RedDawg#8

Honestly, what killed us most was the Suns perimeter scoring. We missed not only Marvins perimeter, but Evans as well. SF's are "wing" players for a reason, they are best suited on the outer edges which is where we lacked on offense and defense alot of the game. Smoove isnt a wing player

Drew said all of Atlanta's power forwards and centers met his requirement to finish in less than seven minutes. Not all of the smaller players made their mark but Drew declined to reveal specifics.

When I read it I took it that the bigs had a requiremnt of 7 minutes to meet which they did, but the gaurds a different time limit to meet like 5 or 6 mins that all of them didnt meet. I would assume Drew wants his gaurds faster than his centers therefore is holding them to a different standard.

i doubt Collins is faster than any of our gaurds including Bibby

If they were our only offseason aquisitions id be happy with that.

I still prefer Tolliver as a backup PF tho. Dude produced as a starter

Great post, but honeslty some of the fans on here, would complain even if the hawks had won lol. Heck they complained the entire regular season. Even though we were pretty darn good. That's the norm around here, sadly.

Yeah, but I think it has to do with how we played alot of times and how we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot. For me I hate the fact that the past 2 seasons we started off very strong (esp this year) but got a certain point where we played .500 ball for the remainder of the year. We had the best record in the NBA like 20+ games into the season, yet started getting away from the things we did to get to that point like (offensive rebounds points in the paint and ft's). The fact that we GAVE away numerous games and finished only 6 games out of 1st in the division which very well could have changed the outcome of the playoffs. Thats whats most frustrating.

People say that this roster cant do this and cant do that, but the fact is this roster has dominated opponents before, this roster beat every playoff team at least once so this roster CAN do anything, its just a matter of consistency. If Drew could get this group to play consistent over the entire season, as well as maintain regular season success in the playoffs, then people wouldnt have much to say. But when you see us play like a champion one night and a D-league team another, it merrits the criticism.

I have faith though and continue to support our team. Im a ride or die fan til the end

I dont mean to feed the fire or anything but I was just doing some random research, comparing our players to our competition one by one, and I got to Marv vs Barnes last season and I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to see by stats alone, Barnes doesnt bring much more to the table than Marv. I say this because he was the guy most on this site were geeked about bringing in.

I think that when it comes down to it, some people here dont care who we bring in to play SF as long as they werent drafted 2nd in 2005 and they arent subjectively overpaid.

To that I say, the draft thing is a dead horse and yeah Marv may be overpaid to some, but look at Joe, look at Josh, look at freaking Zaza. We have trended to overpay our players to keep them and that isnt their fault. We all would take the money if we were in thier shoes. If we want to be upset about any player, and their performance lets blame the right peple. Either the man who drafted said player, offered said player more money than they deserved, or kept said player on the team if they are underperforming. For all we hoot and and holler about Marv, he didnt select himself, he didnt offer himself the contract he has (remember Sund extended the offer to him first), and for crying out loud he's not going to trade himself.

If you want to be mad, be mad at Sund. But as long as Marv or Joe or anyone else is here lets just hope to God that they surprise us by outperforming their contracts, live up to their potential or just plain bring us a championship. The day Marv is gone this exact statment will apply to whoever his replacement is. Until then, lets appreciate what we do have which isnt as bad as many make it seem.

Well Al has a wingspan of 7'0.75 a standing reach of 8'11 and a 35.5 in vertical. Are those numbers enough to compensate for his lack of ideal height?

I say yes, but if he added more weight (which would obviously lower his vert as well as center of gravity) I think he would be twice as effective.

unless Bibby, Marv or Evans is moved, I dont see us adding to those positions. Im ok with the PG situation, esp since JamCraw will have minutes at the 1. I would love Barnes but again theres isnt room for another SF for a team flirting with the cap.

As far as bigs:

Id love to bring in Tolliver as a rebounding PF/C and Aminu as the 13th man

and either Miller or Brown at C. Miller fits our sytem better offensively, but if Brown can slow Dwight then he has to take precedent over Miller. Honestly, if Tolliver could give him fits then i say Miller and use them both as an offense/defense combo

Answering this question. What we have on our books is a cap hold of 10.89 million for Chillz. If he signs with another team and we do not match, we no longer have that cap hold which gives us flexibility against the luxury tax but we would still be over the cap.

So is this case similar to Joe where if he leaves for another team, it hurts us more than getting something in return for him, even though with Chills he hasnt played for us in two years yet his contract was on our books?

This is getting off topic bit anyways since next year Drew says players will be held accountable too stay in front of their man, so there will probably be less switching and cross matching unless there is an obvious advantage for us/the oppenent in doing so. So whether Marv was "the best" wing defender we had last year doesnt matter since, assuming he is still here next season, him and Joe together will give us a strong tandem on defensae outside the arc to go along with presumably Teague instead of Bibby.

Oh please - OK - Marvin is our preimeter D stopper. He shuts down guys like Vince Carter and helps us to only lose in a 4 game sweep by barely over 100 points in four games. If it were not for Marvin's excellent defense we would have set the record for getting blown out in the playoffs by a much higher number.

Thank you so much Marvin - if you didn't shut down Vince Carter we could have lost by 150 points.

From AP:

"Vince Carter scored a team high 22 points to lead another dominating performance by the Magic, which finished off its second straight playoff sweep with a 98-84 victory over the Atlanta Hawks on Monday night."

im not calling him a stopper, I was just saying what the case was. Did we or did we not put Joe on pg's Bibby couldnt handle? yes. did we or dint we put Marv on the most and Bibby on the least dangerous wing afterwards? yes i.e- Marv vs Lebron Bibby VS. West or Marv vs. Vince, Bibby vs Barnes, etc

In the case of the game you listed, 22 points by Vince isnt exactly going off, but regardless Vince played 40 mins to Marvins 22 that game ,as we probably were tryign to shoot our way back into it (cant remember) but regardless, with that disparity in time played its safe to say all 22 of those point definately didnt come while Marv was in the game so I think that point is moot at best.

True or False,

if the Hawks dont match an offer for Chilldress, wont his contract (that we previosly offered him) come off our books?

As far as "guarding the opposing team's best wing" - that is total BS. If the opposing team's best wing is a SG Marvin doesn't guard him - Marvin doesn't guard D.Wade nor does he guard any of the other quality 2s...he simply guards who he is matched up against that night.

True. EXCEPT when said team has a PG that Bibby couldnt gaurd, in which case Joe gaurds the PG and then Marvin gaurds the best wing, and Bibby is placed on the remaining player. Seeing as tho Bibby couldnt gaurd 80% of the pg's in the NBA, that meant Marvin was left with the best wing 80% of the time.

So in the case of Wade, his pg was Chalmers who wasnt much of a threat. Or take the Lakers, Fisher wasnt blowing by anybody anymore so we could play them str8 up as well.

Joe and Marv are both great wing defenders so if Joe wasnt matched on a PG, everyone just gaurded their position.

Well, one of the reasons people mention Wade's age less often is because minutes matter as much as age:

Wade 17717

Johnson 25794

8000 minutes is a HUGE difference. So while Wade is just 1 year and a half younger than Joe Johnson, he has played the equivalent to more than three seasons LESS than Johnson.

But if you go there, you have to note that the reason Wade has so many fewer minutes is because he has missed so many games over his career due to injury.

Out of a possible 574 games, Wade has only played in 471 or 82% of them, missing approximately 60+ games to injury in 7 seasons. On the otherhand, Joe has played in 699 games out of a possible 738 or roughly 95% of them, missing about 30 games to injury in 9 seasons.

Wade, 37.6mpg, also has avg. more minutes per game than Joe, 36.9/

So in short, Joe has played more minutes than Wade because for 1, he had a two season advantage, but 2, he has proven to the more durable player even at an older age. Wade's style of play suggests that he will continue to suffer injuries in the future while Joe really has only had 1 major injury in his career. So again Wade is the Better player, but in 5 years he will be the one closer to the end of his career while Joe will still be making his living shooting from the outside.

I agree, if any player is more likely to decline due to age at the end of their contract, it will be Wade before Joe.

As far as the media goes, I think they along with some of us here, look at the franchise and can see it isnt the prototypical model that the league is used to, both in the front office and on the court, and their arent any "STAR" figures within our organization outside of Nique that they are in bed with.

What I dont get tho, is how the Hawks get a rep similar to the Falcons in terms of "losing history" (or if you want to use an NBA team then the Clippers). We historically arent a losing franchise. We may have had those many years of futility early this decade but we tend to have always had playoff caliber teams throughout our existece. In spite, its like ppl are actually waiting for us to go "back to irrelevancy" but actually, we have always been relevant in the NBA.

The argument about Joe's game decling as he gets older baffles me. The difference between Joe and most STAR wing players is that drawing contact is not a major facet in his game. He is not as physical as a DWade which is why even though Wade is younger, his body is much more worn down at this point than Joe's. Joe is a shooter mostly, and even when he does drive his 240 lb frame is big enough to take most hits and land on his feet. Most SG's that break down are the slashers who drive and get knocked down constantly.

Even though his contract is bad, it isnt because of the wear and tear argument. Joe's game will probably stay the same the rest of his career. Athleticism fades, but Jumpshots improve with age.

theres a difference between agreeing and signing. yes they cant officialy sign till the 8th

Thanks. The reason I was asking that was not to be a butt hole, but because with all the media reports coming out with a different story every 5 minutes because "Lebron or Wade met with team A and now player X is the favorite to go here," I just feel like none of it matters until the pen actually hits the paper, because when all the dust clears most of these scenarios will not play out. Joe being the biggest example of the media not being reliable rite now. Basically even if the FA's agree in principle with a team, they could still change their mind at the 12th hour because they see a better fit or more money with somebody else that another FA turned down (Knicks in specific).

With that said, Im just going to wait until I hear its official, even if most do commit tomorrow

What is the rule about July the 8th? I thought that nobody could officially sign until then unless it is with their current team. Is this correct or no? If so, then what Sekou said about FA's (including Joe) wating until then to see who OFICIALLY signs where first before they make decisions is very probable

Wait, which is the beloew avg game?lol Those are good numbers across the board, if he wasnt scoring he was rebounding, if he didnt rebound he scored 20+. Id take that performance from Smoove for the season: 19 pts 11 reb avg

As I watch the Atlanta Dream, I am convinced that our froncourt deficiency isnt a matter of skill or size. Our players just have "get after it" on the glass. point blank. Ask Dejuan Blair and Chuck Hayes. These guys just flat out get after it. They believe that the ball belongs to them no matter who they are facing. The only size we need to improve on our team is the size of their heart.

The thing is that the way both played at the BEGINNING of last season up until the 2nd half of the Thanksgiving game against Orl, nobody could complain about either of them. They were dominating during that period. So the potential for them to be great as a 4/5 duo is very real. What happened after that tho? im not sure but what is obvious is that:

Both are All-Star caliber at their current positions

Both are young

Both can be the face of the franchise

But

Both are PF's

Neither is a true C

Neither is a true SF

So thats where the "trade one for a stud PG, SF, or C" argument comes from. So then the debate is which one, and ppl have their reasons for both

Honestly, im in favor of Al over Josh mainly because of the maturity. Ppl say how Josh IS our defense or he is the emotional leader, but I believe that he holds us back as a whole until he decides to actually focus and get his head in the game. Thats why we play better when he is on, not because he is that good, but because 5 players are finally working as 1. If he wasnt a head case, he would be amazing but its about to be year 7 and he has shown no sign of maturity. How long do we except the "guilty pleasure" of a guy who dunks and blocks shots but continues to take bad shots, argues with refs while the other team is scoring, cant hit a free throw when it counts, and goofs off in practice and during the game.

Dont get me wrong, if we can I would keep both and try to bring a 3rd big who is a stud to play in a rotation with them (which i what i think the ASG wants to do), but when the argument is trade 1 keep 1, I choose Al over Smoove whole-heartedly. Smith has Shawn Kemps potential with Artest's/Rasheed's maturity. Look how long it took for either of them to get a ring. Josh is about 5 years from that point.

I feel like for a team that is young, athletic, is best when we are running, and plans on installing a motion offense with constant movement, Shaq as a 5 would not fit into those plans at all.

True, Defense wins championships, but I cant see him starting for the above reasons. He will be primarily used to slow down centers that Horf cant (which if Shaq is on our team becomes one less Horf has to worry bout). hopefully that doesnt mean we wont come into a game in full run/attack mode before we decide to stick him in and slow the pace down.

I know Teague didnt get enough minutes to prove or disprove he can be a starter but one thing he showed that makes me ? his abilty to start is he could not hit a jump shot to save his life. He really looked bad.

+1 Chaze.

Good point...........Teague is alot like a minny Rondo, and Rondo did not get enough time in his rookie year either.

i agreee

I agree with the Rondo comparison except for the "minny" part. They both are the same height with long wingspans. Rondo has bigger hands probably but Teague is much more athletic

but in addition to that, even if Teague doesnt improve his shot he is/would be a mini JSmoove. He can jump/dunk like crazy, and block shots.

Isnt that the only reason we love Smoove so much, because he "exites" the fans. Why should Teague be any different?

at least they both get us steals and assists tho too

I am VERY excited about the possibility of us adding a starting caliber center and if that's true it means that Josh is on his way out as it would seem odd that the team would want a starting caliber center if he weren't going to start and there's no way that they would trade or bench Al Horford. The question is who is that starting caliber center that would cause them to pay the luxury tax and would presumably be acquired by trading Smith?

I dunno. I feel like they are going to try to keep both Smoove and Horf. One of the main selling to points to Joe Johnson was that ATL was the only place he would play with top 10 talents at 2 positions in Smoove in Horf. I think that the ASG see's them and Joe as the"Core" of a championship team as they are an All star trio. I think that the plan is to move/acquire pieces to build around them. Im not saying this is right, I would move Smith myself, I just believe that this is how they are thinking

We got 3 ballhogs on the team lol. I wanna see how this turns out.

I know right. Craw and Craw have more in comin than their last name. Their games are a clone of each others. Whether we lose him sooner or later I would assume Jamal isnt in our long term plans based on his contract expiring and the redundancy of him and Jordan on the same roster.

Assuming Joe signs which by all accounts says he will, we now have 3 SG's on our roster. For all of Jordan's scoring ability and firepower we were raving about when losing Joe was a real possibility, it now looks like he will barely see the court this year. Neither him or Jamal are suitable options for many minutes at the 1. Should we have kept Damion James, who was great value at 24? Will we just wait until next season when Jamal's deal is up and simply slide Jordon into that role?

Hindsight is 20/20 but i really liked Damion James as a prospect and thought he could be an immediate help at the 3 as far as defense and rebounding. Here's our depth chart had we kept him:

PG: Teague, Bibby

SG: Joe, Craw, Evans

SF: Marv, James

PF:Smith,James

C: Horford, Zaza

Heres where we are now:

PG: Teague, Bibby

SG: Joe, Craw, Craw, Evans

SF:Marv, Evans

PF:Smith

C: Horford, Zaza

The James lineup would have given us more size, rebounding and depth at both forward positions

With our current lineup, we still lack a true back up SF, and are stockpiled with gaurds. Its almost certain that we will have to move one or more of them for a frountcourt player. Even if Pape Sy makes the team we still have to bring in a PF and Center worth a damn.

How much sense does our draft make now?