Watchman

7 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We're not doing a full rebuild. The only way to even do that properly would be to trade with the Spurs to get our firsts back. I don't think they would give them back for DJM. So on that front that's not even a feasible option.

Given our recent draft history, it would be better not to depend on the draft.

8 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

With John Collins TPE you need a player getting paid $23M or less.  A Siakam TPE would be a lot higher and therefore enable you to use it for an upper caliber player.  

That’s the idea, but we keep running into a brick wall trying to get Siakam.  

That and the fact that he's already overpaid and wants to be paid more.  If we're going to pay for a superstar, then let's go out and get a real superstar.

36 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We are in the same boat the Nets are in: you literally can't go for a full rebuild because you don't control your own firsts for three straight years. The Spurs raped us on the DJM trade. Giving up two unprotected firsts for a non top 15 player plus a pick swap was madness.

The story of this franchise under Ressler.

Pretty good money for a guy who has never averaged 10 ppg for a season or 10 rpg for a season.

On 10/12/2023 at 11:13 AM, SalvorMallow said:

Haha @NateMcMilkdud I love it! 

E

On 10/13/2023 at 2:11 PM, JustSomeGuy said:

@sturtthe fact that they got nothing in return for him was certainly not Atlanta’s choice but a reflection of his perceived value across the league. That’s not Atlanta’s fault. 

If Atlanta thought little of him, how much less do other teams think of him to not be willing to part with ANY assets of value to acquire him?

I can acknowledge that John was phased out of the offense and probably didn’t fit into the teams long term plans and even that he sacrificed for the team. I can also acknowledge that his game has significant warts. If he saw himself as a frontline player, those flaws manifested in far too much inconsistency and long stretches of non production on the court. That’s not Atlanta’s fault, that’s on him. Hell he lost touches to more productive players, anyone else willing to take the ball out of Trae’s hands to appease John? What about Murray? To do that is just asinine. 

But Clearly that’s Utah’s problem now given the quote above. The offense will not revolve around John, nor should it. And the irony in his comments about ego is he is the only player who has openly complained about touches on this team. Addition by subtraction is real. 

The trade was all about saving money for the owners.  Period. (Well, and to appease Trae.) They gave away Collins for a bag of chips and a half empty can of Coke.  There is not a single player on this team whose game doesn't have very significant warts.  It's okay.  You can admit it.  You don't like Collins. That's no secret.  I'm sure Collins did not expect the offense to revolve around him, but including him on a pick and roll every now and then would not be unreasonable.  Ask Embiid which player he'd rather defend on a PNR, Collins or Capella. Capella never posterized  him.  I've never seen Capella look down at the rim.  Sending Collins down to the corner and rarely, if ever passing the ball to him would frustrate any player, especially one with some degree of offensive ability.  Trae got his panties in a wad because Collins dared to call him out about moving the ball. around.  Criticism of Trae is not allowed without retribution.

On 9/1/2023 at 11:12 AM, Atlantaholic said:

Well let's see how he does this year. With how wing players get consistently overpaid and how we locked up Hunter. I was always of the idea that he was a sort of rental.

 Bey's out the door for a trade exception, a garbage contract and a second rounder.  Should have learned to keep his mouth shut.  Adios Bey.  Might as well get your matador suit ready.

15 hours ago, AHF said:

What has shocked you?  Unless I missed something Koonin’s statement is not at all shocking to me.  Obviously, sturt’s satire air quote “quote” of it isn’t the actual statement (maybe I missed Koonin saying fans have no choice but to be slaves to the religion the owner and front office are selling but I’m pretty sure that was sturt’s own take on the situation while Koonin’s statement was more more expected trying to find the silver lining on not getting a trade done by pitching the idea that JJ and other young players getting those minutes is a good thing.  What else is he supposed to say?

Whether we made a bad deal or not with JC (we did for 2023-24 basketball purposes) has nothing to do with my exchange with you above.  That can be true and it is still true that we have won some lopsided deals in our own favor.  The CC and Korver deals are actually great analogs for the JC and Huerter trades both in terms of talent imbalance and how good the players involved are.

The part where Koonin said we had addition by subtraction.  If I were Collins, when I came to ATL, I would be sure to make him eat those words.  There was no need for Koonin to be insulting.

13 hours ago, AHF said:

Most players fall into this category - ie players with a limitation who won’t put a team over the top by themselves.  The claim was that the Hawks are always on the short end of the stick and don’t get players in trades without giving up at least equivalent talent.  These examples prove that to be false but feel free to go with Mookie Blalock or Joe Johnson, etc. if they feel like more two-way players for you.
 

With regard to these players I mentioned, Capela led the league in rebounding and the team in advanced metrics.  Nobody will confuse him for LeBron but that is very meaningful production in my book.  Korver was the most important cog on offense in a the most exciting Hawks offense of say the last 15 years and an All-Star to boot.  His defense was better than I expected even though I’d concede he wasn’t a star defender by any means.  I don’t think that team wins 60 games without him.  Bey - I’ll say too early to truly judge that one.  I mentioned it because it was very recent and any trade where we give up only second round picks is a cheap price.  Given the price, I think we clearly got the better end of the talent divide which was the original discussion point.

I think just as we clearly lost the Huerter and JC trades from a talent perspective that we have clearly won some trades too.  The mere fact that Huerter isn’t a “complete player” who will put any team “over the top” doesn’t mean we didn’t lose that trade clearly from a talent/value perspective just like a similar wrap around players we acquired doesn’t mean we didn’t clearly get better value back with those trades.

Given that the discussion started with frustration over KH and JC I don’t think “complete player who pushes his team over the top” is a useful standard.

Given Koonin's statement, I am shocked.  You don't improve a team by giving away a good player for garbage. He is the PR man for the Ressler family. All we did was save the Resslers some money.  That is what is disgusting.  It's not like Collins was a locker room cancer or something.  Interesting the players they choose to overpay and not give it a second thought, and those they will in the future, so that they will remain in a perpetual cap crisis.  Maybe they'll continue to get "trade exceptions" that are worthless, junk players and second rounders.  The recipe for success, it is not.

On 8/30/2023 at 1:26 PM, Gray Mule said:

In spite of a terrible case of the Shingles, I press on.  08/30/36.  This is when I arrived!

Today I'm 87.  I've made it again!

Congratulations, Gray Mule!  Good to hear from you.  Sorry you had the shingles.  I know they can be really painful.  

I don't mean to be too nosey, but I was wondering if I remember you saying you lived in the Maggie Valley area?  I remember we always talked about  going there when I was a little kid, but I have little recollection of it.  However, a few months ago, I was looking at the street level satellite view on google maps, and the scenery there was beautiful.

On 8/26/2023 at 11:06 AM, sturt said:

I love camp, but this mindset is absolutely insane to me, from the standpoint of anyone who has been a ATL fan for more than 20 years.

Iow...

"They're highly distinguished authorities in their profession... an owner and front office whose decisions are always and completely about winning championships... and so their decisions are indisputably cogent, and it's not like any of us have any choice in the matter anyhow but to be submissive since we're all slaves to their religion. So, look, getting rid of John Collins represents an improvement for the roster... addition by subtraction... keeping him was holding us back... we're better without him... a logical impossibility to give JJ as many or more minutes than JC, so stop yer yammerin."

(Oh. I get it now, Steve. Thanks.)

Or, more concisely for the TL/DR types, and you know who you are...

Koonin translation:  "We saved my bosses some money, and that is the important thing. "

1 hour ago, AHF said:

That was exactly the case in trades like where we got Bey, Capela and Korver.

Bey - no defense; Capela - no offense; Korver - no defense.  All the people you mention had notable shortcomings.  It isn't like we got "complete players" in any of those deals.  They are limited role players.  Decent role players, but not players that were going to put us over the top.

I have been impressed with the play of Brady Manek.  He seems like he would make a quality bench player.

On 7/8/2023 at 6:35 PM, NBASupes said:

That contract was super ass. His lite verison of himself is only getting minimum offers right now. JC is a full MLE player right now at best. Worst f***ing contract. At least Koncak was a center in the early 90s where they were all overpaid.

He got paid more than Dominique Wilkins and Moses Malone.  That should have never happened, especially just based on a playoff series.   Malone was a center BTW.  I will be stunned if JC's production doesn't improve markedly playing for a team that will use him properly.  I wish he had a chance to play under Snyder's coaching systems before we gave him away for nothing.  I'll be shocked if the TPE ever gets used in full, as ownership just isn't going to pay the luxury tax.

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Gueye offensively is a 4 at this stage but so is JJ and defensively both seem to be 3s. Bey best defensively as a 4. 

Bey defensively is non-existent.

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

18.5 FGA + 4.0 3ptA + FT attempt..

 

ah... nevermind...

3 point FGAs are included in FGAs.  The NBA does not separate 2 pointers and 3 pointers like the ABA did.

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

That contract was super ass. His lite verison of himself is only getting minimum offers right now. JC is a full MLE player right now at best. Worst f***ing contract. At least Koncak was a center in the early 90s where they were all overpaid.

If Trae, KAT and Siakam are worth $50 million per year, it is easy to justify Collins making $25 million.

45 minutes ago, TheBigETrain said:

Not an ideal trade for Collins to get his game back on. He is not starting ahead of Markkanen. So he has to adapt to a bench role.

I think it will be Olynyk, who comes off the bench now, not Collins.

3 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

Why in the world would Portland take Capela over JB? 

Portland should tell Lillard and Miami that they're not going to accept Miami's garbage in exchange for Lillard.

8 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

So JB to ATL

Dame to MIA

Capela + kids/picks to POR? ( not necessarily all of our kids and picks )

If JB signs a supermax extension, he can't be traded for a year (correct me if I am mistaken Capologists).

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Definitely one of the better Hawks in the last 30 years. Like Koncak, got massively overpaid

That's quite an overstatement.  Koncak had one good playoff series averaging around 12 ppg and 9 rpg.  He never approached that level of performance again.

Collins had two 20/10 (or one 20/10 and one just short of 20/10) seasons.  His game suffered when the Hawks brought in Capela (whose game interfered with any player who played a game near the basket.)  

44 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

They fired funny, interesting, insightful Jeff Van Gundy, but kept boring as watching paint dry Doris Burke. 

When she was younger, she had certain *ahem* "thoracic assets", which her clothing used to display more prominently.  Now she dresses more conservatively,, and her age is showing more.  Who knows why they kept her over JVG??

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We're Waiting:

“Being able to create financial flexibility moving forward was a major priority for us. The added flexibility will give us greater optionality as we look at opportunities to improve our team,” said Hawks General Manager Landry Fields.

It might enable us to acquire an expensive player without spending as much, but it might handicap us with respect to future "optionality" (i.e. salary cap) Amiright?

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Just as an aside, I do think his declining play was very much akin to JC where JC had injury and suffered from playing next to Capela.  He and Gobert did not pair well and given Gobert's offensive limitations it took away some of KAT's best scoring so that Gobert could stand near the basket as much as possible.

I would tend to agree, but does that indicate that no team will ever go beyond a certain level with either Capela or Gobert?  To me they impede the overall effectiveness of a team as a whole.

7 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

 

Reminds me of a Hefty Trash bags commercial from several years ago..."Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy."