Crank

Weve watched basketball long enough to know better .

If jamal drove to the hole 30 time tonight he wont get sent to the line 20 time that we know for a fact .

Those fouls shots are league generated something they wouldnt give to jamal or joe or anyone on our team no matter what they did .

If anyone watched the entire series they would know that while Rose shot a ridiculous amount of fts the first two games he wasnt worth anything in games three or four and they won simply because The Pacers didnt have enough legit scorers .

You speak of logic yet give no reasoning for this post. How about you elaborate with numbers or tell us what is a better option?

You need a explanation on why Marvin shouldnt start for this team ever again ?

I think macdaddy was asking what you suggest for the starting lineup.

oh well if thats the case

ZAZA

Al

Josh

Joe

Teague

when you start Marvin its simply one too many "IFs " for my tastes on the road

That's the spirit. I suppose you support starting Pape Sy?

Nope I simply support sound strategic position this basically screams " I dont know what Im doing so ill go with what hasnt worked all year long "

dead in the water

I have to call this like I see it and give the truth.

Teague is going to have problems with Rose.

Teague is turnover prone and has been since College.

Teague doesn't have pure PG attributes.

Teague hasn't gotten enough PT over the last 2 yrs to breakout.

However, LD has to stick with Teague through his mistakes.

Crawford can't guard Rose. In fact, Crawford may allow Joe to move to the three.

Without Hinrich, this series becomes 10 times harder for us. Hinrich kept the balance. To expect Teague to do the same is wishful.

I would actually expect this to be a breakout series for Damien Wilkins before Teague...

What Teague will have to deal with Defensively is ISO-Rose...

ISO Rose is definitely hard to stop. Rose has an assortment of spin moves and moves to get him to the cup.

Against Indy, for the first 3 games, Rose lived on the FT Line:

21, 13, and 15... those were his attempts from the line.

I consider Collison a very good PG and a good defender. Indy had to figure out how not to foul.

The truth is Rose is not that great a shooter. His main asset is using his speed to get to the basket. Teague is fast.. but can he defend the assortment of moves that Rose has?

The dangerous players for the Bulls are Deng and Korver on the three point line. This is where Sorry Marvin scares me.

Since when has jamal not being able to guard someone stopped us from playing him there ?

We didnt NOT play jamal at point in 2009 when we went 3-1 he was playing the point in all those games along with Bibby matched up against Rose and back then we didnt fear Rose and everyone got time guarding him but at the end of the day we didnt change who were were to play them .

Jamal against the Bulls in 2009

4 games

32.8 mpg

7.0-13.8 .509 fg%

2.8-5.3 .524 fg%

20 pts 3 apg 3 rpg

Rose in that same situation

23 ppg 5apg 2 apg on 47%

Rose has improved but we cannot beat them if we try and change who we are to do it .

At a certain point its going to come down to jamal giving us quality minutes on Rose to expect Teague to do it seems like a team trying to create excuses .

LOL. Since when is Josh Smith a post player??? He thinks he's a 3-point assassin. Deng will have the easiest defensive assignment of his life. Unless something happens to make Josh Smith angry, all he is gonna do is stand around at the 3-point line hoping that somebody passes him the ball so he can prove to the world that he's one of the best shooters in the league.

LOL well Im operating under the premise that Josh will realize that he wont have a experienced post defender on him and will have learned his lesson from last series .

Dwight Howard is the Magic's best scorer. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Dwight Howard averaged 22.9 PPG in the regular season. Derrick Rose averaged 25 PPG. They both were #1 option offensively on their respective squads. It's the other 60+ points of offense that you stop on low percentage shooting to win the game

And the 25+ from Rose wouldn't be nearly as efficient as what you got from Howard. If you think Rose can score 60% from the field on Jeff Teague then you are being deliberately obtuse

Dude you dont even understand what we did against the Magic

there is no such successful strategy in the nba that employs that if a guard beats his man we wont help just let him score because there is no way he can outscore our team.

That is no what we did against Dwight Howard our strategy was intent on taking away the three point shooting .

We felt that twos were better than threes because thats what that team fed off of similar to how we used to fed off Smooves dunks.

The magic were a simple iso or pick and roll team . They either threw the ball in to Dwight on the post or ran the pick and roll with him,

The Bulls are not an isolation team they are not gonna clear out the side and let Rose simply go one on one . They are gonna run there offense sets so simply saying .

You seem to ignore things like steals,blocks etc that leads to transition baskets . The Bulls dont just score in one or two ways and they are much better defensive team than the magic whose defense basically consisted of Dwight.

At some point you have to realize that it was not that Dwight could not outscore us that won the game for us it was that they couldnt stop us . The Bulls are a much much better defensive team

Collins averaged fewer rebounds per game than Marvin and D12 was setting records with his rebounding stats against Collins in that series. So how does starting Collins improve our rebounding again? :blink:

We dont have to start Collins we can start Zaza and that gives us someone active who wants to be in the paint .

Start Zaza against Noah this gives Al a matchup against Boozer who is hurting and josh now has a matchup against Deng who really is not used to playing post players . In other words give the Bulls something they havent seen and get bigger in the lane . This also allows for better more effective screening across the board for both JJ and Teague

The Bulls play Kurt Thomas at backup center when he comes into the game we now move Al to center and we go the high pick and role instead of trying to have Al post up one on one a great post defender.

When Marvin comes in off the bench he is matched up against Deng who played 40+ mpg in the last series the Bulls backup SF is basically Ronnie Brewer or Korver who Marvin both have advantages against in the post .

How do you have a +55 reputation rating?

I call it like I see it and I usually see the good in all things hawks but somethings just cannot be glossed over .

Marvin should never start for us again no matter what hes simply has shown us all that hes a bench player yet we keep forcing him into roles that he cannot possibly fulfill

We are playing the best rebounding team in the league and we decide to go small and go back to what has not worked in a long time the Al,Josh,Marvin frontline .

Teague is not ready hes not even on the street so there is no way he can turn the corner . BUT if you have to go to him right now you surely dont go back to the no energy complacent frontline that we know is finished.

Id rather have us big on that frontline so offensively we can set some good screens from anywhere and Teague can use that quickness to dart into the lane from around them.

I just feel that when you are playing a good team like the Bulls you dont throw out a bunch of "IFs " and these changes + Josh = a bunch of Ifs

You cannot double team Derrick Rose because he's too quick. He will blow right by them. It's stupid because it leaves guys wide open like Korver for 3 pointers, it gets more guys in foul trouble, and it leaves more guys out of position for defensive rebounding.

If we single cover rose

-Deng, Noah, and Boozer will be forced to create their own offense

-Horford and Josh Smith can stay out of foul trouble that they would get trying to help on Rose

-Horford and Josh Smith won't be out of position for rebounding on plays they help out and don't get called for fouls

If you think Derrick Rose will get easier dunks to the rim than Dwight Howard, then feel free to believe that. But in reality there is no way a GUARD is going to do better than 27 PPG shooting 63% from the field. Michael freaking Jordan couldn't do better than that.

We cannot get owned by one player in one on one coverage more than Dwight Howard owned us.

You talk about momentum. Momentum happens when you get teammates involved. If you make a team one dimensional offensively it even defensively makes a team suffer which is crucial on a team with as elite a defense as the Bulls

listen to yourself

We cant double him because hes too quick but one guy can stay in front of him ?

KORVER DOES NOT START FOR THE BULLS KEITH BOGANS STARTS

I want Bogans shooting as many jumpshots as possible heck we all should

It doesnt get anyone in foul trouble because no other Bulls draw fouls besides Deng and Boozer who is hurt .

You trap off of Bogans if they decide to put Korver in well doesnt that matchup now overwhelmingly slide to JJs favor ?

If we single cover Rose they will simply run there offensive sets and Rose will be in the lane all game getting layups

It sounds to me that you are saying that when Rose goes around his man and he will no one else should help just let him score .

Why didnt Orlando do the same thing for Joe then or Crawford ? Do you understand why teams double ? They double because they are not stupid enough to believe they are gonna score everytime down the floor.

OMG you dont understand what we were even trying to do with Dwight . Our defensive philosophy against Orlando was designed to stop the three point shooting that is what drove Orlandos game and got them fired up. We werent trying to shut down everyone else we simply felt that they could not beat us without the three ball and they couldnt .

Derrick Rose is the Bulls offense he doesnt create any ONE thing that everyone else relies on he creates EVERYTHING THEY RELY ON the key is that he doesnt do it all with isolation

We need this first game so you have to give them something they havent seen from us . Thats why you double ,trap etc late in the clock after hes made his initial pass and has cut through and gotten the ball back because now its ten seconds on the clock and if you get it out of his hands it forces Bogans ,Noah Boozer,Gibson to actually make a move when the clock is running down.

Its about knowing there personnel and how they use them . The biggest mistake you are making is dreaming that if Rose gets around his guy that he will simply pull up for a long jumper when the fact is he is going straight to the basket and if no one helps which is what you are saying he will he will make enough to give them a nice lead and you know how well we play when we are down big . Nevermind that we are playing the best defensive team in the league and one of the better rebounding teams as well.

Teague starting + Marvins re-insertion into the starting lineup = we are down by double digits by the time the first sub comes in

We're definitely going to miss Kirk's simple offense.

But, I wouldn't put all the weight on Craw.

I have a very simple thought for our defense.

Use the same tactic we used on Dwight....

Let Rose have his monster games but cut off everybody else.

We don't have one defender suitable to stop Rose from Scoring, but we can certainly stop everybody else.

There's a simple Psychology and Philosophy to this that never fails. The rest of the team quits. Rose is not going to score 100 4 times in a row.

But defensively, the Hawks have to cut off passing lanes. Keep the ball in Rose's hands. And use Teague, Wilkins, and Sy's fouls wisely. Lenny Wilkins would be great here. His defenses use to funnel PGs to Deke. His teams knew how to cut off passing lanes so that the PGs ended up having to score over the best shot blocker in the game. The only way to beat that Hawks team was to shoot over it or to get the refs to help you get to the foul line. Well, that's what we need. Matchup Teague, Wilkins, and Sy one on one with Rose. Cut off his passing lanes with a man defense. Make Rose beat us.

that strategy wont work

The Magic perimeter players confidence came from them making threes so we took away easy three point shots by not doubling Dwight

The Bulls players confidence comes from Derrick Rose and his ability to control the tempo of the game .

You dont want him to get going that only feeds the confidence of the rest of the team

You want to make the others make plays and when they cant it will cause Rose to press harder which in turn will increase the pressure on everyone on the team who has never made it this far before.

When we came back to win what happened ? Rose's shots stopped falling and as the rest of the Bulls was being forced to make plays and couldnt the pressure on Rose to make plays got greater and it played right into our hands.

You have to look at how the Bulls win games

Rose basically keeps his team in it and then at the end of the game opponents decide we have to get it out of his hands and then he makes one pass and a Korver or Bogans or Deng makes ONE shots at the right time.

What you want to do is increase the pressure on them to make shots throughout the whole game

With Boozer ailing its even more important in game one that we force other Bulls to make shots and be ready to play . They have had time off they havent been past he first rd as a group before so you catch these guys mentally unprepared to be big contributors.

Look at the 3 pt shooting

Let Rose shoot his jumper

Close out on Deng and Korver HARD

everyone else ...good luck if you can make 8+ shots in game shake there hands and walk off

no one on that team besides Rose,Boozer,Deng,Korver can make shots consistently

You take away Roses attempts and his league gifted free throws attempts and now Boozer who is hurting needs to step up and make more shots and Deng and Korver .

You have to look at how how the Bulls have to play to win and then take them out of that comfort zone.

NO it won't. IF we let Rose get 30 to 40 points with basically no assists, we can maybe hold the Bulls team to 80 point range. If we let Rose get his AND double and triple team him it will be like when we tried to double and triple team Howard and Rose will get his AND his teammates will get theirs. That's how the Bulls would score 100+ points and we would get destroyed because we aren't going to score more than the 80 range on them

We can't stop him even if we double him, so let him get his. But force Noah, Boozer, and Deng to create their own offense.

If we can't afford anything it's allowing those guys to get high percentage and easy looks. Then we have no chance. I really hope Larry Drew is aware enough to see this

You really arent paying attention

Your strategy that he wont get assists because no one will help ignores the fact that if no one helps he will be throwing down crushing dunks.

The Bulls offensive players are not nearly as explosive as the magic shooters

Why cant we stop him if we double him and get the ball out of his hands and make the likes of Keith Bogans make more shots

You have no concept of basketball strategy there are things called momentum .

The Magics confidence didnt feed off Dwight they fed off the threes . Derrick Roses supporting cast confidence feeds off of his play when he doesnt play well they struggle badly you dont want him doing whatever he wants

.

To beat the Bulls in a 7 game series we have to get ahead and to do that we need to disrupt what they do

Double Rose primarily from Bogans while attacking Deng,Rose, and Boozer offensively

If we take game one that puts them in a position they have never been in before . Rose will then force the issue more we saw this against the Pacers they simply didnt have enough offense to take advantage of it as the series went alone

The key is you dont just employ just one strategy you employ several and keep making adjustments the key is to get hem playing catchup.

If we win game one you employ some zone in game two you double team other players like Korver or Deng at various times .

You have to take that team out of its comfort zone and that comfort zone is Derrick Rose playing well ....everything they do offensively is based on that .

This is needed to help weaken the role players mentally and break that great team defense they have

As a basketball fan, I have to wonder why no one is giving us a chance against Chicago. We match up well against them. I know that Hinrich is out but even if he wasn't hurt people wouldn't give us any better chance. Look at their games with the Pacers it wasn't like they blew them away every game. We are a superior team than the Pacers. Are we hated that much that common sense totally leaves the equation that we can win or go 7 games? Am I missing something here?

The team with the league MVP swill always be favored against a team with no superstars so I can see why the national media picks the way they do .

From a personal standpoint Im sorta disappointed that we have went back to the same pre trade stuff that wasnt working .

IMO the starting lineup that includes Josh,Marvin,Al,or should never be used again . We should be moving on from that lineup as a franchise .

This series is over before it starts if we play Crawford strictly at SG.

WHY NOT?

People say because Dwight plays 5 feet from the basket. WHo cares if Derrick Rose is 30 feet from the basket? Make Jeff Teague shadow him all around the court. No switching on any pick and rolls. And go underneath every single one of them.

When he penetrates, stay on your man. Make him score.

I don't know why psychologically people think it would be worse for him to score at will than it would Dwight when Dwight scoring at will is actually more dangerous because he was doing so shooting 60% from the FIELD and 67% True Shooting Percentage!

Even if Rose is a far better FT shooter, there is no way he has a 67% true shooting percentage vs us even if we leave him WIDE OPEN

You dont seem to understand what was going on .

We were not allowing Dwight to score at will we simply didnt help because there entire offense was based on people helping on Dwight which in turn freed up there deadly three point shooting .

We had someone between Dwight and the basket pretty much at all times if he managed to get by them he scored .

To suggest that we simply dont help on Derrick Rose because he wont make all the layups is crazy

We didnt want the magic three point shooters to get clean open looks but against the Bulls we want anyone else on that team, shooting besides Rose .

THEY ARE NOT A GOOD OFFENSIVE TEAM so why would you want there best scorer to roam free .

I really think this injury is gonna kill us not only defensively, but offensively as well. The closing line up of Kirk-Jamal-and Joe spread the court and we had 3 players who are capable of creating and hitting big shots.. Now Marvin's role in late game situations will probably become very important. I assume we will close with Jamal-Joe-Marv-Josh-Al. I don't know about you guys, but I am not a huge fan of Jamal at the point, I just don't think it works. He can create very good for himself, but i'd rather have him being set up by off screens for catch and shoot opportunities. The balls stays still when Jamal and Joe play the point.

A big question I have is about the Rose situation. I do NOT want Jamal guarding him. I suppose Teague will start and guard him, but Teague won't be in the game late in the 4th. Do you think we should try Joe on him? Maybe Damien Wilkins? This situation really confuses me with only one point guard on the team now. Larry Drew has some big decisions to make.

Thoughts?

last time we beat the Bulls who was at point ?

what was he doing ?

dropping dimes to Al and Marvin to close out the game

Our most consistent offensive play is a Jamal/Al pick and roll.

To be honest we need to stop trying to wish it away and do what needs to be done .

Jamal has risen to ever challenge presented to him and so we shouldnt be ignoring the 25 ton Gorilla in the room .

We are gonna have to ask jamal to play some defense

now when everyone stops laughing and thinks about it they will come to the same conclusion .

We dont need him to turn into GP over night we just need him to play the best basketball of his career for the next two weeks .

Its not about Teague lol people going there are simply afraid to face reality

Its not about Teague ,Joe or Damien its about Jamal Crawford accepting the challenge of Derrick Rose.

How can you complain about Josh on the perimeter shooting jumpers when he is playing SF?

Why would we bet on Jason Collins again? That is a better question.

I dont think we should start Collins I think we should start Zaza

playing SF doesnt mean you shoot jumpshots

I think Jeff Teague should play 10 feet away from him and dare him to shoot. And we should not give any help whatsoever. It sounds so crazy but what people are faiiling to realize especially the people bashing the Hawks saying they have no chance to stop Derrick Rose, we don't have to.

He could put up Michael Jordan numbers. As long as we don't let anyone on any given day play like Scottie Pippen we have a chance

Cant play Rose like Dwight because they dont play the same type of game . You knew Dwight would be within 5 feet of the basket at all times but would also need someone to get him the ball. Rose will have the ball most of teh time hes in the game and be all over the floor .

You want him to take those threes but you also have to mix it up and you want Bogans shooting and you want Boozer whose been horrible and injured to have to make a play . The more we make Rose work and the more pressure it is to force everyone else to have to consistently step up the better it is for us as the series goes on .

The key is to get ahead thats why if you want to spring a surprise you do it in game one just like against the Magic because once you get behind those shots that you used to launch so carefree become harder and harder to take . We get ahead and Rose will try and play hero the next few games and it will play right into our hands just like the magic

the Pacers had them but they had no one else besides Granger who could really score

I keep hearing everyone on sports talk saying the Hawks need to stay big on the Bulls. I don't understand. Collins calling was to guard Howard. He is an offensive liability (being generous) and horrible rebounder (so the stay big to improve rebounding is false). Getting rid of the big lineup will make Horford better offensively and defensively IMO (Plus he knows Noah more than anyone), Keep Josh Smith away from the perimeter and if Marvin keeps up his jumper makes us a better overall threat.

Why would would we bet on Marvin again ? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I applaud those who are still optimistic. My eyes got a little watery. I'm tipsy right now. I'm sure Derrick is throwing a party. He's gonna go atom bomb on us.

On a side note, I know it goes in Around the League, but I hope Al was watching and DVRing Z-Bo this series. His undersized, and underathletic post play took me back to a more rugged, but beautiful time of extremely tough, yet highly technical post positioning, catching, and finishing at all costs. I got excited watching him spin, duck, leverage, and power his way to operate on his own terms on the block, IN CRUNCH TIME.

Back to my team, everyone needs to play that much harder now that Kirk is gone. F$&k.

Let's go still, but damn. Bartender!!! 3 more.

we have so many options defensively against rose is not even funny . Hes not what Im worried about what Im worried about is the hawks fans so quick to want to jump back to the same lineup thats played out and that we know has run its course .

Al,JJ,Josh,Marvin as 4/5 th of a starting unit should be over . It hasnt been effective in over a year and its time to move on .

Once you factor in the fact that we are playing a team whose coach has seen and planned for that quartet in the playoffs ....THIBS !!

If we trot out the same stuff weve done the past two years we are gonna get pounded .

This is why Im in favor of starting Zaza and even Craw because it throws a wrench into things and forced him to have to defer from his Bostons notes

Even if we just started Zaza that would be a huge difference

Zaza-Noah

Al-Boozer

Josh-Deng

With the struggles of Boozer and his injury why would willingly put someone on him (Josh) who knowingly take himself out of the series by standing on the perimeter shooting jumpsuits against a slow footed injured PF ?

Id go zone heck at this rate you would Zaza,Al,Josh ,Joe ,jamal in a zone in a huge zone at times and use our size and length to our advantages .

We are in it as long as we are proactive not reactive

Why does everyone think that Derrick Rose is some kind of God, is it because he is an athletic guard who plays for the Bulls??? We can use his ego to our advantage, if ya'll have noticed, Rose isn't the best with making decisions, he averages way too many turnovers. If we just pressure him or trap him we can win, we have to use his advantage as an iso player to our advantage, just like teams trap JJ all the time.

exactly if our entire plan was based around one guy defending him we are dead before it starts .

Crawford is an good, but very streaky scorer who has to dominate the ball. Crawford can't play of lick of defense.

Teague can play at least 1:1 defense on Rose to at least make him uncomfortable.

Thus, "best player" in this case is subjective. Cawford is a far superior offensive player than Teague, but Teague is the superior defensive player. We can get offense from Horford in this series to make up for what you loose with Crawford not starting.

Playoff basketball is a chess match. You exploit your advantages and undermine your enemy's advantages.

Crawford on Rose is going to be an epic fail.

well then we already have lost because without Craw we are not gonna win this series .

Some of you need to to come to grips that Rose is gonna get his regardless but basically allowing him to rest on defense while abusing Teague on offense simply plays into there hands .

Why do you think Horford can make up Hinrichs 11+ points when hes scoring only 11 points per game on 37% shooting ?

Crawford at PG is one of our advantages if you think we can suddenly abandon it and still win your kidding yourself.

Starting teague would be a sign of desperation if you wouldnt play him against the Magic why would you suddenly throw him out there against the league MVP.

The Bulls starting lineup as we know it

Noah

Boozer (has turf toe)

Deng

Bogans

Rose

If Kirk is only gonna miss game one this is the lineup I propose

Zaza

Al

Smoove

JJ

Crawford

that makes us HUGE

We use that size to trap Rose using both guards and force Bogans to beat us from the outside

On offense whoever Rose takes we use our size to run him off a constant barrage of screens

Now of course of the Bulls will try and counter with Korver for Bogans but when they do that JJ offensively runs right into the post as he will have either Rose or or Korver on him

On defense when Korver comes in the key is to trap him as well why ? because you want the likes of Noah having to make plays with the ball offensively .

Now the Bulls after the success they had with Kurt Thomas on Al will go to that again I am betting they do and we should be ready for it by putting Kurt Thomas in a ton of screen and roll situation where Al doesnt just shoot the jumper but rolls to the basket .

Indiana was able to wear down Rose by putting the 6'8 George on him and the 6'6 Dahntay Jones on him but they never could put the offensive pressure on him on the other end to make the Bulls change what they do .

Thibs is a great strategists but hes the same guy who came up with the Celts defensive strategy and we know how to beat that strategy.

He is probably telling them right now strategy based on what he saw against the pacers and the regular season and we need to throw a wrench into that .

The Bulls are limited in what they can do because its basically the Rose shows but our versatility allows us to do so much more .