mudderfudder77

Well, Nene is a Power Forward, don't think he really qualifies.

Quote: Check it out we have two superstars and don't even know it look at the positional rankings for Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. http://fantasysports.yahoo.com/analysis/news?slug= bf-sfrank-05&prov=yhoo&type=lgns&league=fantasy /nba We are absolutely in the playoffs this year if this holds true (JS #8) -- in fact while JS and JJ get props our most consistent force Al Harrington is not even on the radar screen. Josh Childress is also MIA and don't even mention our pre-season secret weapon in Za P. Yes I am being a little sarcastic however I do think Josh Smith is going to be a way above average player. When ever you see a cat that young playing both ends of the floor (blocked shots) and seemingly very responsive to the coaches you are probably looking at a baller. The question is how quick? Josh and Josh both had very inspiring springs at the end of last season --- and now we add JJ and Za to the mix --- I still think the key is in Woodsons hands on how quick he can develop the players --- because raw athleticism is not a problem on this team. Playoffs? LOL!

Quote: Point being Jordan wasn't a point guard but Ron Harper was for most of those championships. Harper was a converted SG and did quite well for the Bulls in that he provided what they needed. That said I hope that J.J. provides a lot more for us than Ron Harper did for the Bulls. By the way who were the Bulls center's in these championship years? I would venture to say they were on about the same par as ZaZa so there is a flaw in your plan as the two most important hardest to fill spots. On another note J.J. is here and I am glad of it. It instantly gets a lot of people interested in the Hawks again. I don't care what position he plays because he makes us better. I would much rather have a J.J. and Childress backcourt than a Deron/Paul and Childress backcourt. Just my two cents Actually BJ armstrong was the point guard for the first three championships. But that doesn't really matter, because Pippen controlled the ball, and usually started the triangle. Harper was a converted sg, but in the Chicago offense you essentially had two SG's playing. They din't handle the ball as much as Pippen, or Kukoc did. As for the Chicago Centers, Cartwright was a hell of a defensive player and gave them just enough offense. Longley was a big body, but by then they had arguable the best defenders in the league with Jordan, Pippen, Rodman. You can't compare JJ to the point guards during the Bulls Championship years - you play an entirely different offense, and JJ will be counted on to handle the ball, distribute... While the Chicago PG's never had that responsibility.

Quote: "49 wins? I'm willing to put up $50 right now against that" Ok, how do you suggest putting it up? What is the bet perspective for me? If the Hawks win 50 or 48, then I lose? Paypal, if the Hawks win 49 or more games. You up for it?

Quote: kinda like u and marvin? LOL Zing!

Quote: 2. Do you disagree that only three non-Hawks have averaged more minutes/game? Of course you don't. It's why I'm being cautiously optimistic about JJ, Childress, and Harrington. They're playing a lot more minutes vs. bench warmers than they will in the regular season. It's called the "John Salmons" rule. I've mentioned this a couple of times myself. Al has looked very good, but lets remember most teams are only playing their starter 20-25 minutes while the Hawks appear to be averaging 30 minutes plus.

Quote: Quote: He can shoot lights out, but he can't get his own shot and wil always be dependent on getting the ball in a position to shoot - guys like that don't win scoring titles. That's not true. Of course I agree that Salim will never win a scoring title, but he is more than a pure shooter. He proved himself to be a flat out scorer in college, and one who rose to the challenge of big shots. He can score in a variety of ways and lose his man. Right now he is struggling with NBA size and speed, but he'll adjust. He is not a damon jones who needs to be wide open to knock it down. I think he will impress you in the long run. I actually like Salim quite a bit, and you're right that he's not Damon Jones, but he's closer to Jones than he is Iverson. And thats the only way someone his size would ever win a scoring title is to have the skills & speed Iverson has. He was an above average athlete in college, but in the NBA his athleticism is average at best. I don't think he is ever going to be the type of player who can create with the ball in his hands. He can prove me wrong, and I'd look forward to it, because damn can he shoot the ball. But the reason he wasn't drafted in the first round, with all of that shooting talent, is because he doesn't have the athleticism.

Quote: Right. Those are the reasons he won't win the scoring title this year. You jockey yourself to put in guys that can rebound, pass, get assists, etc... However, at the end of the game it's the team that has the most points that wins. (ala Ben Gordon) Salim is on that track. It's just a matter of time when they learn to get this guy in the game earlier. His points in the 1st Quarter, are the same as the points in the 4th Quarter. He was no doubt a steal in the 2nd round. Now, how many times does Josh Childress name gets mentioned in the MVP talk? I think when he leads us to our 49 Win Season this year, that JC will be in the same breath as the MVP's this year! You've got to be kidding. Theres a reason Salim was drafted in the second round, and there is no way in hell or heaven that Salim ever sniffs anywhere near a scoring title. He can shoot lights out, but he can't get his own shot and wil always be dependent on getting the ball in a position to shoot - guys like that don't win scoring titles. 49 wins? I'm willing to put up $50 right now against that.

These guys can really have a positive impact on the team. While Andres Nocioni didn't always have good numbers in the Bull's box scores he was always more than willing to mix it up with the opponents, get under their skin, and become a distraction to those who had to guard him. He was a key reason behind the Bulls defensive turnaround, sounds like you guys might have a player in that same mold.

Quote: Quote: He is young,very talented, and unproven. He's young, BIG, and UNPROVEN... Nothing about him says talented yet. He just has size... However, his 6.5 rpg in 32.5 mpg speaks volumes... But, then, what does his 5.9 rpg in 23mpg say?

Quote: Think about it, there was more news on the dress code than the death of Jason Collier. That's huge. The last NBA player to die was Bobby Phils. Death in the NBA is not a normal occurance. We all heard when Cory Stringer died, when Len Bias died, however when Jason Collier died, if you wasn't a Hawks fan or in Atlanta or passing by the Hawks.com website, you didn't know. I hate to disagree with you Diesel, but Colliers death was front page Sports News, and was on the front page of the ESPN website. The reason it didn't garner as much attention as the other was because: A. Len Bias died of a drug overdose - which is big time tabloid news B. Hank Gathers died on the court C. Korey Stringer died on the practice field and his death triggered a huge lawsuit and changed the way many teams practiced. Jason died at home in his bed, as tragic as it was it was not tawdry like these other deaths - and was not "sexy" enough for national news media. Maybe thats fortunate for Jasons family that they didn't have to see it played out in the news every time they turned on their TV.

@Golden State.....L @LA Clippers.....L @Portland.....W LA Lakers......W LA Clippers......L Memphis.....L @San Antonio....L @Dallas......L @New Orleans.....W Boston.....L 3-7 A new PG and young players does not spell a good beginning.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, let me say again, I think the Hawks have a the makings of a good team. I just don't think it will happen this season, and I think they will struggle to score as they figure out everyones role on this team.

The difference is Steve Nash. Say what you will about him, but he was a big part of why they could outrun teams. Maybe JJ shows this year that he can run the floor and distribute like Nash did for the Suns, but I don't think it is going to be that way. And I don't discount experience, the Suns had it - this Atlanta team is very very young. Maybe in a couple of years, but I don't see it happening this season. Amare = 2nd best PF in the game Marion = 20pts - 11 rebs - 2 steals - 1.5 blocks Nash = 15 pts & 11.5 assists I don't see the hawks putting up numbers anywhere near those, they're just too young and inexperienced.

Quote: The old Celtics were not a great rebounding team , but they ran on every possession and wore teams down. Phoenix did the same thing. If you watched the games, they didn't run a great defense. Hell, most of the time, it was just standing in a position with their hands up. However, the reason it works so well is because the other team gets tired. In the middle of a game when legs get tired, defense looks good. Are you nuts? In their hey-day the front court for the Celtics Larry Bird - 10 rpg Kevin McHale - 9 rpg Robert Parish - 10 rpg In addition to being able to rebound the ball, that front court could play some hellacious defense.

Quote: Yet... Phoenix gave up 103 ppg and Atlanta gave up 102 ppg. If it were a case of mere percentages (FG) determining defensive output, then Atlanta would sure give up more points than Phoenix...NO? I mean, you give me a difference of 3% in the defensive FG%... That means that Atlanta should have been allowing 106 ppg on a Phoenix pace or Phoenix allowing 99 ppg on an Atlanta pace. But no way, we be that close... Unless there was something else at work. TEMPO.. The tempo that Phoenix used was so great that it overcame their mediocre defense. While we have talked about defensive, the key to winning for Phoenix was their offense. Their offense was efficient. They shot 47.7% from the floor. When you are that effecient, even with your defense giving up 47.6%... You will still win more than 50% of your games... It's not done by smoke and mirrors... Rebounding is not the primary reason... Hell, position for position, we are better rebounders NOW than they were last yr... It's about being a outscore uptempo team... I think we have the make up. We might not shoot as well from 3.. But I think we will score ... Unfortunately that is not how it works. What does that even mean, an outscore team? Every team in the league wants to outscore the other - the whole idea is ridiculous. The reason that Pheonix can give up more points, but have a much lower Defensive FG% than the hawks is because there are more shots taken in the Suns game. So even though Pheonix is playing better defense the oppont has more opportunities so the defensive score will be higher. I'm of the opinion that at this point you have no idea what you are talking about. In order to run, you have to rebound. You can not run if the other team is putting the ball in the basket - they will have time to get back on defense. Running starts with a defense and rebounding - as the defense crashes the offensive boards your big guys fight them for it while your wings/backcourt streak down the court for the outlet pass. That can't happen if the opposition is shooting 47%. Pheonix wouldn't have been able to run if they were letting every team shoot that high of a %. Don't get me wrong, I like the Hawks as a good young team, but to think they will suddenly become the Suns is ludicrous. If the Hawks want to win they need to learn to play defense and continue their offensive development.

Sorry, double post

Quote: I did my check... JJ played run and gun last season for 39.5 mpg. I did my check.... Stoudamire = 8.9 rpg Marion = 11.5 rpg. Suns = 44.1 rpg.. I think we can match if not surpass that. Quote: Pheonix gave up more points per game than the Hawks, but no one would argue against the fact that the Suns were a much better defensive team. Come on man. Phoenix was horrid on defense. The stats prove it, when you watch, you can see that there was NO concern about playing defense. Their main motive was to outscore... Right now, we are a much better defensive team than Phoenix was last yr.. MUCH Better. I guess for the rest, we will wait and see. Pheonix opp FG% .445 15th Atlanta opp FG% .476 30th Pheonix was in the middle of the league in defense, while Atlanta was dead last. The reason Pheonix could run was because they shot so much better than their opponets and they were able to get rebounds. If you can't force your opponent into bad shots, and you can't rebound the ball you can't run. Plain and simple.

Quote: Check your facts again Mudderfu We were a better rebounding team than Phoenix yet they scored upwards of 100 ppg and we didn't. When you run and gun, rebounding is a secondary concern. IF we were talking ball control, rebounding would be paramount. 2ndly, you say that only shooter we have is JJ... We have Salim, we have Delk, we have Lue. All of them shot over 50 3 pters over 35%. I think we look to be better scorers simply because we don't have Walk taking bad shots. For all the talk about his bad shooting, Chillz shot 47% from the field and JSmoove shot 45%. We have added a bonafide outside shooter to our starting lineup in JJ.. That will open the floor for our slashers to put up points... Even in preseason, we are shooting 49.7% from the field and 51.5% from the arc... That's good. So good that we are #1 in FG% In the League... HMM??? check it I think you need to check the number of minutes your starters are playing compared to the minutes other teams are playing. Your starters all seem to be playing 30-35 minutes a piece, Hell I think I saw JJ log 40 minutes the other day in a preseason game! When you run and gun, rebounding is paramount. How do you think you are able to run if you don't get the rebound? Pheonix was able to run because players like Marion, Amare, Q, JJ, were all good rebounders. Yes you have JJ, but you need more than just him crashing the boards, especially if you expect him to be running the break. Are you just going to let the other team score so that you can get the ball back? It's hard to run after your opponet scores and has time to get back. I'm beginning to wonder if you know what it takes to run. Pheonix gave up more points per game than the Hawks, but no one would argue against the fact that the Suns were a much better defensive team. Same with rebounding. The rebounds the suns gave up were on the offensive end, they actualy outrebounded their opponents on the defensive end - which allowed them to run. As for your shooters you mentioned, JJ is the only one that can get off his shot. Lue, Delk and Salim will all need to be set up. Who's going to be in the low-post drawing the double teams?

Quote: Again, Most of that is tempo driven. When you have a fast break going every time down the floor, you will get some uncontested layups from time to time that will help you "shoot better than everyone else". Phoenix did really well, until they played a team that could slow down the tempo... The only team that could really outshoot you last season was Seattle. I would love to have their blueprint too.. But we are a run, outscore you kind of team, similar to Phoenix. If we run, we will put up better shooting percentages... Plus we got JJ. It doesn't change the fact your team doesn't rebound, and other than JJ you can't shoot. In order to run the ball, you have to be able to rebound & play defense, neither of which your team does particularly well.

Quote: I don't think you know what you're talking about. TV ratings have nothing to do with "kids going to the game". Attendence was at its highest level in years last season. So obviously there are lots of people going to the games. The NBA is back on the uptick here. As I said, don't comment when you don't go to games and admittedly, don't watch many on TV. Ratings are down across the board for the NBA. Attendance means little to next to nothing. Most arenas have capacities of around 20,000. It the TV viewership & commercial sponsorship that drives David Stern and the NBA - and they are the ones making the dress code a necessity

He passed up open shots to prove a point. He didn't drive to the basket and finish and he passed the ball to a fault. Sorry, but I don't put somebody who puts themself above the team in the same category as KG.

Quote: umm, yes he does. kobe brings it every night. i cant name a game where i have seen him dog it. I don't know the date of the game. But Kobe went approx 40 minutes in one game without taking a shot, because the day before Jackson had criticized him. Was he bringing it that night - or pouting like a child?

Quote: do you even watch basketball? four players you can never say dont bring it every night. AI, KG, Kobe, Artest. those dudes never take a night off. never. always play hard. Ummm, you probably want to take Kobe off of that list. Kobe plays hard on Nat TV and when it suits him.

I understand that, but regarding the rebound differential - Pheonix shot .477 2nd in league while Atlanta shot .441 21st in league 3pt's Pheonix .393 1st in league and Atlanta .312 30th in league Thats what allows for the differential in rebounding. They shot better than everyone else.