sillent

BK's resume quick and easy. He takes a dysfunctional team Vancouver Grizzilies, Atlanta Hawks and he turns them into playoff teams via draft. He must be doing something right because if the team sticks with his core and philosophy(Teague and Jamal are BK type of players Big/Athletic Guards) they continue to get better(our Atlanta Hawks). Once they decide to go in another direction(Grizzilies), they go in another direction. BK's next venture will indeed be proof of this, it's just a question of who would give him the freedom to create his vision (I doubt New York gives him a try because they think Lebron will be their savior).

First of a thanks.

There is no question that i am a card carrying BK and Childress hater. I was saying the Hawks should let childress walk months before he actually did.

Having said that sure childress is good enough to play in the NBA. After all Randolph Morris has an NBA contract. However he isn't good enough to get the money he wants here. He had to go overseas to get it. The guys drafted right after him which many of us wanted didn't have that problem.

Deng (with yearly salaries $10,365,000, $11,345,000, $12,325,000, $13,365,000, $14,275,000) and Iggy ( $12,200,000, $12,345,250, $13,531,750, $14,718,250, $15,904,750) didn't have to go overseas to get paid because they are much better than Childress and far more valuable to their teams.

Also i never had any problem giving BK credit for the JJ and Bibby trades.

As far as Deng and Iggy are concerned I always felt that year that it was some inside deal going on. BK must of had a deal to leave them on the board so they would not snatch Josh Smith as a desperation move. BK knew he wanted Smoove but it would have been very questionable to take him as a lottery pick. Childress was a good character guy with a lot of length and is a good system player(anti Iverson). Josh Childress the safe pick left a lot of desired players on the board which allowed the high risk high reward player(Josh Smith) to fall into our laps. NBA insiders know that GM's commute all the time especially on draft day. They want to get a feel of the consensus picks especially from the teams ahead of them or that have the same need/want.

And somehow you still won't acknowledge how little BK did with his lottery picks:

#2 + #3 + #5 + #6 + #11 = Marvin Williams (solid starter) and Al Horford (plus starter) and rights to Josh Childress (average starter/plus reserve)

If you keep hearing that point over and over it is because it is a pretty important one.

I would have more interest in this debate if people could at least acknowledge the legitimate points on either side.

Anyone who says that BK didn't draft some good to very good players is being delusional, IMO. There is no question that Josh Smith, Pau Gasol, and Al Horford are all plus to fringe All-Star players.

Anyone who says he got good value for his premium picks while GM of the Hawks is likewise delusional. It would be hard to get less than BK did for the lottery picks he had unless you are Pete Babcock.

Here are the last 5 lottery picks for a half dozen other franchises (only including picks made by those teams) and every one of them includes better or arguably better talent (personally, I rank BK's lottery picks above the Pistons but below the others):

Boston Celtics = Joe Johnson, Kedrick Brown???, Jerome Moiso???, Paul Pierce, Chauncey Billups

Chicago Bulls = Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah<Horford, Tyrus Thomas<Smoove, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich

Cleveland Cavs = Luke Jackson???, Lebron James, Dejuan Wagner, Desagna Diop, Chris Mihm

Dallas Mavericks = Devin Harris, Etan Thomas???, Courtney Alexander???, Dirk Nowitzki, Samaki Walker???

Denver Nuggets = Carmelo Anthony, Nene Hilario, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Raef Lafrenz, Keon Clark

Detroit Pistons = Darko Milicic???, Rodney White???, Mauteen Cleaves???, Bonzi Wells, Grant Hill

Besides the Bulls how many of these teams played and won together. You got a lot of question marks to answer.

I'm not exactly a BK hater but I hate his draft day decisions. I mean how can u argue with 8 lottery picks and 1......1 all star from those lottery picks. 1 out of 8 is pretty crappy, debating this is pretty ridicoulous.

Back to something my friend Sillent said........"Marvin and Bynum were picked for the future(Bynum has been in the league for a while now and still has not put up an impressive full season). Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league.??????????????????????????????????????????????? Can you show me where this is at? I hope that this was a typo or that you meant something totally different...............if not............... :cant believe:

Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league as Bynum."

Josh Smith hall of famer? Marvin Williams all star? Horford a 20-10 guy? And on the same level as Wade?

I give up.

Great quote I said that like 50 times and if this is the way you imagine people's statements then yes you should give up!! Point is I love the Hawks. Dominique("Smoove being my new version") got me into to the game(watching and playing) and I am very proud of the product I see today (And yes I credit those who have made this happen). Quote this and trash any other imaginary thought you may have about my post(s)

?????????? So much wrong with this post idk where to start.....Gerald Wallace=Diaw........this is just ridiculous...........do u watch basketball? Marvin can't go in the same category as those lakers players bc he was the 2ND PICK!!!!! Bynum was the only guy taken in the top 10 and I know that u can't seriously say that u wouldn't take Bynum over Marv................What does the era have to do with anything? I really just didn't understand that one. The Bulls and Thunder are still rebuilding and don't have any rings, on that u r corect but where are our rings?????????? The question is did those teams draft better than BK and the answer is an unquestionable YES!!!!! Kevin Martin isn't a bad player to boast my friend,,,again u should try watching some games......oh last one, so u wouldn't take Wade over ANY player that we've drafted n Butler is twice the player that Marv is and again I say Marv was a number 2 pick............

In lamens terms, Gerald Wallace, like Boris Diaw was not known by most until he was traded.

Marvin and Bynum were picked for the future(Bynum has been in the league for a while now and still has not put up an impressive full season). Marvin is the same category except he has not had as many years in the league.

Reggie Miller,Danny Granger cannot possibly be looked at as your GM being a good drafter as to say these two played together(Hence same era). Harrington did not hit his prime until he got to our team and was not a star with Reggie Miller either.

The real question IS how do you like our team now? Who looks better(currently) in the next five years with Young Talent, Chemistry, and being a Playoff team to boast ? I've already admitted that the Bulls, OKC, and Portland are other teams that should be threats in the near future but the Bulls have took more time than us because of the inconsistent manner/approach they take/took to rebuild(Since Jordan Era) and the rest are pretty much following BK's suit( Remember BK started this in Vancouver when he made them a playoff team and then bailed for us. Build through the DRAFT, Quality, Good Character Players that know how to win or want to win and let them develop together. Unless you are debating against this fact then I really don't know if you are even reading/understanding my original post. Build Players not a player through the draft and let them not him develop. That's human nature for you, make things so simple complicated(It's not a tree it's paper, no it's a house, no it's furniture, NO it is a tree make what you will of it.

Except Marvin was the second pick, Bynum the 10th, Vujacic the 27th. Other than that, yeah, they are similar in quality, which speaks volumes.

Both drafted and regarded high but need time to develop. Vujacic 27th/ Diaw 21st speaks volumes(I can't hear Vujacic .

Danny Granger is not from a different era, and he is better than anyone BK picked

So Reggie Miller, Danny Granger and Al Harrington were all stars on the same team?

Same boat? Caron Butler and Dwyane Wade same boat as the hawks picks?

Yes, young and talented but not quite there yet. We still Josh Smith(Late blooming Hall of Famer), Marvin Williams(Late blooming All-star) and Al Horford(20/10) guy to boast. Not to mention we drafted more good players like Boris, Childress(Hate so I can bring this up later once he returns to the league) and others.

You can't pick and choose. You can't say that championships and success doesn't matter on one hand and then it matter on the other. In any case, Presti has been there 2 years. Let's see where he is at after 5 years, like BK had.

Who says it doesn't matter. I gave you props on this one but reiterated once again that they are in the same boat as us as far as having talent but still needing time to state how far this talent will get them and has got them so far. If anything this team gives BK the most props because they are following his system(rebuild with a lot of talent through the draft and let them learn and grow together as a team. Durant is what Marvin was/is expected to be eventually. Josh Smith is better than Green but they are both do it all players. Horford is a good big Westbrook is a good guard(both assumed to not be playing in their strongest position but are both proving pundents wrong to some sense).

Again, you can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better. Chicago has undoubtedly drafted better than the Hawks.

First of all I created this post and the argument has nothing to do with who drafted better but I'll play this game with you for fun.

Chicago?? Deng(lottery),Rose(lottery) Bulls have been getting lottery picks for awhile( see Chandler/Curry/Gordon). Not saying they had bad picks(maybe I'm being nice/truthful) but they are not pass us when it comes to contention. They are actually below us when you see how long they have been rebuilding(since Jordan Era) and they have only consistently been up and down. So far we are on a steady uphill since BK completely dismantled the team he was given.

You can't be serious.

Ditto

You can't pick and choose your argument. The question was who drafted better than BK. All these players are at least as good as, if not better, than what BK drafted, and none of these GMs had as many top 10 picks as he did.

Which one of these teams are better than our current Hawks. Especially the ones via draft. Until y'all stop fooling yourselves and look at the current instead of the what if's. Again, these arguments are irelavent to the original topic and can go 9,000 post in to no where if you are not posting legitimate grunts against what our team is now(Note I gave Kudos to BK and Sund).

It is understandable that there may be bad blood(especially towards BK because of our past "failures" and I only mean in the win/loss column). Time/Winning heals all wombs and it just looks like a lot of us "Hawks fans" need more time than others. We could win a championship this year and there will still be gripes about BK( which is sad if this happens because Paul, Deron, Roy or anybody else you think BK passed up on would not have even gotten close to this stature yet unless they ended up playing for an already good/great team like Rondo). But unless the debate is about the original post( which basically states we have a great team/core now and it will/should be that way for years to come) then these arguments will continue to go no where on my part and you all's.

First of all, I did not say that BK picked bad character guys. I said that, similarly to McHale, he might have put a decent team together, but he has to be judged by how much better it could have been.

And if you think that Josh Smith and Boris Diaw are better than Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, Delonte West, Kendrik Perkins and the rest, you are delusional.

Rondo is not a troublemaker. People have claimed that he is sometimes stubborn and not willing to change his game, but then again, the same can be said for Josh Smith.

You are entitled to your opinion. But no one who seriously follows basketball thinks that Boris Diaw is anywhere near the level of a Rondo or an Al Jefferson. Josh Smith is closer, but no one would consider him to be on the level of the 2 either.

And are you seriously saying that Luc Longley/Dennis Rodman(a starter on a championship team who averaged a double double in last year's playoffs), Big Baby (who averaged 16 points a game when replacing KG) Somebody has to make up somewhere for this departure(It is the NBA and your NBA scrubs will destroy a team of the best players most of us know not in the NBA)and Powe are on the same level as guys who never cracked the rotation on the hawks?

And all this ignoring the elephant in the room: Ainge picked those players without having a top 10 pick. BK had 4.

Although these players maybe serviceable we as Hawks fans would have a heart attack if Perkins, Big Baby and Powe were our players to boast. Put Salim(Eddie House), Powe(Solo/West), Big Baby(Sheldon) in the same system at that time and it would probably be the same argument(sad).

Being better at drafting doesn't mean that one is infallible. He was the one who saw the talent when so many other GMs passed. In fact, part of the skills necessary being good at drafting is getting the good value for little investment. The fact that he didn't draft him at 7 is irrelevant, as it just means he thought he could get him lower than 7, and the fact that Rondo was starting over Telfair by the end of the season shows that? As far as Phoenix's owner being cheap, it was an open bid. Anyone else could have bought that pick and selected Rondo.

Exactly!! To the second bold statement what does it show besides he recognized his mistake same as Sheldon/Horford with BK except Ainge was lucky enough to have a choice the same year.

And you keep focusing on just Rondo. Why don't you say anything about Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Delonte West, Big Baby, Ryan Gomes?

[/qoute]

Serviceable but seriously wouldn't start or even be an option on a team that had better options.

:laughing5: I see plenty of doubt. I love Gerald Green but why is his name not even mentioned? Did Ainge draft him? Are we hiding facts( This goes for everybody posting examples/excuses without covering miscues).

Boston was in the same boat as the Hawks the year before KG and were on the verge of being swept by us if it weren't for the fact that Woody "forgot' we had Smoove on the bench when we had a nice lead and just needed defense stops(Yes the same Smoove that had 10 blocks on the Mavs his rookie year)!!

Sounds complicated and that a lot of good luck was involved.

Let's take a look at one example as an illustration here. People who are supporting the idea that Knight is a great GM but can't find a job for reasons unknown have ridiculed the idea that Isiah Thomas was a better drafter. I strongly believe Thomas had the better eye for talent. He nailed it at the top of the draft and got a good number of starters and significant contributors later in the draft.

Drafting must be considered relative to the pick that you have. You can't look at a list of players and say "whoever has the best list is the better drafter." With that in mind, here is a comparison:

X = Worthless (or virtually worthless), S = Starter

Billy Knight

#2 Marvin Williams - S

#3 Pau Gasol - S, 2-Time All-Star, 1-Time 3rd Team All-NBA, 1st Team Rookie

#3 Al Horford - S, 1st Team Rookie

#5 Shelden Williams - X

#6 Josh Childress

#11 Acie Law - X

#17 Josh Smith - S

#21 Boris Diaw - S

#31 Salim Stoudamire - X

#33 Solomon Jones - X

#34 Donta Smith - X

#37 Royal Ivey - X

2 All-Star Apperances, 1 Third Team All-NBA, 0 All-NBA Defense, 0 ROY, 2-1st Team Rookie

5 starters in 12 top 40 picks

2 lottery busts

Isiah Thomas > Billy Knight

#2 Marcus Camby -S, Defensive Player of the Year, 4-time 1st/2nd All-NBA Defensive Team, 1st Team Rookie

#7 Damon Stoudamire -S, ROY, 1st Team Rookie

#8 Channing Frye - 1st Team Rookie

#9 Tracy McGrady - S, 7-Time All-Star, 2-Time 1st Team All-NBA, 3-Time 2nd Team All-NBA, 2-Time 3rd Team All-NBA

#20 Renaldo Balkman

#23 Wilson Chandler - S

#29 Mardy Collins - X

#30 David Lee - S

#35 Jimmy King - X

#43 Trevor Ariza, S

7 All-Star Appearances, 7 All-NBA Teams, 4 All-NBA Defense (1 DPOY), 1 ROY, 3-1st Team Rookie

6 starters in 10 top 43 picks

0 lottery busts

Bearing in mind that among these picks Billy Knight had an average draft position of 9.6 for 7 first round picks and Thomas had an average draft position of 16 for 8 first round picks, how in the world did Knight do a better job drafting than Isiah Thomas? Thomas got more starters, blew fewer picks, and had guys (to date) achieve more immediate and long-term success than Isiah's guys despite having much less to work with in terms of draft picks (which was partly his own fault based on other aspects of his performance that don't measure up to his drafting).

The post is not about drafting but about giving thanks to good overall results. Tracy's one of my favorite but he has not even got out the first round. None of these players have won a championship and most of them are not on the team that they were drafted.

Smoove, Horford, and Marvin are. They are still starters and at 23 the jury is still out on them as far as (all-star,defensive player of the yearband etc..)!!

LOL

Childress and Marvin were bad picks considering where they were drafted and the players available.

Isiah drafted Damon Stoudamire, Marcus Camby, Tracy McGrady, David Lee (at 30) , Ariza (at 44). He didn't blow lottery picks time and again like BK.

Isiah was a horrible GM but a much better drafter than BK.

Lets not forget that BK has never had a winning record as a GM.

Name the last five drafts from New York that Isiah drafted.

completing the list above:

Kupchak ((Bynum, Vujacic, farmar with just one lottery pick)

Seriously?? In this case you can put Marvin in the same category.

Walsh (Reggie Miller, Granger, Al Harrington, all picked lower than 10)

These players are from different eras so how long did this take and where is the championship?

Pat Riley (Wade, Butler)

Great but in the same boat as the Hawks and with less players to boast(Yeah they made it to the playoffs but championship came with trading alot of talent via Celtics).

Sam Presti (Durant, Green, russel westbrook)

:thumbsupsmileyanim: but they haven't made the playoffs yet!!

John Paxson (Hinrich, Gordon(lottery/gone), Deng, Duhon(gone), Nocioni(gone), Rose)

Still rebuilding, still no championship!!

Donnie Nelson (Devin Harris, Josh Howard)

Is this the best you got?

Geoff Petrie (Stojakovic, Williams, Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin)

Yeah I remember their championship. lol :thumbsdownsmileyanim: Gerald Wallace = Boris Diaw funny their on the same team. Kevin Martin is their current best player to boast? Besides Williams(good but did he make an allstar team? I can't remember), Stojakob*tch was a choker and Turkoglu took awhile before his talent/skills were even realized.

And most of these haven't had as many lottery picks as he did. Now, to return the challenge: name the GMs who has passed on as many good players as he has.

Good try but you need alot of :help wanted3: to make these hold versus BK.

First of all, a GM is not evaluated by how good a team is, but how good it could be. We all agree that McHale was bad as a gm, and yet he's had more success than 80% of the gms out there. Why? Because he wasted years of good picks through the joe smith fiasco, he consistently did bad trades and wasted money on bad character guys. Chris Wallace had some success in boston. Took the team to the ECF, which is more than the hawks have done in decades. Was he a good GM? No. The list of players he traded away or passed on the draft is enormous.

Bad character guys. Yeah our draft picks are reckin havoc in da A. All the jail time, fines, suspensions,etc.. Might as well call us the Jail Blazers part two or the ATL bad boys. :laughing5:

Josh Smith, Boris Diaw alone trumps this. Rondo is a trouble maker. Jefferson is good but is he(the same could go for Horford)??? The rest are serviceable(Solo,Acie,Salim well maybe not currently). Seriously though is this the best example? If so it doesn't make BK look that bad with his biggest comparison being Ainge.

With growth comes maturity and maturity for Josh means more focus. Josh has showed flashes of all of his skills since he got into the league. Once he continues to focus on the game consistently( which I think he will show this year) this will definitely be a part of his breakout year(s).

Hawks 111

Nuggs 101

Smoove 26 pts. 13 rebounds player of the game.. :beer11:

Pretty good for a prediction!!

Many of us did give credit to BK for his good moves (JJ and Bibby trades, drafting Smith at 17) but bringing up his name now just reminds us of what could have been.

Understandable!! But we are all grown hopefully and we got to look at what we have now. True BK is no longer with us(at least on the payroll) but the core that he used to build this team is still present to this day. How can you like the team without giving some credit to the person that built the team? Simple question for adults young and old and would of could of should of's should be left for that type of post. This was not one of those. This was suppose to be a reality based grown man topic showing appreciation where it was due. Point Blank.

Pretty much any one of them except Elgin Baylor and John Nash (former GM of Portland). Bickerstaff did a pretty poor job in Charlotte. I can't really think of anyone else who was as bad as BK.

Isiah was a horrible GM but he drafted rings around BK. Portlands current GM Prichard pisses on BK. The Blazers had the worst record in 2006 but had terrible luck in the lottery and wound up picking 4th. However he still managed to come away with the best two players in that draft, Roy and Aldridge. San Antonios GM Buford has made great use of late firsts and seconds. He drafted Parker late in the first and Ginobili in the 2nd. He also drafted Scola but later traded him to Houston.

Babcock was a pretty horrible drafter as well. Other than Babcock, Baylor and Nash i would say almost every GM was better in the draft than BK.

Conversation Terminated not only did you not answer the question( Who has a better drafting record than BK). Pau Gasol, Boris Diaw, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford, Josh Childress to name a few (Regardless of where they are now, there should not be no denying these are pretty good players). But you attack back with the bold statement above and really it's hard to even read the rest of your paragraph.

I do not hate Billy Knight. I just think he was a below average GM. Furthermore, you calling me and others "fools" just because we have a different opinion indicates at least some moderate hate on your part. Billy Knight is not a fool, moron, or idiot. He is a college educated intelligent human being. I just think he was a less than average GM when it came to making draft day decisions.

You think calling me and the others here a fool, who do not share your opinion, makes you a winner; once you lose all composure in a debate and revert to name calling, you are the one who has lost....of course that is just my opinion also!

A fool is only based on actions. Anybody can be anything at any time depending on their actions. I just feel that it's kind of foolish to celebrate accomplishments or the makeup of our current team without at least giving credit to those that took part in building the team. Yeah it was a slow process but a steady process and we can all (hopefully) see the dividends. We've(Most Hawks Fans including myself Vaughn and Lue were not my favorites) ridiculed BK for all the actions he did or didn't make but we can't give any credit when we see the latter results?

The reason I did not quote this is I do not need a half page rant to get my point across; and I have already done that. With the exception of Horford, BK blew to some extent every lottery pick he had.

The title of this thread is Kudos to Billy Knight and Rick Sund. It is not "I am so happy we are a playoff team." So the gist of the title is BK and Sund have both done a good job and should be appreciated. You don't think people should bash BK who is two years removed; yet think its ok to give him praise. Like I said, it appears yours and Sillents is the only opinions you wish to hear ...

Sorry I got you two confused; but my point is still valid. Don't read this thread if you don't want to read a differing opinion. And furthermore, if you want to read about other teams past and present GM's and their drafts, you need to go to a different portion of this board or to their board. In case you have not noticed this is the HomeCourt portion of a Atlanta Hawks board; so posting threads about Bret Farve or another teams GM would be off topic. Who is not paying attention now?

Damn!! I thought for sure BK drafted Smoove (Marvin, Horford, Childress, Salim, Solomon, Mario, Law) who all undeniably have skills and just because they didn't make it in our system or a system for that matter BK f***ed up? Even Sheldon is servicable(ask the Boston Celtics) but just because they didn't turn out/or weren't picked to be a Paul, Roy or Deron there is problems. Naw, I think if we would have picked every player us fans wanted that there would be problems whether it hit us now or later. Say what you want but you are going to end up laughing (bandwagon, I see your type all the time) with those who have the last laugh(us, who already knew better). Please continue the hate it will make the statements of those with understanding and appreciation look that much better!!

"Quote this, I ignore ignorance and arguing with fools will only make you a fool" so I'll be the first to apologize for my foolish ways!!

Playoffs baby playoffs!! All the Elite( playoff teams especially in the east have good bigs to boast). It will be an advantage in the playoffs to have depth in the front court position that can work(foul/frustrate/defend) the other bigs at times when it really counts.

Yeah, nothing against Teague but I wanted Lawson all along. A more traditional pg who is just as quick.

Yeah I only said this because with our small front court we need somebody big or athletic at the point guard position. If not we'll just be the suns from a couple years ago which will be exciting but won't grant a championship (defense wins championships).

I agree. Also, if he played SF, he would be a non-factor on help D in the lane and wouldn't be able to utilize his league-best shotblocking skills.

Josh is playing the best of any Hawk so far this year. If he can consistently have nights like he did last night, he'll be an All-Star in no time.

I said this, people doubt, time will tell!!

Man I still wish we got Lawson. He is going to be a really good pg in this league.

Refing is absolutely horrible tonight. I think the league office should review the officials from tonight.

hungh!! You know we got Teague right?

We need to improve our defense. But other than that I am pretty happy.

Yep!! It's not improving our defense that will make us lose against teams like the Bobcats(Another Wake up call game). We won't be as good as we can be until we learn to bring intensity every game against every team on offense and definitely defense.

Do we really need to have two threads about how BK did a good job? One is stupid enough, but two is crossing the line. Please go back to wherever you both came from.

Are you Ernie. I know I've seen you on some show/movie before. What a character!! :laughing5: