to the point that perhaps they're better off with something more practical. He's a luxury they can no longer afford. Carter is one of the great talents in the NBA, if not the best. He's not necessarily the best player because he doesn't really have the desire to be. The fact that Carter doesn't yearn for greatness was his and the Raptors' undoing, not because of what Carter couldn't do but because of the price of expecting it... http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/stor...&id=1843856

...to fill Q-Rich's slot, and it could prove to have double the benefit. And perhaps (?) there's some added room for discussion if Toronto and VC are brought to the table as well.

While I agree w/ the premise that no news is good news, I wouldn't agree that every passing minute makes it more likely that he'll become a Hawk... rather, every passing minute for now means that he knows what the Hawks have on the table, and he's waiting to see if somehow the Knicks, Pacers, or Griz can figure out something more ingenious than they've already been able to do to convince Chris Mullin to snt. Particularly with news that his agent was meeting w/ Isiah just today, that option can't completely be discounted just yet.

We both love to dream up scenarios that make sense. And... unfortunately... we both have been very disappointed when the GMs involved couldn't figure out what whe saw so plainly. I welcome you to correct me if I'm wrong, but our track records in predicting these things absolutely sucks. That said, I, too, think it's to everyone's benefit, including his own, if JT has another uni to wear soon... we shall see.

Quote: Mike Woodson was a college teammate of Randy Wittman at Indiana, and he was on Wittman's staff in Cleveland. I don't know if Wittman will consider a lateral move, though the fact that it is the Hawks could help. Good input, KB. But Doc offered Wittman an assistant job w/ Boston, and his response was that the Wolves had been too kind to him for him to justify making a lateral move.

Brown's connection to Knight would mainly be that Knight's chummy w/ the Indiana GM, his former boss.

Strickland? Oh, now there's a candidate for NBA's Mr. Congeniality right behind Spree. I'd missed Armstrong and Coles comments, but I'll take your word for it... and of course, realizing that most good coaches can be accused of that offense at some point. At least we apparently agree that PJ, given a 2nd shot, would be worth that shot.

Quote: Even PJ had a good reputation among players as an assistant. Just for the record, can we all agree that Spreewell was the real problem, not PJ? It's time to let that go, and for that matter, time to give the guy another head coaching opportunity, though obviously not in Atl... he wasn't too shabby at the NBA level.

...might help that signing to come to pass(?). Quote: Can someone tell me more about whether Okur is a restrictive or unrestrictive FA. If so many of you think it is a waste to offer KMart a Max contract, is it possible to acquire Swift and Okur for similar money or a little bit more. I believe that is what the market will give KMart, and it may be what we have to do in order to start attracting some talented players in order to improve this years playoff chances and more importantly, position ourselves for next years FA pool. After we finally rid ourselves of Hendu/CC we will still have alot of cap room, along with our exemptions for next year.In Okur and Swift we will strenghten our inside play( at least defensively) and after we pick up a veteran point guard , I would be happy with our team at this stage, for the upcoimg season.

Woodson, Brown are Hawks front-runners By MICHAEL LEE The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 7/1/04 Detroit Pistons assistant coach Mike Woodson and Indiana Pacers associate head coach Mike Brown have emerged as the leading candidates for the Hawks vacancy, two sources familiar with the coaching search said Thursday. The sources also said general manager Billy Knight probably will have a coach in place by the middle of next week. Knight was unavailable for comment. Woodson just won an NBA championship and has spent the past three seasons working under Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown. He was credited with helping Pistons All-Star center Ben Wallace improve his offensive game last season. Woodson also has served as an assistant in Cleveland, Milwaukee and Philadelphia. He played 11 seasons in the NBA and was a former teammate of Knight's in Kansas City in 1983. Brown just concluded his first year with the Pacers, working as the "defensive coordinator" of a team that finished second in the NBA in scoring defense (81.1 points per game). He spent the previous three years as an assistant in San Antonio and won an NBA championship in 2003. Brown is 34 but has 12 years of experience in the league, having also worked on staffs in Washington and Denver. Knight kept busy Thursday, hiring former Memphis Grizzlies scout Rodney Heard as the director of scouting, and promoting former assistant coach and advance scout Mike McNeive to director of pro personnel and Julie Hogg to basketball operations coordinator. Terry Stotts, the man Knight fired, has found a job. He joined Mike Montgomery's coaching staff as an assistant with the Golden State Warriors this week.