crimedog

As of today, Smith. He has the rarer skillset and until Al shows me he can consistently create for himself on offense or be a lockdown defender, I'm sticking with Smith. That being said, I love both of them and see no reason to make it an either/or deal. I can see why Smith's contract situation and the shiny new-ness of Horford would tilt it in Al's favor for some.

Wow... I wouldn't mind subbing out Marv for JRich. I do think we need some shooting from our 3 spot. For Smith though? I know you think the world of Horford, and I think he can be something too, but as of right now he is an OK defender and a decent garbage man on offense. He doesn't really create his own shot yet, which Smith does (for all his faults, he is one of the two shot creators we have on this team) and he certainly doesn't protect the rim like Smith. Our defense is absolute garbage with Smith out of the game, he is literally the difference between our defense being around average and our defense being worse than the Knicks. This trade idea seems to have been made for shock value more than anything substantive.

Anyway, on top of all that Broussard didn't say anything we didn't already know. Brand has no reason to give away 5 million dollars next year, we know how much cap room Philly has, we know they want a PF, we know Jamison and Smith are the best ones on the market, and we've heard for ages that the ASG might not want to spend a lot of money on anything. This is speculation pure and simple.

Quote: Let's say that we decided (for whatever reason) to SnT Smoove. Considering that he is BYC we will only be able to take back about 6 million for him in return salary unless we add in other players, which I don't think is a good idea since it would create additional holes. So with that in mind, who are some players in the 6 million and under range that you would be willing to SnT Smoove for? Here are some options for me: Rudy Gay Andris Biedrins (with a 1st) Al Jefferson Hedo Turkoglu (with a 1st) Andre Iguodala (with a 1st) Greg Oden (I'd also add a future 1st) LaMarcus Aldridge (with a 1st) Brandon Roy Chris Wilcox (with their lotto pick) Tyrus Thomas or Joakim Noah (with their lotto pick) Udonis Haslem (with their lotto pick) Those all seem like fair deals from our perspective, I wouldn't consider Rudy straight up fair but other than that... That being said, it being fair and it being desirable are two seperate things right? Outside the Oden one (which they wouldn't touch), I wouldn't really push to do any of those.

eh, I think that analysis of JJ's game is a little revisionist. I agree that he was a more refined offensive player but he wasn't necessarilly more effective. JJ at the time was a 17ppg-5rpg-3.5apg player with solid D and good shooting efficiency from beyond the arc but he wasn't creating his own shot too often (only got 2 FTs a game). He had never been the focal point of an offense for longer than a couple minutes while Nash rested (and the offense was always a atrocious when Nash rested, although thats more of a system thing than a player thing). Joe's season was something of a breakout that year, he had a TS% of 55.6%, which is good but the season before when Nash wasn't around he had a TS% of 49% which is really bad for a guy with such a good jumper... As far as "shutting Smith down", he isn't an offensive prodigy by any means but even in the playoffs, in Boston, the kid was drawing double digit free throws against the one of the best man defenders at the position in the history of the game. Here is my thought. JJ was a gamble, he had been a below average wing with some potential before Nash arrived and once Nash was there he was a slightly above average wing with a lot of potential but he was doing a lot of spot-up shooting from deep in PHX which is a big reason he wanted to leave. Atlanta needed a go-to scorer, which Joe had never been (never close to it really) but we saw the potential and gambled. You have to gamble in this league. At this point Smith still has some questions but he is ALREADY and extremely effective player who has never had the benefit of playing with an average point guard, let alone a great one, for a season. In a league that is ruled by talent, you really can't afford to lose a guy who is already this good and has the potential to be so much better and only get an average center back in return - balance does not outweight talent. Look at the Pistons with Sheed, neither Sheed nor Wallace was a true C. There had always been questions about Sheed's drive and character, but the Pistons wanted to win so they gambled on talent. Not a perfect example but I think it shows that you should try to accumulate as much top-end talent as possible. ... and while Smith is definitely the biggest draw on the team (a lot of bball fans up here in the northeast ask me about him when they find out I'm from the ATL), I agree that him leaving wouldn't affect ticket sales in and of itself, but when you lose your second best player, the one who made the biggest impression in the playoffs, and don't replace him with a similarly talented player, your team will be worse and sell fewer tickets for that reason.

Quote: LOL! Greg Oden has good touch...LMAO. Did anyone watch him at OSU? He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if it wasn't a thunderous dunk. I only watched a few games but his FT was worse than Shaq. lol. Worse than Shaq? a) That is factually incorrect and if you don't have the presence of mind to look at the numbers your opinion doesn't matter and b) he is a right handed player who was shooting FTs with his left hand because of a torn ligament... but he was still more accurate than Shaq. D, he has good touch around the rim which is where he will be taking most/all of his shots. He is a true center and doesn't need an outside game.

Quote: Quote: Oden doesn't have good hands ... damn, must've messed that homework up. Haha, I think you may have missed my attempt at humor here CD. It's pretty obvious that Oden has exceptional hands for a big man. I only reinforce that here because you were spot on. I am in full agreement. Haha, my bad. Thanks for the backup.

Quote: Josh needs to continue working on his jump shot during the offseason and become a legit threat from the 3 point line. His post game could use a little refining and I'm sure that another summer of working on that and he can become an All Star next season. At this point I'd be thrilled if he could work his jumper to the point where it was, "something other than a liability from midrange". 3pt. threat just doesn't seem realistic to me, hopefully I'm dead wrong. His post game was looking decent this year, he definitely has some work to do still but the improvement from the season before was absolutely huge. The turnovers seemed to go down a little once Bibby got integrated, over the last two months of the season his TOs dropped down to a little over 2 a game. I'm not sure if that is a statistical anomoly but I think the Bibby theory makes sense (just as Bibby's garbage-ness in the playoffs was reflected in an increase in TOs as other guys tried to make up for him as a playmaker). I'd hope his shot selection and shooting percentage go up, it seems like we could have run a lot more pick and rolls for Josh/Al with Bibby. We'd run a whole bunch in one game to pretty good success and then not go back to it for games. That would keep Smith away from the perimeter and give him some high percentage looks. My thought is that Chillz and Smith should never be on the court together if we are going to slow it down and be in the half-court. Chillz is less of a perimeter player at this point than anyone on the team and when he's in the game it makes it hard for anyone to penetrate which keeps Smith out on the perimeter for the kickout jumper from Joe's postup at the FT line. Anyway, my point is that the TOs should go down because of Bibby and the FG% should go up. If we found a way to put Smith on the baseline or the high post in the half court, Smith's FG% would go up even more because he wouldn't take those long 2s and he'd be getting more offensive rebounds. On defense, hell, just hope for more of the same.

Quote: I think a major difference between Odom and Smith is that Smith is much more intense, in my opinion. I think that mental attitude will make a huge difference in their careers. I am not sure that Smith will ever have all the tools Odom has on offense but I do think he is a player who just wants it more. Yeah, Smith is a lot more aggressive than Odom. Smith sure as hell has his share of retardedly bad games on offense but he is usually aggressive, to a fault much of the time. Someone earlier said that they hoped Horford's toughness rubbed off on Smith, in the same vein I hope Smith's aggressiveness and confidence rub off on Horford. Betting on Smith "putting it all together" is a gamble because he is still so raw, but if he does, he'll be scary because he has a ton of confidence to go along with the physical package.

Quote: I think what is more likely, is that you will see a drop off in Oden's blocks per game.. the same way that you saw in Shelden's. Shelden may not be taller than more Centers... but what about Sf, SG, PGs. Blocking shots in the NBA has been reduced to quick leapers (like Smoove, Marion) and guys with exceptional hand eye coordination (like Camby). Oden is neither. Even a guy like Tim Duncan (who athletically is similar to Oden) average 2.4 bpg (1.9 bpg recently) after having averaged 3.76 bpg in College. With the speed of todays players, i don't see this great timing that you're talking about with Oden. Beware, he just might be foul prone. Gotta disagree. For one Oden is a lot more athletic than Duncan (although not nearly as skilled), the whole appeal of Oden is that he has such an amazing physical package in terms of explosiveness, strength, and agility. What about guys like Brand and Kaman? Both are excellent shotblockers but neither is a better athlete than Oden and neither has the same reach as Oden. Look, I understand your point that not everyone lives up to the hype and not every young number 1 overall pick pans out but at the end of the day it is you against the scouting world (who, admittedly have been wrong many times before) saying that Oden isn't athletic, doesn't have good timing, and doesn't have good touch. The only thing that isn't subjective is the athleticism part, he is extremely athletic for a guy that size and strength. Anyway, we can agree to disagree on how good fo a prospect he is/was. If the Blazers were retarded enough to agree to your proposal, you'd have my vote.

Quote: Quote: There is a reason Roberts didn't go in the lottery and Oden was the number 1. He is a better prospect with a better body and more skill. You don't think he has good timing? He blocked over 3 shots a game. You don't think he had good touch? He took hook shots exclusively with his off hand. You are obviously a Horford fan, Oden was better at every facet of the game than Horford while being significantly younger. His knees could be a concern down the road if they keep him from playing but if he's on the court he's gonna ball. First off, Roberts coming out of LSU didn't go high was for several reasons: 1. He dropped out of LSU after 1 year and went to play in Europe. 2. By the time he came back to the NBA draft (1 year later) he was overweight, out of shape, and had a diet pill addiction. Anybody who remembers LSU ball when they had Shaq and Roberts knows that Roberts was a beast. He could have gone top ten in the 1990 draft but he missed the deadline. Stories out of LSU said that Roberts would own Shaq in practices. I think they met while Shaq was a Magic and Roberts was a Clipper (out of shape on bad knees)... I think Roberts owned him then too. Now, Oden is not going to end up like Roberts because I hope he has more character. However, Oden does have the bad knee. Not a good way to start off his career. Lastly, Blocking 3 shots a game doesn't speak about timing. Hell, Shelden blocked three shots a game in college. Blocking 3 shots a game means that he was big. In fact, look at this: Bradley = 5.2 bpg BYU Drob = 4.1 bpg Navy Mourning = 3.8 bpg Georgetown Mutombo = 3.7 bpg Georgetown Shelden = 3.7 bpg Duke Oden = 3.3 bpg OSU In short, I don't think 3.3 speaks to his timing. Especially not with Shelden on the list. Like we see in Shawn Bradley.. i think we see that when you're bigger than everybody else, you get more block opportunities. Shelden did have good timing, he's just not particularly explosive and his arms don't reach high enough to block shots in the NBA. Oden is like all those guys in that he is both tall and athletic enough to get to a shot and has good enough timing to make the block... all those guys except Shelden are some of the greatest shotblockers in the history of the NBA (including Bradley) and Oden was comparable to all of them as a freshman with a torn ligament in his hand, what does that prove? As far as Roberts, I'm not sure I get your point... Since they are both big, Oden is going to turn into Roberts? Then you said that Roberts actually was talented but he put on too much weight, but Oden wouldn't do that... How does any of that relate to anything? If you don't think Oden is an elite prospect thats fine but give a basketball reason other than "Stanley Roberts was big and he wasn't good but he could have been good but he took too many pills but Oden won't do that so Oden won't be that good", because it doesn't make sense.

Quote: Quote: you gotta have balls to toll with the punches and taking on the D right out of the gate is OK with me. Welcome. Aw, don't give him too much credit now. It ain't that hard when you're right. Oden doesn't have good hands ... damn, must've messed that homework up. Soft touch with his off hand (and his dominant hand, you just didn't see it because you he had ligament damage) and his hands are incredibly strong - he only got the ball ripped three times in his frosh season even though he had a brace. Anyway, I know enough about the kid because an old friend of mine is a sports journalist in Indy and covered some of Oden's games in HS. He said that Conley was really impressive in HS too. Back to that list, I'd love to get a shooter/defender of the Stevenson/Anthony Parker mold and throw him on the wing opposite JJ. Marv may be an above average player one day but he's gonna cost a lot of money and he won't be special, I'd be fine moving him for someone that fit.

Quote: Quote: You are obviously free to form your own opinions of the kid but he has size, strength, greath hands, great timing, and great touch. He also completely dominated one of the better front-lines in recent college ball history. He had one knee surgery and seems to have more going on mentally than Roberts, as well as being a better basketball player. Back to fit though. Every team is built for a good low post scorer - I've never understood the fascination with Aldridge. R U Oden's agent? You sure sound like it. I guess we can say we'll have to wait and see. Moreover, Roberts was not a bad player. I remember the early days, he would dominate Shaq. The problem was those knees. Back to Oden though... I don't remember great touch... or great timing. Moreover, his best game in the NCAAs was against UF. I think you should examine the road to the finals for Oden. There is a reason Roberts didn't go in the lottery and Oden was the number 1. He is a better prospect with a better body and more skill. You don't think he has good timing? He blocked over 3 shots a game. You don't think he had good touch? He took hook shots exclusively with his off hand. You are obviously a Horford fan, Oden was better at every facet of the game than Horford while being significantly younger. His knees could be a concern down the road if they keep him from playing but if he's on the court he's gonna ball.

Quote: You do realize the Rockets won before Clyde with essentially all homegrown talent? Well Mario Ellie was a FA, but basically they slowly built that team up. You look way too much at the present when you are evaluating how to win, very nearsighted if you ask me. Not to mention, our franchise player (Joe) was acquired via FA. The Hawks certainly have the peices in the Joshes, Al, Bibby/Zaza's contracts and Marv to pull off some big trades but there isn't a KG-esque multiple time first-teamer, former MVP still in his prime, legit superstar out there on the market. Boston's dealing required a lot of balls but it also required a lot of luck. Jermaine O'Neal isn't Ray Allen Calibre when he's healthy, which is half a season nowadays. I think Hawkfanatic makes a good point, you can't just look at how a team that won a chip got there and assume that you have to take that route. If the trade market doesn't look that fertile, don't make the trade because you think you have to.

Quote: Glad for your view. I just see it like this... 290... Without Shaq ability and bad knees means Stanley Roberts. There's nothing wrong with Stanley Roberts. The only problem is that he's not Shaq. In PTL, Oden will get some run, but just like Randolph and Pryz before him, they will find that he slows the offense down and on defense, when he doesn't get back, he doesn't help. They're not built for him. The good news is that they have Aldridge there. Aldridge is a stud and he fits. Maybe, maybe not. Don't forget, the Blazers played at the second slowest pace in the league last season. Only Detroit was more plodding, seems like the perfect situation for a defense-oriented big man to me. Pryz didn't really slow down the offense so much as he doesn't play offense. He doesn't have the hands or the instict for it. Randolph? Well he is a low efficiency chucker, he has a back to the basket game but he doesn't use it nearly enough - 60% of his shots in his last season in Portland were jumpers. He bogged down the offense because he took a lot of shots but wasn't particularly efficient with them and he wasn't drawing the D in the low post particularly often. Its a far cry from the middle volume - high efficiency player Oden tends to be. You are obviously free to form your own opinions of the kid but he has size, strength, greath hands, great timing, and great touch. He also completely dominated one of the better front-lines in recent college ball history. He had one knee surgery and seems to have more going on mentally than Roberts, as well as being a better basketball player. Back to fit though. Every team is built for a good low post scorer - I've never understood the fascination with Aldridge. He is like Smith is some ways, where Smith could be a much higher efficiency player if reigned in the long jumpers, Aldridge could be a lot higher efficiency if he weren't so terrified of the painted area. Both guys have it in them to be more effective offensive players but you wonder if they'll ever "get it". At least with Smith you have an elite defensive presence.

It doesn't really matter if he likes our team, in a league like the NBA that is based on talent, you don't choose your players based on what your mediocre coach wants. That being said, I'm sure he wants a couple shooter/defenders on the wing and in the backcourt and some bodies in the frontcourt and he's right. I'd be agreeable to a Redd trade, we'd have to get a little bit lucky and hope that Hammond really wanted to start over and we'd have a little bit of trouble filling out the rest of the bench but you have to start with the talent and work from there. Artest is another guy that would do wonders for the team but Ron-Ron makes Smith look disciplined out there, I don't mean to say that he is out of control on the court, he just doesn't listen to his coaches and Woody has never been the type to command the respect of a golden retriever let alone a wild card like Artest.

Quote: Quote: Quote: 4. Greg Oden. Yep. Shut my mouth. I know some don't believe in Oden. Neither do I. But I would think that with all the Centers in PTL and the shot to get another one in the draft, they may consider trading this ubber talent for another ubber talent (Marvin) I really hope this was a joke Diesel. The entire free world would trade Marvin for Oden, and probably the not-so-free, too And, um ... Portland? ... Well, let's just say they're not interested. Bob, there you go again, typing and not researching. Oden is no sure thing. Remember, his offense was suspect on the college level. His knee is injury was pretty bad. He has gained a lot of weight. But most of all... PTL at 9, will be in a position to take D. Jordan if they want a big or they can go after a PF and put Aldridge at C. I know its bad form for a new poster to go after a vet like this but I have to disagree with this on a lot of levels. Suspect offense in college would be DeAndre Jordan. Oden put up 16ppg on 62% shooting as a one handed freshman which favorably compares to the (two-handed) freshman seasons of Tim Duncan and Shaq. Oden as a freshman with a cast on his wrist was better at every aspect of the game except passing than Al Horford as a junior - that is scoring, rebounding, and defeniding. Not to mention he made Al look like a little girl when they were matched up in the finals. The knee injury is a concern because it could lead to him missing time but his game isn't based on explosiveness as much as it is on size and power. At the end of the day he's still going to be a 7-foot 275lber with unbelievable hands so he can do his work in the post without having to faceup and explode off his knee a la Amare. The weight he put on? All muscle, he's been hitting the gym for hours a day... a little too hard because McMillan said he didn't want Oden playing at 290 til next year, regardless, that is Chamberlain size. There is a reason he is a once in a generation prospect and Marv Williams won't get you that caliber of player.